Problem of suffering, free will, and Heaven

[Nakosis]

First of all, this is the way most interpretations of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam practice their faith. For example the Catholic Church which likes to boast about the hundreds of millions of people who believe in their doctrine, do believe in these things. They believe in eternal Heaven with access based on actions in life. They believe in Satan and the almighty deistic/theistic God.

I wonder if we stereotype religious folks too much. Maybe there are some the stereotype fits. Usually not. Satan, Hell, eternal torture, maybe that's the Hollywood version of Christianity.

Methodist is not like that, 7th Adventist, there was nothing like that. Many Christians I talk to disagree with this stereotype. Quakers, Gnostics... A number of Christians groups don't fit this stereotype. Then you want to lump Islam and Judaism in there as well.

Maybe it not so easy to find a Christian which believes how you think they believe.

 

[George-ananda]

I wonder if we stereotype religious folks too much. Maybe there are some the stereotype fits. Usually not. Satan, Hell, eternal torture, maybe that's the Hollywood version of Christianity.

Agree. I think the world is becoming better educated, thought out and people are becoming more exposed to new ideas. Satan, eternal torture.....I don't hear modern more liberal thinking Christians talking about this. I think the new Pope is even trying to liberalize the thinking but must move slowly by de-emphasizing the things above and emphasizing service and brotherly love. It seems more the atheists that want to drag Christianity back a century.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I wonder if we stereotype religious folks too much. Maybe there are some the stereotype fits. Usually not. Satan, Hell, eternal torture, maybe that's the Hollywood version of Christianity.

Catholic theology has more depth and nuance than that, as well.

 

[ruffen]

Catholic theology has more depth and nuance than that, as well.

More depth and nuance, perhaps, but Catholic theology does include one supreme being, able to intervene with the world, and who knows we suffer.

It does also include the story of a man/deity being sacrificed for the world, by haning on a cross for a day (a walk in the park compared to some of the diseases out there), so that God could forgive us for the flaws that he gave us.

If it does not, I'd like to hear the more nuanced version, or solution to the problem of evil that neither brings evil into Heaven (if that is a direct consequence of having free will), nor removes free will in Heaven (zombie prison), and yet explains why there is evil on Earth.

 

[Hawkins]

Here's my take on the problem of evil and suffering, free will, and Heaven...

Or rather the first question is, is human intelligence unlimited? Or is human intelligence limited and may possibly be unable to understand God's plan/intention completely.

God's ultimate purpose is to build an eternity called heaven. He's working towards this goal. Not as you said in OP that His purpose is to reward humans on earth. Heaven is not the reward, it is the purpose He's working towards.

However, out of human arrogance, humans usually assume that today's humans are God's whole purpose and heaven becomes a less important place for the reward of men on earth.

That said, planet earth is a place outside God's realm. This is so ever since Adam was kicked out of Eden. Eden on the other hand is a godly place, not earth.

Once it is outside God's realm, earth becomes a wilderness full of wolves. It's naturally so. Any place outside God's realm is naturally a place where evil grows freely. Wolves and beasts are supposed to be everywhere. Earth is already a better place. It is so because God still has a job to do on earth. Earth is still a better place then hell because God still cares.

Now what does He care? His sheep are still among the wolves in the wilderness. That's why.

Planet earth thus is a place described as,

1) a wilderness full of wolves (including beasts like Satan), mixed together with God's lost sheep
2) a crop field of God where in the end some souls will come out as God's harvest
3) a large filter to sift out the unqualified for God a get His wheat as His products
4) a field where weeds grows with wheat. Once they can be told apart, God will get the wheat and burn the weeds

I think that if you can read the Bible more wisely, you may figure out all the answers to those questions in OP. People don't get the answers because human intelligence is the biggest issue of the arrogant humans themselves, without their own self awareness.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

More depth and nuance, perhaps, but Catholic theology does include one supreme being, able to intervene with the world, and who knows we suffer.

It does also include the story of a man/deity being sacrificed for the world, by haning on a cross for a day (a walk in the park compared to some of the diseases out there), so that God could forgive us for the flaws that he gave us.

If it does not, I'd like to hear the more nuanced version, or solution to the problem of evil that neither brings evil into Heaven (if that is a direct consequence of having free will), nor removes free will in Heaven (zombie prison), and yet explains why there is evil on Earth.

Suffering exists because the universe is imperfect. In Christianity, we believe that the universe is moving towards a future perfection and unity with God. Moreover, we don't believe that this life is all that there is. We believe the soul is immoral. This is more of a place to learn and experience, and that includes suffering. Even God experienced suffering and death. But we are not powerless. We have the choice to make this world a better place or not. Our nature may have the possibility for great wrong, but it also has the possibility for great good, righteousness and holiness. We are rational creatures and were given the option to work with God in His plan to make the world a better place.

Without suffering, we wouldn't be able to exercise charity. When people are sick, we are to show care and compassion towards them.

In Heaven, people are not zombies. They have just decided to strive towards holiness and so have reached unity with God. I don't know where you get the idea that free will always results in evil since free will is what gives us the ability to choose the good. It's like how only 1/3 of the Angels revolted, but the rest choose to remain in unity with God.

 

[Susanpalli,JW]

I believe that God allows suffering for a reason and He will intervene in his due time, just as He did in Noah's day. As Jesus explained, the time will come when we will see that we cannot survive, and before we completely destroy the earth, he and his angels will destroy those who are destroying the earth. If you wish to, check out Matthew 24:21-22 and Revelation 11:18.

 

[ruffen]

That said, planet earth is a place outside God's realm. This is so ever since Adam was kicked out of Eden. Eden on the other hand is a godly place, not earth.

Once it is outside God's realm, earth becomes a wilderness full of wolves. It's naturally so. Any place outside God's realm is naturally a place where evil grows freely.

So then the fact that we all live outside of God's realm, is because of what God did to Adam and Eve. We could have continued to live within God's realm, but he condemned humanity to millennia of suffering due to some design he created (ie. trap).

And yes, we may not understand God's plan, but then he should be wise enough not to deny anyone Heaven or to punish anyone in any way for not understanding it, or even believing that he is an old fairytale.

If God truly cares about us, why would he kick the entire species out of his realm and into the world of wolves and beasts and sickness and suffering? If that is the case, it's obvious that we haven't got our moral and ethical intuitions or philosophy from our God. We are morally superior to God.

 

[ruffen]

Suffering exists because the universe is imperfect. In Christianity, we believe that the universe is moving towards a future perfection and unity with God. Moreover, we don't believe that this life is all that there is. We believe the soul is immoral. This is more of a place to learn and experience, and that includes suffering. Even God experienced suffering and death. But we are not powerless. We have the choice to make this world a better place or not. Our nature may have the possibility for great wrong, but it also has the possibility for great good, righteousness and holiness. We are rational creatures and were given the option to work with God in His plan to make the world a better place.

If suffering is so that our immortal soul can learn, why do lessons vary so wildly? Why do someone go through life in good health and wealth and have everything they need, while others live as poor and die from horrible disease as kids? It doesn't make sense.

And you speak of humanity that "we" have the option to work with God, but we are not one mind. People are different and pull in different directions. If God relies on our efforts to make the world a better place, he must surely know that people will not agree on what is good and what is right, or which God we should work with and what he wants us to do.

Without suffering, we wouldn't be able to exercise charity. When people are sick, we are to show care and compassion towards them.

So the sick and poor are mere props for us righteous to pity so that God will smile upon us? Without suffering we wouldn't be able to exercise charity, yes, but then again, without suffering we wouldn't need to exercise charity. So does this mean that in order for us to be able to exercise charity, we need to give to the poor but not end poverty? Pity the miserable, but not end their misery?

In Heaven, people are not zombies. They have just decided to strive towards holiness and so have reached unity with God. I don't know where you get the idea that free will always results in evil since free will is what gives us the ability to choose the good. It's like how only 1/3 of the Angels revolted, but the rest choose to remain in unity with God.

The idea that free will inevitably leads to evil is the standard answer religious people give when confronted with the problem of evil. But of course now I understand that evil and suffering is on Earth to allow some of us to pity the victims in order to have that smug righteous smile on our faces knowing that this is what the Lord wants.

 

[Susanpalli,JW]

So then the fact that we all live outside of God's realm, is because of what God did to Adam and Eve. We could have continued to live within God's realm, but he condemned humanity to millennia of suffering due to some design he created (ie. trap).

And yes, we may not understand God's plan, but then he should be wise enough not to deny anyone Heaven or to punish anyone in any way for not understanding it, or even believing that he is an old fairytale.

If God truly cares about us, why would he kick the entire species out of his realm and into the world of wolves and beasts and sickness and suffering? If that is the case, it's obvious that we haven't got our moral and ethical intuitions or philosophy from our God. We are morally superior to God.

I understand how you could think that. But if you take a look at the beginning of creation, everything God made was good, according to the Genesis account. He gave Adam and Eve free will to listen or not. When they chose their own will instead of God's, God allowed humankind to procreate and each one could chose for themselves, even in their sinful state, whether they would listen to God's law.
Because God's original purpose was to have an earthly paradise, He will restore it in due time by means of Jesus. Our future is bright! If you wish check out Revelation chapter 21 . It is exciting!

 

[ruffen]

I believe that God allows suffering for a reason and He will intervene in his due time, just as He did in Noah's day. As Jesus explained, the time will come when we will see that we cannot survive, and before we completely destroy the earth, he and his angels will destroy those who are destroying the earth. If you wish to, check out Matthew 24:21-22 and Revelation 11:18.

In Noah's day? Okay, this is not the right thread to go into the evidence for/agains a young Earth and a global flood myth, so I'll resist the urge. :angel2:

Umm... angels will destroy those who are destroying the Earth? If you actually believe the Noah story, the greates destructive power this world has ever seen, was God, not humans. He killed them all!! All the newborn innocent babies (who were of course guilty because of wrong blood lines in the eyes of a racist monster God). All the people who might actually be good on Earth. All those animals that didn't get on the boat! All those bears! And dogs! And birds! And giraffes!! At least the giraffes died last when the waters rose, due to their long necks...

So now God allows suffering, and then one day he will "intervene" in his eh... not very detailed... way, by committing genocide and mass murder and showing nothign but wrath and hatred.

Because that is how God is described in the Old Testament. That is the God of the Noah story. It is an angry God that kills EVERYTHING except for those 8 people and 2-7 pairs of each animal. And that's even without touching on the silliness of the story itself.

God's solution when things went wrong and his creatures didn't behave as he expected or wanted them to: Kill them! All of them!

To me, that is evil, no matter what his plan was.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If suffering is so that our immortal soul can learn, why do lessons vary so wildly? Why do someone go through life in good health and wealth and have everything they need, while others live as poor and die from horrible disease as kids? It doesn't make sense.

And how exactly is social inequality God's fault? Many of those diseases are treatable, but they aren't treated because humans created an evil system that decides worth based something as arbitrary and stupid as whether you have money.

And you speak of humanity that "we" have the option to work with God, but we are not one mind. People are different and pull in different directions. If God relies on our efforts to make the world a better place, he must surely know that people will not agree on what is good and what is right, or which God we should work with and what he wants us to do.

Well, as a Christian, I believe that Jesus made it pretty clear on what He wants us to do and how we can make the world a better place.

So the sick and poor are mere props for us righteous to pity so that God will smile upon us? Without suffering we wouldn't be able to exercise charity, yes, but then again, without suffering we wouldn't need to exercise charity. So does this mean that in order for us to be able to exercise charity, we need to give to the poor but not end poverty? Pity the miserable, but not end their misery?

Have you ever thought that maybe this was all a learning process? Humans created and sustain most of the conditions of suffering in the world today. Where is our empathy and our compassion? We could end poverty. We can heal many of the diseases that afflict us, or at least make them livable. But why don't we do it? I think it's cheap to blame God when we can do so much, but choose not to. God offers us a simple solution - love your neighbor as yourself. But we don't do it. So the suffering continues. But perhaps you must go through an experience of suffering in order to appreciate the good. Like I said, it's a learning process.

When humans have eradicated suffering and live in perfect love with each other, then we will be a holy species.

The idea that free will inevitably leads to evil is the standard answer religious people give when confronted with the problem of evil.

Well, whoever says that is wrong. Free will just gives us the ability to make own choices, for good or bad.

But of course now I understand that evil and suffering is on Earth to allow some of us to pity the victims in order to have that smug righteous smile on our faces knowing that this is what the Lord wants.

And that's not what I said at all, as I've explained above.

 

[Susanpalli,JW]

In Noah's day? Okay, this is not the right thread to go into the evidence for/agains a young Earth and a global flood myth, so I'll resist the urge. :angel2:

Umm... angels will destroy those who are destroying the Earth? If you actually believe the Noah story, the greates destructive power this world has ever seen, was God, not humans. He killed them all!! All the newborn innocent babies (who were of course guilty because of wrong blood lines in the eyes of a racist monster God). All the people who might actually be good on Earth. All those animals that didn't get on the boat! All those bears! And dogs! And birds! And giraffes!! At least the giraffes died last when the waters rose, due to their long necks...

So now God allows suffering, and then one day he will "intervene" in his eh... not very detailed... way, by committing genocide and mass murder and showing nothign but wrath and hatred.

Because that is how God is described in the Old Testament. That is the God of the Noah story. It is an angry God that kills EVERYTHING except for those 8 people and 2-7 pairs of each animal. And that's even without touching on the silliness of the story itself.

God's solution when things went wrong and his creatures didn't behave as he expected or wanted them to: Kill them! All of them!

To me, that is evil, no matter what his plan was.

Again I can understand your point of view. However if God can read our hearts, and can see that evil ones will never change, I believe it is his right to protect the good people who love and obey him. Imagine God allowing pedophiles, murderers, thieves, etc to continue to exist in the paradise. Would it then be a paradise?

 

[ruffen]

Again I can understand your point of view. However if God can read our hearts, and can see that evil ones will never change, I believe it is his right to protect the good people who love and obey him. Imagine God allowing pedophiles, murderers, thieves, etc to continue to exist in the paradise. Would it then be a paradise?

But if paradise should only contain those who are guaranteed not to do any evil actions, not for a hundred years or a thousand, or even a billion years, but eternity, then the place will be quite empty.

I do not believe that some people are evil and some are good and that will never change. That is too simple. Let anyone live a billion years, and they've done something horrible. Let anyone experience enough bad things in their life, and they may turn to evil. Let anyone who has done something evil reflect and be educated and learn from their deeds, and maybe, after a millennium or two, they would be good again. I'm not sayng that anyone could be a pedophile, I'm talking about evil acts in general.

And if God decides to once again flush everyone down the toilet except for his 8 favourite humans, it would be best for both God and me if I'm not one of the chosen ones to get into paradise with him, because I don't think I'd be able to "love" or "serve" such a cruel deity. I'd probably be constantly plotting against him.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I believe that God allows suffering for a reason and He will intervene in his due time, just as He did in Noah's day. As Jesus explained, the time will come when we will see that we cannot survive, and before we completely destroy the earth, he and his angels will destroy those who are destroying the earth. If you wish to, check out Matthew 24:21-22 and Revelation 11:18.

That is hardly compatible with an omni-benevolent deity who it is claimed: knows our sufferings.

A loving god would not just let extreme suffering go on, unless he lacks power to stop it, in which case he could not be omnipotent. Yet most sects of Christianty affirm both.

 

[ruffen]

Especially if, as is also claimed, we have our morals from God and that he is our moral compass and guidance. That he is the definition of "good". And that he somehow made us in his image. If that were true, why would God's idea of "good" be so completely different from our idea of "good"?

And for those who actually believe in the story about Noah and the flood:

Or is there anyone in this thread that actually thinks that drowning the entire world's population is a good or wise way of fixing evil people? And in the next page of the Bible, did it work or was it a fail of biblical proportions?

Wouldn't it be nicer and wiser of God to get down here and teach people how to be genuinely good instead of just drowning them all?

Of course a couple of thousand years later he sent Jesus but that didn't help those who drowned. Shouldn't a good God who wished for us to be good, have several Christ's (ie. physical manifestations of himself) walking the Earth and demonstrating his existence and teaching people all over the world and of all ethnicities how to be good at any given moment in time?

Nah, it's easier to just flush them all down the drain and then hide.

 

[Susanpalli,JW]

But if paradise should only contain those who are guaranteed not to do any evil actions, not for a hundred years or a thousand, or even a billion years, but eternity, then the place will be quite empty.

I do not believe that some people are evil and some are good and that will never change. That is too simple. Let anyone live a billion years, and they've done something horrible. Let anyone experience enough bad things in their life, and they may turn to evil. Let anyone who has done something evil reflect and be educated and learn from their deeds, and maybe, after a millennium or two, they would be good again. I'm not sayng that anyone could be a pedophile, I'm talking about evil acts in general.

And if God decides to once again flush everyone down the toilet except for his 8 favourite humans, it would be best for both God and me if I'm not one of the chosen ones to get into paradise with him, because I don't think I'd be able to "love" or "serve" such a cruel deity. I'd probably be constantly plotting against him.

I understand your point of view, and part of what you say is exactly how I understand what the Bible explains in Revelation chapters 20 and 21
Christ will put Satan and the demons in the abyss for 1000 years,
Millennial rule of Christ begins (there will be new laws)
The new earth will become a paradise with those who have chosen to follow Jesus' headship. There will be a very large number who choose life on the new earth.(Revelation 7:9)

 

[Susanpalli,JW]

That is hardly compatible with an omni-benevolent deity who it is claimed: knows our sufferings.

A loving god would not just let extreme suffering go on, unless he lacks power to stop it, in which case he could not be omnipotent. Yet most sects of Christianty affirm both.

I can understand your point of view. After studying the question myself, I have found the book of Job gives us insight as to why God momentarily allows suffering.
In chapters 1-3 Satan questioned Job's motives, and God allowed Job to be tested by Satan to prove that one could be faithful under intense trials.

His suffering was only temporary, and in chapter 42, we see the outcome. Job was blessed even more than he was in the beginning.

After reading Revelation 21:3-5, I conclude that God will put an end to all suffering. Humanity will also be blessed in the new earth.

 

[Koldo]

I'd like to hear your arguments.

Screams. Lots of them. Not coming from me. :162:

 

[Koldo]

Satan, eternal torture.....I don't hear modern more liberal thinking Christians talking about this. I think the new Pope is even trying to liberalize the thinking but must move slowly by de-emphasizing the things above and emphasizing service and brotherly love. It seems more the atheists that want to drag Christianity back a century.

You clearly haven't heard about brazilian churches.
Satan is still all the buzz around here.