Problems with the Trinity

[lostwanderingsoul]

The pledge to the American flag describes the country as "one nation, indivisible". One nation that cannot be divided. But the nation is divided into 50 states. It is divided by various religious and political ideas. It is divided by over 300 million individual citizens. If one indivisible country can be made up of over 300 million people then why can't one indivisible God be made up of more than one "person"? The Father and the Son are both God and this God will adopt thousands or millions of adopted children who will all be completely equal to their brother Jesus. God will not be two or three "persons" but millions. This is the amazing future of mankind that is completely overlooked by the idea that God is forever limited to being three.

 

[shunyadragon]

The pledge to the American flag describes the country as "one nation, indivisible". One nation that cannot be divided. But the nation is divided into 50 states. It is divided by various religious and political ideas. It is divided by over 300 million individual citizens. If one indivisible country can be made up of over 300 million people then why can't one indivisible God be made up of more than one "person"? The Father and the Son are both God and this God will adopt thousands or millions of adopted children who will all be completely equal to their brother Jesus. God will not be two or three "persons" but millions. This is the amazing future of mankind that is completely overlooked by the idea that God is forever limited to being three.

Bad, bad . . . bad comparison. The one nation indivisible means no state is allowed to leave the union.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

It is still one nation made up of 50 parts so why can't one God be made up of several parts? Answer, it can. Just like one family is made up of several parts.

 

[Faithofchristian]

The trinity and making Jesus God has all kinds of problems. Here are three big ones:

1. God is the father of Israel (Jer 31:19, Is 64:8, et. al.). Jesus is Israel's husband (Rev 21:9). If Jesus is God, he is both Israel's father and husband, i.e. God is incestuous.
   
2. God is our (Christians) father. (Col 1:2). Jesus is our brother (Heb 2:11). If Jesus is God, he is both our father and our brother. That doesn't make any sense.
   
3. Jesus is called the son of God some 48 times. If Jesus was God then he is his own father. Clearly unworkable.

Does God not understand simple family relationships? If Jesus is God that is a distinct possibility. However, if Jesus is not God, if there is not trinity, it all makes sense. The family relationships all fall into place, as does the rest of the redemption story. Making Jesus God, as tradition would say, makes the word of God of non-effect (Mark 7:13).

There's no problems, it's just you that don't have any understanding how Jesus can be the Son of God, But yet be God himself.

The body of flesh and blood is what makes Jesus the Son of God and the Son of man.

But what counts is who's inside of the body of Jesus. God himself is inside of the body of Jesus.

God made himself a body of flesh and blood and then God incase himself inside of the body.

No it doesn't make the word of God of
non-effect, what it does is, it enforce's the word of God.

 

[shunyadragon]

It is still one nation made up of 50 parts so why can't one God be made up of several parts? Answer, it can. Just like one family is made up of several parts.

One family made of several or many parts is in equivalent to the concept of the Trinity. Your trying to equate simple worldly relationships with the concept of the Trinity, and there is no equivalence in this view.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The bible doesn't support and either, or scenario. Why can't some see the trinity and others cannot as fine?

...because neither view depreciates Who christ is and his Relationship with his father. What exact brings out the rudeness in you because someone else doesnt relate to Christ the same as you do?

Do your relation connection need to be the same as your peer to experience christ love?

Is Christ going to punish you for calling him an intermediary to god or god himself?

Is Christ love based on whether you call him god or the son of God?

What exactly is the problem???

 

[2ndpillar]

The bible doesn't support and either, or scenario. Why can't some see the trinity and others cannot as fine?

...because neither view depreciates Who christ is and his Relationship with his father. What exact brings out the rudeness in you because someone else doesnt relate to Christ the same as you do?

Do your relation connection need to be the same as your peer to experience christ love?

Is Christ going to punish you for calling him an intermediary to god or god himself?

Is Christ love based on whether you call him god or the son of God?

What exactly is the problem???

New American Standard Bible Dt 5:6
'You shall have no other gods before Me.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

New American Standard Bible Dt 5:6
'You shall have no other gods before Me.

That tells me nothing.

Add commentary. Isolated verses assumes both parties understand the verse the same way.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I think Jesus probably does NOT want everyone to understand. You do know that when He was asked why He spoke in parables He said it was so people would NOT understand. People do not even understand that because many say the parables were used to make it easier for people to understand. If people can't even get that right it is easy to see how other misunderstandings can occur.

 

[Anna Therese]

The trinity and making Jesus God has all kinds of problems. Here are three big ones:

1. God is the father of Israel (Jer 31:19, Is 64:8, et. al.). Jesus is Israel's husband (Rev 21:9). If Jesus is God, he is both Israel's father and husband, i.e. God is incestuous.
   
2. God is our (Christians) father. (Col 1:2). Jesus is our brother (Heb 2:11). If Jesus is God, he is both our father and our brother. That doesn't make any sense.
   
3. Jesus is called the son of God some 48 times. If Jesus was God then he is his own father. Clearly unworkable.

Does God not understand simple family relationships? If Jesus is God that is a distinct possibility. However, if Jesus is not God, if there is not trinity, it all makes sense. The family relationships all fall into place, as does the rest of the redemption story. Making Jesus God, as tradition would say, makes the word of God of non-effect (Mark 7:13).

The simple fact of the matter is that God has revealed Himself through His Church as the most holy and undivided Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Three Divine Persons in one God. The following is a quote from www.vaticancatholic.com

The Trinity and the Incarnation

There is one God in Three Divine Persons (Father, Son and Holy Ghost). The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; yet they are not three gods, but One God. The Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, the Son of God, assumed a human nature and became man from the flesh of the Virgin Mary. Our Lord Jesus Christ is one Divine Person with two natures: divine and human. He is God and man. The Trinity (One God: Father, Son and Holy Ghost) and the Incarnation are the two most essential mysteries of the Catholic Faith which no one above reason can be ignorant of and be saved.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica: “After grace had been revealed, both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ, chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above.”

Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica: “And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity.”

 

[rrobs]

There's no problems, it's just you that don't have any understanding how Jesus can be the Son of God, But yet be God himself.

The body of flesh and blood is what makes Jesus the Son of God and the Son of man.

But what counts is who's inside of the body of Jesus. God himself is inside of the body of Jesus.

God made himself a body of flesh and blood and then God incase himself inside of the body.

No it doesn't make the word of God of
non-effect, what it does is, it enforce's the word of God.

The second assertion you made (Jesus is the Son of God & the Son of Man) is perfectly aligned with the scriptures. It's relatively easy to find verses that say those two things.

The one about God being inside the body of Jesus? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that, but the scriptures do say that God was in Christ (2 Cor 5:19). Does that actually make Jesus God though? Before answering that, consider what it says in Colossians.

Col 1:27,

To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you (as a born again believer), the hope of glory:
​

If you want to say that God being in Jesus' body makes Jesus God, then wouldn't Jesus in you make you Jesus (and also God)? That sounds way more heretical than saying Jesus is the son of God and therefore not God Himself.

I'm just trying to look at in in a logical way and that's how it comes out.

 

[rrobs]

The simple fact of the matter is that God has revealed Himself through His Church as the most holy and undivided Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Three Divine Persons in one God. The following is a quote from www.vaticancatholic.com

The Trinity and the Incarnation

There is one God in Three Divine Persons (Father, Son and Holy Ghost). The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; yet they are not three gods, but One God. The Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, the Son of God, assumed a human nature and became man from the flesh of the Virgin Mary. Our Lord Jesus Christ is one Divine Person with two natures: divine and human. He is God and man. The Trinity (One God: Father, Son and Holy Ghost) and the Incarnation are the two most essential mysteries of the Catholic Faith which no one above reason can be ignorant of and be saved.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica: “After grace had been revealed, both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ, chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above.”

Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica: “And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity.”

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate your thoughts.

I went to Catholic school (very traditional like yourself, Latin and all) for 12 years and took religion class 1 hour a day/5 days a week. I was really interested in learning about God, so I always studied hard and pretty much got straight "A"s in that class. But at the end of those 12 years I couldn't reconcile why God would want me to believe something that really didn't make any sense. I'm sorry, but the whole idea of three in one, all the old pictures of a three headed creature, confused me to no end. It was never a comforting thought to me. My earthly dad would never have knowingly confused me that much, so I couldn't understand why my heavenly father would do that to me.

Anyway, one day I met someone who introduced me to the simple idea that Jesus was the Son of God and not God the Son. He asked me if I could show him where the scriptures call Jesus God the Son. It dawned on me that in all those religion classes, I didn't remember even one time where we cracked the actual Bible and looked at it. Nonetheless, I figured I could find somewhere where they do call Jesus God the Son. Not knowing my way around the scriptures themselves, it took me some time, but I finally had to admit Jesus is never called God the Son. Not even once. My friend then pointed out that Jesus was called the Son of God almost 50 times. All of a sudden the confusion the trinity caused me vanished. The scriptures opened up to me in a way that the religion classes never did. I came to understand way more about God and His son, Jesus. Everything made sense. It was no longer necessary for my to take everything by faith. I could now understand with my little pea brain how much God loved me. Likewise I understood how much the man Jesus Christ, God's only begotten son, loved me.

That God almighty loved me was not that hard to understand. I figured that God, unlike people, could easily overlook my frailties and shortcomings. But that Jesus, being a man, could love me so much he'd die the worst death imaginable suddenly loomed larger in my mind than I ever though possible. He was a man, but a man like no other.

He was born with innocent blood (the result of the virgin birth). Adam also was born with innocent blood. But whereas Adam wanted to be God (as the devil suggested he could achieve), Jesus was content with being who he was, the son of God and not God Himself. Of course because of Adam's poor choice, we all inherited his sin filled blood. But praise God, Jesus always obeyed his father to the letter, even unto the horrible death I mentioned. Had he sinned, and like the first Adam he had free will and could have sinned at any time in his life, we would still be dead in our trespasses and sins. The devil even offered him all the kingdoms in the world. For God to have refused that is no big deal, but for a man like you or me to refuse such a tempting offer, WOW! And why did he refuse the offer? Because he loved you, me and every other low life sinner that ever lived just that much. To me that is a much grander story than making Jesus God. After many years of Biblical research I've also come to realize that it is exactly what the scriptures themselves really say.

Sorry for the long post, but once I get going on the greatness of God's plan and the love with which Jesus carried out that plan, I find it hard to stop! But that's it. Thanks for listening and God bless.

 

[rrobs]

The bible doesn't support and either, or scenario. Why can't some see the trinity and others cannot as fine?

...because neither view depreciates Who christ is and his Relationship with his father. What exact brings out the rudeness in you because someone else doesnt relate to Christ the same as you do?

Do your relation connection need to be the same as your peer to experience christ love?

Is Christ going to punish you for calling him an intermediary to god or god himself?

Is Christ love based on whether you call him god or the son of God?

What exactly is the problem???

Ps 12:6,

The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.​

God's word, unlike the words of men, are indeed pure words. God had a reason for every word He spoke, where He spoke it, to whom He spoke it, and when He spoke it. It is the height of perfection. As such it has tremendous power. But if even one word had not been that way, the whole book would fall apart and be nothing more than another "War and Peace" great piece of literature. It would not have had the power to make you and I His children and give us eternal life.

Jesus was extremely concerned with each and every word. Had he been lackadaisical and said, "Oh, what difference does it make if I follow every jot and title or not" where would we be today? We'd still be dead in our trespasses and sins.

So that's the problem of bastardizing God's perfect word. It's literally a matter of eternal life or death.

 

[rrobs]

Does not work, because the Trinity defines God as three distinct 'persons;' God the Father. God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.

Judaism, Islam and the Baha'i Faith describe God as One indivisible God without exceptions.

It's ironic that the religions you mentioned are usually thought of as devilish by most Christians, and yet they are more aligned with the scriptures than those who so criticize them.

 

[Faithofchristian]

The second assertion you made (Jesus is the Son of God & the Son of Man) is perfectly aligned with the scriptures. It's relatively easy to find verses that say those two things.

The one about God being inside the body of Jesus? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that, but the scriptures do say that God was in Christ (2 Cor 5:19). Does that actually make Jesus God though? Before answering that, consider what it says in Colossians.

Col 1:27,

To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you (as a born again believer), the hope of glory:
​

If you want to say that God being in Jesus' body makes Jesus God, then wouldn't Jesus in you make you Jesus (and also God)? That sounds way more heretical than saying Jesus is the son of God and therefore not God Himself.

I'm just trying to look at in in a logical way and that's how it comes out.

You probably with out a doubt, wondered where Christians gets the idea of the Trinity, in speaking about Christ Jesus, God the Father and the Holy Spirit. That all 3 are one and the same.

Colossians 2:9--"For in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily"

What this means is, that in the body of Christ Jesus dwells God the Father and the Holy Spirit.
That all 3 are one and the same God, within the body of Christ Jesus.

Matthew 1:23--"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a Son, and they shall call his name Em-man-uel,
Which being interpreted is, God with us"

This also shows that Christ Jesus as being God himself.

As for a Christian, Christ does dwell within me. But that doesn't mean that I am Christ Jesus personally.
As a Christian we are to walk as Christ Jesus walk. In other words, we are to be transparent in the likeness of Christ Jesus.
We can never be Christ Jesus, For there is only one Christ Jesus.

As there is only one God the Father, Which dwells in the body of Christ Jesus.

It's like a mannequin, it's only an image of someone, Thereby God made himself a body, and step inside of the body of Christ Jesus to bring life to it.
Thereby you have the Godhead,
God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
The complete Godhead all in one body.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

The Supreme Court of the Ubited States consists of nine judges. But they are one indivisible court. When they make a ruling that ruling is the law even though some of the judges may disagree. It is one indivisible court as far as the law is concerned but it is made up of nine judges. The one and only God is one as far as His law and rulings are concerned even though there are more than one "person" making up that one God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If you want to understand the trinity, you must go by scripture

Ps 12:6,

The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

God's word, unlike the words of men, are indeed pure words. God had a reason for every word He spoke, where He spoke it, to whom He spoke it, and when He spoke it. It is the height of perfection. As such it has tremendous power. But if even one word had not been that way, the whole book would fall apart and be nothing more than another "War and Peace" great piece of literature. It would not have had the power to make you and I His children and give us

Jesus was extremely concerned with each and every word. Had he been lackadaisical and said, "Oh, what difference does it make if I follow every jot and title or not" where would we be today? We'd still be dead in our trespasses and sins.

So that's the problem of bastardizing God's perfect word. It's literally a matter of eternal life or death.

I read this in full and trying to figure how this relates to what I said.

Why do you think people are bastardizing gods word?

Their relationship with christ is not bastardized?

Are you saying their relationship with christ is depenent on how they interpret his word and not himself?

A matter of life and death: John 5:39

"(Ye) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

So, wait, christ is the bibe?

Your life is dependent on how you interpret the bible and not christ himself????

Thats like when you are judged, christ says: I noticed you interpret my words the wrong way, sorry. Your relationship with me is void.

Your eternal life isnt dependent on how you read my english words. Sorry. Poof.

edit

Rrobs, if thats the case, no one is going to heaven.

 

[rrobs]

The Supreme Court of the Ubited States consists of nine judges. But they are one indivisible court. When they make a ruling that ruling is the law even though some of the judges may disagree. It is one indivisible court as far as the law is concerned but it is made up of nine judges. The one and only God is one as far as His law and rulings are concerned even though there are more than one "person" making up that one God.

A court and a person are two entirely different animals.

I can see a court made up of 9 people with no problem, but a person made up of three people creates a whole boatload of problems.

I appreciate your views, though. Thanks for the discussion!

 

[rrobs]

If you want to understand the trinity, you must go by scripture

I read this in full and trying to figure how this relates to what I said.

Why do you think people are bastardizing gods word?

Their relationship with christ is not bastardized?

Are you saying their relationship with christ is depenent on how they interpret his word and not himself?

A matter of life and death: John 5:39

"(Ye) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

So, wait, christ is the bibe?

Your life is dependent on how you interpret the bible and not christ himself????

Thats like when you are judged, christ says: I noticed you interpret my words the wrong way, sorry. Your relationship with me is void.

Your eternal life isnt dependent on how you read my english words. Sorry. Poof.

Here's what you said,

"Why can't some see the trinity and others cannot as fine?"​

I thought you implied that it wasn't really that important how we interpret the scriptures regarding who Jesus is. That it's OK to say there is a trinity or there isn't a trinity. Either way is fine. Am I wrong in that?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Here's what you said,

"Why can't some see the trinity and others cannot as fine?"​

I thought you implied that it wasn't really that important how we interpret the scriptures regarding who Jesus is. That it's OK to say there is a trinity or there isn't a trinity. Either way is fine. Am I wrong in that?

I said that; and, yes, it highly depends on whether you reading the trinity from the bible or man (if you like)?

You can argue the trinity all day, but none of you will go to heaven (going by you guys posts) if you are dependent on your interpretation of english scripture (as quoted in the other post) and not christ himself.