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Problems vs. Solutions and criticizing (e.g.), BLM

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
We could pursue an interesting discussion on what stats are relevant. For example is it more relevant to talk about ratios based on population or based on encounters?

But to reiterate what I just said to @PureX , what I'm really "on about" is the claim that "the rest of us need to stay in our lane". That's the crux of the OP and while I'm happy to keep discussing it, it might be that we just have to agree to disagree.

But in sense it is not that we have to stay in our lane, because we are all in the same society, our society, but what you fail to understand, is that it is a lie. Society is not the same to all of us, because it impacts us differently and that is what you in the end deny.
You claim authority over our society based on your understanding of it and what you consider relevant as an expert, because you are apparently more rational than the average human. That seems to be it.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
It seems that there are irreconcilable perspectives.
This leads to talking past each other.
To some....
"We must focus only upon BLM."
To Justin Bieber....
"No lives matter until black lives matter."
To others....
"There are larger problems which encompass BLM."

The 1st is understandable, ie, people care about themselves
before others. And there are like minded white folk.
It's not at all wrong.

The 2nd is forgivable cuz he's from Ameristan's hat.

The last one is best if one wants to actually solve problems.
Because to eliminate disparate effects by reducing wrongful
shooting of blacks to the same frequency as wrongful shootings
of whites is no solution at all. Policing has problems far greater
than racism these days.
You realize that you can acknowledge a particular problem while also playing an active role in solving larger problems, right?

This is kind of like responding to somebody whose house is on fire by saying "Looks, lots of people's houses catch on fire, not just yours! Rather than working on putting out your fire, we need to focus on making sure we prevent all fires everywhere. Once we've done that, your whole 'my house is on fire' issue will be solved!"
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You realize that you can acknowledge a particular problem while also playing an active role in solving larger problems, right?
Sure.
But not everyone shares that perspective.
This is kind of like responding to somebody whose house is on fire by saying "Looks, lots of people's houses catch on fire, not just yours! Rather than working on putting out your fire, we need to focus on making sure we prevent all fires everywhere. Once we've done that, your whole 'my house is on fire' issue will be solved!"
I can fix your analogy.....
Several houses are on fire. Let's put out all fires,
& save their homes, not just the one black family.
And some of us should simultaneously go stop
that arsonist from setting even more on fire.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Sure.
But not everyone shares that perspective.
You keep saying that. Who specifically is calling for all of society to focus exclusively on one problem to the detriment of others?

I can fix your analogy.....
Several houses are on fire. Let's put out all fires,
& save their homes, not just the one black family.
And some of us should simultaneously go stop
that arsonist from setting even more on fire.
That doesn't actually touch my analogy, because your argument is based on putting out ALL fires before being able to deal with any single one of them. In order to put out the fires, you need to be able to say "hey, there's a fire here that needs to be put out" and be met with a response of "okay, let's put out that fire" rather than "sorry, but we need to talk about ALL fires before we even begin to consider putting out your specific fire".
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You keep saying that.
It's important, & often lost upon those with little tolerance for other views.
Who specifically is calling for all of society to focus exclusively on one problem to the detriment of others?
Justin Bieber, for one.
That doesn't actually touch my analogy, because your argument is based on putting out ALL fires before being able to deal with any single one of them. In order to put out the fires, you need to be able to say "hey, there's a fire here that needs to be put out" and be met with a response of "okay, let's put out that fire" rather than "sorry, but we need to talk about ALL fires before we even begin to consider putting out your specific fire".
My analogy is better because it's more applicable to real world problems,
ie, it faces both the individual immediate emergencies, & their cause.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
So do you or do you not understand that stating "the majority of people the police kill are white" is a misuse of statistics that creates an inaccurate impression of the actual problems of police violence against (and targeting of) black people?

I understand that most every such statistical can be used in a misleading fashion without context, yes.

Do you think YOU have a handle on stats that would leave a more accurate impression?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
We don't have 'encounters' data. Unless you count stuff like pullover or stops statistics which, yes, disproportionately affect POC. But police are going to 'encounter' a larger population demographic more than a smaller one. It's what they do after that which matters.

I believe we do have encounters data.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Well, I can't because I don't have access to all his work.

okay, just read his award-winning, best-selling book "Thinking, Fast and Slow"

So here is my summary: Your angle into understanding this is biased by the fact, that you rely on a single professor and his work. The world is a bit more complicated than that and indeed you have to read a lot of more books to learn to understand that. But I won't tell you what you have to read, because I accept that you do it differently than me and that you properly won't accept that I do it differently than you

strawman after strawman. i'm fine to leave it at that. have yourself a fine day.
 
@icehorse ,@Revoltingest ,@columbus ,

I'm reacting to this:

"
How many times per year do you think that happens? How many times per year do you think that happens to white people?

Is it a problem? Of course. But how big a problem really?"

Isn't this implying that "it" ( killing or harming unarmed citizens ) happens to white people just as much as non-white people? At the very least it minimizes / diminishes the extent of the problem?

If my own bias is interfering with my understanding of these words, please by all means correct me.

One perspective written by an African-American:

the basic premise of Black Lives Matter—that racist cops are killing unarmed black people—is false. There was a time when I believed it... Any suggestion to the contrary struck me as at best, ignorant, and at worst, bigoted.

My opinion has slowly changed. I still believe that racism exists and must be condemned in the strongest possible terms; I still believe that, on average, police officers are quicker to rough up a black or Hispanic suspect; and I still believe that police misconduct happens far too often and routinely goes unpunished. But I no longer believe that the cops disproportionately kill unarmed black Americans.

Two things changed my mind: stories and data.

First, the stories. Each story in this paragraph involves a police officer killing an unarmed white person. (To demonstrate how commonly this happens, I have taken all of them from a single year, 2015, chosen at random). Timothy Smith was killed by a police officer who mistakenly thought he was reaching into his waistband to grab a gun; the shooting was ruled justified. William Lemmon was killed after he allegedly failed to show his hands upon request; the shooting was ruled justified. Ryan Bolinger was shot dead by a cop who said he was moving strangely and walking toward her; the shooting was ruled justified. Derek Cruice was shot in the face after he opened the door for police officers serving a warrant for a drug arrest; the cops recovered marijuana from the property, and the shooting was ruled justified. Daniel Elrod robbed a dollar store, and, when confronted by police, allegedly failed to raise his hands upon request (though his widow, who witnessed the event, insists otherwise); he was shot dead. No criminal charges were filed. Ralph Willis was shot dead when officers mistakenly thought that he was reaching for a gun. David Cassick was shot twice in the back by a police officer while lying face down on the ground. Six-year-old Jeremy Mardis was killed by a police officer while sitting in the passenger seat of a car; the officer’s intended target was Jeremy’s father, who was sitting in the driver’s seat with his hands raised out the window. Autumn Steele was shot dead when a police officer, startled by her German shepherd, immediately fired his weapon at the animal, catching her in the crossfire. Shortly after he killed her, bodycam footage revealed the officer’s despair: “I’m f------ going to prison,” he says. The officer was not disciplined.

For brevity’s sake, I will stop here. But the list goes on.

For every black person killed by the police, there is at least one white person (usually many) killed in a similar way. The day before cops in Louisville barged into Breonna Taylor’s home and killed her, cops barged into the home of a white man named Duncan Lemp, killed him, and wounded his girlfriend (who was sleeping beside him). Even George Floyd, whose death was particularly brutal, has a white counterpart: Tony Timpa. Timpa was killed in 2016 by a Dallas police officer who used his knee to pin Timpa to the ground (face down) for 13 minutes. In the video, you can hear Timpa whimpering and begging to be let go. After he lets out his final breaths, the officers begin cracking jokes about him. Criminal charges initially brought against them were later dropped.

At a gut level, it is hard for most people to feel the same level of outrage when the cops kill a white person. Perhaps that is as it should be. After all, for most of American history, it was white suffering that provoked more outrage. But I would submit that if this new “anti-racist” bias is justified—if we now have a moral obligation to care more about certain lives than others based on skin color, or based on racial-historical bloodguilt—then everything that I thought I knew about basic morality, and everything that the world’s philosophical and religious traditions have been saying about common humanity, revenge, and forgiveness since antiquity, should be thrown out the window.

You might agree that the police kill plenty of unarmed white people, but object that they are more likely to kill unarmed black people, relative to their share of the population. That’s where the data comes in. The objection is true as far as it goes; but it’s also misleading. To demonstrate the existence of a racial bias, it’s not enough to cite the fact that black people comprise 14 percent of the population but about 35 percent of unarmed Americans shot dead by police. (By that logic, you could prove that police shootings were extremely sexist by pointing out that men comprise 50 percent of the population but 93 percent of unarmed Americans shot by cops.)

Instead, you must do what all good social scientists do: control for confounding variables to isolate the effect that one variable has upon another (in this case, the effect of a suspect’s race on a cop’s decision to pull the trigger). At least four careful studies have done this—one by Harvard economist Roland Fryer, one by a group of public-health researchers, one by economist Sendhil Mullainathan, and one by David Johnson, et al. None of these studies has found a racial bias in deadly shootings. Of course, that hardly settles the issue for all time; as always, more research is needed. But given the studies already done, it seems unlikely that future work will uncover anything close to the amount of racial bias that BLM protesters in America and around the world believe exists.

Stories and Data
 

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
As I just said to @ADigitalArtist, we could have an interesting, deep, lengthy discussion on what stats we might best bring to bear on this question. But I wasn't really trying to defend a particular statistical approach, again the bigger point is to question the entire "stay in your lane" meme.
How do you think should BLM go about implementing your idea of a classless society, and at what point in your plan do you think would it be time to adress the problem of racism?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I believe we do have encounters data.
Last I knew it was extremely poor data.

There's no federal requirements or standards for such data. Individual police departments report whatever they want, if they want to report. So, there really isn't good data.
Tom
 

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
From the article:
All of which makes my view of Black Lives Matter complicated. If not for BLM, we probably would not be talking about ending qualified immunity, making bodycams universal, increasing police accountability, and so forth—at least not to the same extent. In fact, we might not even have a careful national database on police shootings. At the same time, the core premise of the movement is false. And if not for the dissemination of this falsehood, social relations between blacks and whites would be less tense, trust in police would be higher, and businesses all across America might have been spared the looting and destruction that we have seen in recent weeks.
"The riots are all BLM's fault for lying about police statistics" has got to be one of the spiciest hot takes of this year so far.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
okay, just read his award-winning, best-selling book "Thinking, Fast and Slow" ...

You can't spot the problem, it appears. You take for granted that a single professor or 2 within a sub-flied of psychology can be applied one to one to society as such.

I read 3 summaries of the book and I was already aware of what it was about, because I had already come across the subject matter before.

What do you want me to do after I have read the book? I don't have to read it, I just have to read some summaries and 3 will do fine to understand what it is about. So what is it that you expect that will happen? Honestly, do you expect that I will magically agree with you based on one book about an aspect of being human?
icehorse, I am as honest as it gets. Do you honestly think that a book about some aspects and not all about human rationality and happiness will change what I know. I have been doing this for over 20 years now and here is what I have learned.
In dealing with humans you can't rely on just one book. You have to read a lot of them, learn to compare them and figure out how they work when they meet the everyday world.
 

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
They seem to be criticizing the bolded bit of the article, not Aug's post.
I didn't see it in the article either, including the entire one in the link.
To put a claim in quotation marks with the appearance of attribution
to the quoted post tells me it's a direct quote. Am I just missing it?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You could have used the barely four minutes it took you to write this reply to re-read my post; then, you likely would have noticed that I was, in fact, talking about the article @Augustus linked to in the post I responded to. In fact, I specifically mentioned that I got it from the article, and not their own post.
As I told the other poster, I read the linked article too.
I even searched it for portions of the quoted text, but
couldn't find any hits. Whence cometh the quote?

Btw....
The quote struck me as out of place in the post & in
the article, but rather than assume it was fabricated, I
questioned my thoroughness in reading.
 
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