Procreation is immoral

[columbus]

I never reproduced. There are no little tom or tomettes.

So I feel entitled to consume as much of the resources my progeny would have used if I want.

I saved the human situation from thousands of g g g grandkids. Why should I deprive myself jet travel or sharkfin soup?

Tom

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't think procreation itself is immoral but I really think that people seriously need to take it a lot more seriously than they do. It's the biggest responsibility you've ever have in your entire life - the care of another human. Most people don't seem to get that. So many people are just irresponsible. Men are out throwing sperm around like it doesn't matter. People don't use condoms or any birth control. It's bewildering to me how people just don't care at all. Then they get pregnant, and they can't really take care of the child(ren) because they're too immature, they're scum, abusive, too broke, etc. Or they just abort the child as if it's the kid's fault they're too stupid and irresponsible in the first place. It completely disgusts and angers me.

It really does make reproductive licensing seem like a great idea. I'm tired of children being devalued, treated like commodities and abused. Humans created the sorry state of the world and we can fix it if we want to.

 

[columbus]

Humans created the sorry state of the world and we can fix it if we want to.

Convince religious people that this is true and we'll be halfway there. They keep talking about The Almighty, then explaining why God is so limited.

Tom

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Convince religious people that this is true and we'll be halfway there. They keep talking about The Almighty, then explaining why God is so limited.

Tom

Yes, that it is a problem. It's defeatism. We need serious and realistic education for all human beings.

 

[Parsimony]

This is sort of one of the reasons why I have chosen to not have children. I have no idea what kind of problems they might face in the future or even what problems they might be born with. Besides, we've got enough humans on the planet as it is. I don't need to contribute to that. If someone else wants to have children, and is responsible about doing it, then I have no problem with that. It's just not for me.

 

[Astravalon]

It's immoral to cause and perpetuate unconsented suffering. Procreation causes and perpetuates suffering. Nobody had a choice on whether they were born in a world of suffering. Procreation is a violation of consent, and therefore it's immoral.

All this, of course, assumes that it's absolutely true we didn't choose to be
here. Not all worldviews assume we were forced to be here—it's just the
most commonly-accepted view, for whatever reason.

Just putting that out there for your consideration, in case you're still following
this thread.

-

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

All this, of course, assumes that it's absolutely true we didn't choose to be
here. Not all worldviews assume we were forced to be here—it's just the
most commonly-accepted view, for whatever reason.

Just putting that out there for your consideration, in case you're still following
this thread.

-

So true. In my spiritual beliefs, I think we choose to incarnate. We make the choice to come into this world, while still in another realm.

 

[Nymphs]

Eh, it isn't immoral. Just not for me.

 

[Brickjectivity]

We cannot choose to be born, but through maturing, we become more responsible for our existence. We can then choose to kill ourselves in order to escape the struggle of life or we can choose to constantly overcome ourselves and imbue life with value in the process, hence becoming moral.

Mostly I agree. Every moment you are choosing to be alive counters any argument that you were forced to live, unless you have no choice but to live. What if, somehow, you are living strictly out of compassion for the suffering of the living? Its a pie-in-the-sky question however, because I don't know of anyone who does that.

Choosing reproduction is more complicated than choosing to be alive, and I think that reproduction is a different question with different implications. What a complex subject.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It's immoral to cause and perpetuate unconsented suffering. Procreation causes and perpetuates suffering. Nobody had a choice on whether they were born in a world of suffering. Procreation is a violation of consent, and therefore it's immoral.

Indeed. I'd suggest that you immediately go out and get yourself fixed so we don't need to worry about you reproducing.

 

[Penumbra]

It's immoral to cause and perpetuate unconsented suffering. Procreation causes and perpetuates suffering. Nobody had a choice on whether they were born in a world of suffering. Procreation is a violation of consent, and therefore it's immoral.

Defining this world as a "world of suffering" adds a subjective weight on that argument. It's a world of suffering and also a world of joy. Both of those things exist. In many countries, the average self-reported happiness and satisfaction with life out of a scale of 0-10, is in the 8-10 range. Very happy, in other words. So in those countries, it would be much more probable to have a child that is rather happy throughout life, than a child that is rather sad throughout life. In many troubled areas, it's a different matter, about 50/50 or somewhat less.

One could also argue that depriving other people of choice, is immoral. Taken to absurdity, for each potential child that we don't create, we take away their choice to live in this world that has a greater than average chance of being happy. Therefore it would be immoral not to have as many children as possible. And that's obviously a terrible argument.

One could also argue, along with that idea of choice, that someone can commit suicide if they truly hate their life in this world. For the vast majority of people I certainly wouldn't recommend it. But technically, that's an option available to them. So by having kids (particularly in developed countries where the people having this discussion are), one brings a person into this world that offers a rather high probability of being fairly happy. And in the low chance that the child ends up being terribly sad throughout life for one reason or another, they have a choice whether to stay in this world or not. The vast majority of people choose to stay here, about 99% or so. The other 1% or so choose not to.

I note that people who argue against increasing the number of humans very rarely begin with themselves.

I don't plan to have any kids.

A more relaxed version is to just follow basic Kantian ethics of not doing something unless you think it's a good idea if everyone acted that way, within reason.

So one could say, for example, having 3+ kids, if everyone did that, leads to exponential growth on a finite planet, which is probably a bad idea.

But, having 2 kids or less, if everyone did that, leads to a roughly static population or a mild ongoing reduction in population.

 

[LuisDantas]

Procreation isn't immoral, not by itself.

It just carries a huge moral duty with it.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I like that answer.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Let me ask you - if you were somehow given the option of being born or not being born, which would you choose?

It's not really forcing anyone to do anything against their will, it's giving them a chance, and if they don't like it they can leave life, and people have chose the latter option, it's a shame in my eyes, but to their own quite the opposite. You can't say they didn't have a choice.

 

[roger1440]

It's immoral to cause and perpetuate unconsented suffering. Procreation causes and perpetuates suffering. Nobody had a choice on whether they were born in a world of suffering. Procreation is a violation of consent, and therefore it's immoral.

If you honestly believe that, why don't you turn in your membership card to life in?

 

[kashmir]

In some ways it is immoral.
People in 3rd world countries that are so poor they cant even eat, yet continue to bring kids into their world.
Insane when you think about it.

 

[Sunstone]

Fact: Everyone who is procreated eventually dies.

Moral: Procreation kills.

 

[Valjean]

Fact: Everyone who is procreated eventually dies.

Moral: Procreation kills.

This post is totally hoc'd

 

[columbus]

In some ways it is immoral.
People in 3rd world countries that are so poor they cant even eat, yet continue to bring kids into their world.
Insane when you think about it.

Not really, from their perspective. If you are poor in a place with little security and social safety net adult male children are your best bet in old age. If half the kids die and half are girls, you need eight babies to get even odds of two surviving sons. Just the cold equations.

So the social norms continue to encourage procreation. What we relatively privileged folks might do to help change that situation goes way beyond condom distribution.

Tom

 

[ZooGirl02]

I disagree that procreation is immoral. I believe that procreation is moral, virtuous, and an obligation.

I can understand that if the population of the world becomes too high then it could cause a lot of suffering. Even so, suffering is a part of our life on earth even when the earth is not overpopulated. I believe that God allows us to suffer in order to bring about a greater good. This is the doctrine of Redemptive Suffering. Therefore, I do not believe that suffering is a just reason to refuse to procreate. In fact, I believe that refusing to remain open to procreation is a very serious sin.