Progress in sadhana

[Aupmanyav]

Rama was my friend. I gave my problems to him. And I have mentioned earlier, kept all the fun to myself. That is how we decided the distribution. That has worked very well. I do not need to pray. You are welcome to pray if you feel that way.

 

[Vinayaka]

Rama was my friend. I gave my problems to him. And I have mentioned earlier, kept all the fun to myself. That is how we decided the distribution. That has worked very well. I do not need to pray. You are welcome to pray if you feel that way.

You don't need to pray because the rest of us are all praying for you.

 

[Jainarayan]

You don't need to pray because the rest of us are all praying for you.

That's not far off the mark... I've come to not feel so anxious and obsessive about praying to every god/dess, because someone else is praying to them.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Take a deep breath, prioritize, do the important/practical/worldly things first. Enlightenment can wait.

You don't need to pray because the rest of us are all praying for you.

Thanks friends. That does it. I am relieved. I can busy myself in replying to your posts (and generally making a nuisance of myself).

 

[StarryNightshade]

Take a deep breath, prioritize, do the important/practical/worldly things first. Enlightenment can wait.

I often wonder if this is one of my spiritual flaws? That I try, in vain, to focus on the things that would (potentially) bring moksha, when I should probably focus a bit more on worldly life?

I mean, I should do my sadhana and what not, but is there really a need for me at this point in my life to, as @Vinayaka pointed out, blend the householder and sannyasin paths together? God will always be there and when I'm finally able to, I can focus primarily on the spiritual. But at this point in my life, that's increasingly difficult.

It reminds me of an uncle at my home temple. He's a Telugu Brahmin, but it wasn't until 15 years ago when he began to consistently do his duties. Before then he was focused on his education and family life.

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

I often wonder if this is one of my spiritual flaws? That I try, in vain, to focus on the things that would (potentially) bring moksha, when I should probably focus a bit more on worldly life?

I mean, I should do my sadhana and what not, but is there really a need for me at this point in my life to, as @Vinayaka pointed out, blend the householder and sannyasin paths together? God will always be there and when I'm finally able to, I can focus primarily on the spiritual. But at this point in my life, that's increasingly difficult.

It reminds me of an uncle at my home temple. He's a Telugu Brahmin, but it wasn't until 15 years ago when he began to consistently do his duties. Before then he was focused on his education and family life.

My husband sometimes teases me, asking me if I plan on leaving him to go to India and be a wandering sannyasi. I told him that even if I wanted to (which I don't) I made a commitment and a promise as his partner and keeping that promise is a part of my Dharma/Duty, therefore to pursue "higher" goals is actually detrimental to the process because I am doing it for selfish reasons. When we have responsibilities, we should follow through. Once every loose end is taken care of, we can go live in the woods. I personally plan to retire near a clootie tree in Ireland

)

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

So I guess more to you point, @StarryNightshade , you could ask yourself - what promises have you made either to yourself and others? What do you have to do that's still left undone if you leave behind the householder role or try to meld the housholder with the sannyasin? Any of those duties can easily be done with a mind toward Dharma. Everything you do can be seva for Bhagwan ji . You just need to have the right state of mind.

 

[Vinayaka]

The sannyasi stage of life is sometimes mistaken for true sannyasi. True sannyasi is young, happens early in life well before any attachments or householder commitments are made, even the taking care of one's parents in their old age. Often other siblings will volunteer for that, knowing its their dharma to support the sannyasin. He can't have lingering attachment, and needs the blessings of parents. The robes, the teacher, and what they signify are the new parents.

Sannyasin stage of life is just hte natural withdrawal of forces into oneself, less instinct, loss of drives, making for more time to be reflective.

I know there are some orders and people who would view this differently than me, and would fully support the idea of retiring to the forest. But I cringe at the thought ... Mommy, where did Grandpa go?' Why not just wait for a new body and do it right?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Starry, remember Krishna's words:

"Sannyāsaḥ karma-yogaś ca, niḥśreyasa-karāv ubhau;
tayos tu karma-sannyāsāt, karma-yogo viśiṣyate." BG 5.2

The renunciation of work and work in devotion are both good for liberation. But, of the two, karma-yoga is better than renunciation of work.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

Namaskaram,
What in the world are you elders teaching/preaching here!? I'm astonished that such a shallow view of sannyas has gone unchallenged so far. True sannyas (not the ashrama) is a state of mind to be practiced, a surrendering and offering of desires and their fruits into the fire of the one great desire burning in the soul (for moksha--which likewise also must be surrendered). The practice results in a state of consciousness attained; it is not a stage nor station in life, not a costuming of one's body in an ochre garb nor a doing or refraining from doing certain rituals or behaviors, neither a flight from the world nor from works. It's not even a renunciation of enjoyment; the truth is it's a tried and true method for getting in touch with, in tune with the Great Indwelling Enjoyer Him/Herself--and an opportunity to enjoy as Ishwara does, i.e., the ananda of Satchidananda. And it has absolutely NOTHING to do with one's age.

To encourage and add to the confusion of young seekers by advocating willy nilly going out to "enjoy" a worldly, attachment-generating life until some future date or late in life or "not even in this life, wait until the next one or another" (OMG, people!!) without uttering a caution or thought of the consequences of such a choice is downright misleading and in no way rises to the level of wisdom which has also been shared by some of you self-same elders. A life of enjoyments lived without discriminating the effects of same--all the enjoyments in the world of senses--having the nature of ephemerality, of duality because of their very nature, invariably entangle the soul... and the one who is counseled to "enjoy" must be/should be counseled to be prepared to "enjoy" the flip side of these enjoyments too, that is, the "discontent" which comes when the enjoyments and/or the ability to enjoy wanes or vanishes altogether! All quotes used quite deliberately.

Sannyas is renunciation. Renunciation of the fruits of one's karmas, the works, the duties, not the karmas, the works and the duties themselves--wherever and whatever they may be. Our shruti is replete with stories of householders who were true sannyasins, of students who likewise understood this concept. Why aren't you speaking of these? Ram, Ram, Ram.

 

[shivsomashekhar]

True sannyas (not the ashrama) is a state of mind to be practiced, a surrendering and offering of desires and their fruits into the fire of the one great desire burning in the soul (for moksha--which likewise also must be surrendered).

If that is so, why do we even have a formal Sanyasashrama? Your argument makes the ashrama redundant. Why did Shankara state (Upadesha Sahasri) that his teaching was for Mumukshus who were also Sanyasins? More below.

Sannyas is renunciation. Renunciation of the fruits of one's karmas, the works, the duties, not the karmas, the works and the duties themselves--wherever and whatever they may be.

What does that mean - to renounce fruits? Without the result in mind, one cannot even begin to act. And the one who is most passionate about the result is the one will perform the best. So, to act without interest in the result or with indifference will result in a sloppy job and why would anyone want that? Instead of Shruti examples, it would be far more relevant to look for real life examples - if we can actually find any.

What about family attachments? Can one still live a worldly life, while being totally detached/indifferent to one's children - claiming to follow true Sanyasa? Is it your opinion that Siddartha should not have left his wife and son; should have continued on as a loving husband and father and would have still found the same Nirvana?

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

If that is so, why do we even have a formal Sanyasashrama? Your argument makes the ashrama redundant. Why did Shankara state (Upadesha Sahasri) that his teaching was for Mumukshus who were also Sanyasins? More below.

Not redundant at all. It's all about context. The 4 ashramas (for those unfamiliar with this: celibate student [brahmacharya], householder [grihastha], forest dweller [vanaprastha] i.e., the householder who has turned his/her attention away from worldly and familial concerns to double down on his spiritual endeavors/sadhana), and renunciate [sannyasa], divvied up into 25 years or so each of the so-called 100-year allotted lifespan are guides for the embodied souls who are not experiencing mumukshutva (the ache for, the burning desire for soul's liberation from the thralldom of mundane existence; it is considered a "higher" state of consciousness). There are some younger posters/older souls in this forum--two of whom are specifically posting in this thread--who are experiencing the birth of these pangs but who are in angst and some doubt about these "feelings" because they do not recognize the gift for what it is. And they're being encouraged by others (who have not experienced this at all), IMO erroneously, to choose to "fall back into maya" rather than continuing their "leap in towards realization." Ever thus, the siren song!! Saldan!! Beware!!

What does that mean - to renounce fruits? Without the result in mind, one cannot even begin to act. And the one who is most passionate about the result is the one will perform the best. So, to act without interest in the result or with indifference will result in a sloppy job and why would anyone want that? Instead of Shruti examples, it would be far more relevant to look for real life examples - if we can actually find any.... What about family attachments? Can one still live a worldly life, while being totally detached/indifferent to one's children - claiming to follow true Sanyasa?

"Renouncing fruits" doesn't mean not having a result in mind. That would be folly, of course, nearly impossible except for the acts of a baby or young toddler. It means not having a personal desire, a stake if you will, in the outcome, that is whether it succeeds or fails or by how much, etc. Like that. It's determining how, when, where, what and if to act (in other words, what is dharma now, right this moment), then acting, and then witnessing the result of the act rather than pushing or manipulating the act to have this or that result. And baloney about being passionate for a result to have the best outcome. Passion for a particular result often just screws or skews the result.

Neither is renouncing fruits the same as acting with indifference. It's to act with dispassion, often translated as disinterest--but that disinterest is not the same as uninterested. Not sure that's clear, but I'm trying to define an attitude, the way a mind/heart holds the thought or feeling of something without, as "they" say, going off center, without losing one's equanimity. But all this is said with an assumption that staying "centered" or "in equanimity" has value. For some people, it simply doesn't. They sincerely enjoy the ups and downs, the ins and outs, the dizzying sway between intense activity and lethargic stupor. To each his own, but not me. Been there, done that. I can design the T-shirt for the miseries of that so-called life. No thanks. For certain, one can live in the world, doing one's duty to family and community without attachment. King Janaka is a good example of this. Lord Rama, as well, and this is what I mean by shruti, these are real world examples. The results of acting without regard for the fruits in every case will be better than those done with attachment. Again, to be attached to the fruits of an act means having a personal (read selfish!) desire for a particular result. And what we want may not be what God wants nor what is in the best interest of the person or situation. Hope this helps clarify my statements, Shiv'. Lord Krishna, of course, in the BGita does a much better job at it.

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram Shivsomashekhar Ji

If that is so, why do we even have a formal Sanyasashrama? Your argument makes the ashrama redundant. Why did Shankara state (Upadesha Sahasri) that his teaching was for Mumukshus who were also Sanyasins? More below.

in this kaliyuga there is a great differnce between Sanyasashrama , ....and fully renounced Sanyasa a truely renounced Sanyasin serves his spiritual master without question and without deviation , ....without sence of self or any element of self serving .

What does that mean - to renounce fruits? Without the result in mind, one cannot even begin to act. And the one who is most passionate about the result is the one will perform the best. So, to act without interest in the result or with indifference will result in a sloppy job and why would anyone want that? Instead of Shruti examples, it would be far more relevant to look for real life examples - if we can actually find any.

a Sanyasin can and does act with great passion , but that passion is to serve , thus action for the benifit of others and action in the service of ones Guru is persuance of ones Dharma as a Sanyasin , ...at no time is the true Sanyasin's thought upon the fruits of his actions nor does he think to reap even the benifit of Moksha , but he acts because it is his Dharma to do so .

What about family attachments? Can one still live a worldly life, while being totally detached/indifferent to one's children - claiming to follow true Sanyasa? Is it your opinion that Siddartha should not have left his wife and son; should have continued on as a loving husband and father and would have still found the same Nirvana?

a true Sanyasin sees all equaly be they family members or not , ...he has a duty to be completly detatched , he renounces everything and relise on the goodness of others , ....in the instance of Siddatha Gautama He is a prefect example he renounced worldly life leaving behind his wife and child , this he could do even at a young age because he knew that they would be looked after and that they would not suffer , ...but Siddatha's motivation to renounce worldly life was to Gain liberation for the sake of others , his vow was to find an answer which would end the affliction of birth , old age , sickness and death , he did not go in search of Nnrivana for the sake of his own Liberation nor to end his own suffering , ......had he done so that would have been attatchment to the fruits , .....

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

...a Sanyasin can and does act with great passion , but that passion is to serve , thus action for the benifit of others and action in the service of ones Guru is persuance of ones Dharma as a Sanyasin , ...at no time is the true Sanyasin's thought upon the fruits of his actions nor does he think to reap even the benifit of Moksha , but he acts because it is his Dharma to do so.

Namaste, Ratikalammaji
By your use of the word "passion" here, do you mean "with great energy" or that passion we are usually advised to shun, that is unbridled rajo guna (usually in the pursuit of selfish gain which you are correctly saying is NOT an accurate characterization of a true sannyasin)?

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram Swami Ji , ....

I'm astonished that such a shallow view of sannyas has gone unchallenged

Jai Jai , ....I am astonished also , astonished and saddened , ....

To encourage and add to the confusion of young seekers by advocating willy nilly going out to "enjoy" a worldly, attachment-generating life until some future date or late in life or "not even in this life, wait until the next one or another" (OMG, people!!) without uttering a caution or thought of the consequences of such a choice is downright misleading

in this Kaliyuga we have become complacent we think we can have feet in two boats , ....we can be spiritual but still worldly'ly attatched , ....be renounced but still the enjoyer ???
this is why people are not understanding what ''renunciation of fruits'' is meaning

(OMG, people!!) without uttering a caution or thought of the consequences of such a choice is downright misleading

it seems that the understanding of Dharma (as in the duty of a senior to warn a youth of its sweet impetiousity) has become allmost lost , ....I have recently realised the futility of offering words of caution here as such words are frequently met with hostility , ......

and to finnish with a further word of warning be it welcome or not , ...we should all be mindfull that the effects of Kaliyuga will cause steady degenertion in principles and in abbility to practice Dharma , if we wait to be reborn thinking that the fruits of our punya in this lifetime will be sufficient to grant us a birth in which we may further our quest for Moksha after having taken a gap year in this life time , ...we may be sorely dissapointed , ...but we will not have the wisdom to even know it , ....if we in this lifetime realise that we should seek Moksha (as in liberation from Ignorance) then we shold do it now , ....we dont have to become a Sanyasin and renounce worldly life and all its accoutrements we need only to be humble and sincere about performing our own Dharma , ......we simply have to renounce the fruits which ever situation or station of life we find ourselves in , .....

It is indeed impossible for an embodied being to give up all activities. Therefore it is said that he who renounces the fruits of action is one who has truly renounced. Bhagavad Gita , ....Ch ..18 V, ..11​

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram Swami Ji , ....

Namaste, Ratikalammaji
By your use of the word "passion" here, do you mean "with great energy" or that passion we are usually advised to shun, that is unbridled rajo guna (usually in the pursuit of selfish gain which you are correctly saying is NOT an accurate characterization of a true sannyasin)?

with energy yes yes , ............with great depth of love and motivation , .....this is not the passion of the would be enjoyer but the pasion of one who derived pleasure from seeing others advance in their Sadhana , and of course from pleasing his own Guru ji , , ...whos Guru ji in turn thinks only to serve Krsna , ......thus in humility such a great soul becomes the servant of the servants servant and is overjoyed by doing so , .....

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

Namaskaram Swami Ji , ....



Jai Jai , ....I am astonished also , astonished and saddened , ....



in this Kaliyuga we have become complacent we think we can have feet in two boats , ....we can be spiritual but still worldly'ly attatched , ....be renounced but still the enjoyer ???
this is why people are not understanding what ''renunciation of fruits'' is meaning



it seems that the understanding of Dharma (as in the duty of a senior to warn a youth of its sweet impetiousity) has become allmost lost , ....I have recently realised the futility of offering words of caution here as such words are frequently met with hostility , ......

and to finnish with a further word of warning be it welcome or not , ...we should all be mindfull that the effects of Kaliyuga will cause steady degenertion in principles and in abbility to practice Dharma , if we wait to be reborn thinking that the fruits of our punya in this lifetime will be sufficient to grant us a birth in which we may further our quest for Moksha after having taken a gap year in this life time , ...we may be sorely dissapointed , ...but we will not have the wisdom to even know it , ....if we in this lifetime realise that we should seek Moksha (as in liberation from Ignorance) then we shold do it now , ....we dont have to become a Sanyasin and renounce worldly life and all its accoutrements we need only to be humble and sincere about performing our own Dharma , ......we simply have to renounce the fruits which ever situation or station of life we find ourselves in , .....

It is indeed impossible for an embodied being to give up all activities. Therefore it is said that he who renounces the fruits of action is one who has truly renounced. Bhagavad Gita , ....Ch ..18 V, ..11​

JAI JAI MA!! Bingo! You have hit the nail on the head. I believe some of this error is happening because although the teachings themselves (and erudite commentary) are now readily available (via internet and books, etc.) a true guru who can actually illumine the teachings is not. And so, ever since joining this forum, I have been beseeching my Lord to grant that most precious boon to all who sincerely seek to really know the Truth of themSelves.

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram Jainarayan ji

That's not far off the mark... I've come to not feel so anxious and obsessive about praying to every god/dess, because someone else is praying to them.

can I be so bold as to call you so adorably sweet as Hanuman ji when he coverd himself in sindor to please lord Rama , ...when asked why he had covered himself from head to toe in sindor , he sweetly replied that if Sita Devi wears the sindor as a sign of devorion to Lord Rama then he too wanted to show his love and devotion , ....

you must follow your own heart and worship the one lord which your heart feels most drawn to , but even better than prayer is surrender , ....just place yourself at the lotus feet of your supreme , be that Narayana , Krsna or Devi which ever form is most comfortable and attractive to you , ..and as confirmed by Krsna in the Gita , .....what so ever you have will be preserved and what you lack will be strengthened , ....

may Shradha be yours , ....

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram Ji

JAI JAI MA!! Bingo! You have hit the nail on the head. I believe some of this error is happening because although the teachings themselves (and erudite commentary) are now readily available (via internet and books, etc.) a true guru who can actually illumine the teachings is not. And so, ever since joining this forum, I have been beseeching my Lord to grant that most precious boon to all who sincerely seek to really know the Truth of themSelves.

Jai Jai , ....some error is also happening because this age conditions its children to be independant and head strong , to submit or to admit ignorance is shamefull , thus we are conditioned to deceive ourselves , for this reason we canot be told , ...truth canot reveal it self because we do not beg for it , ...the greatest boon is humility , ....

 

[Aupmanyav]

Post deleted after reading full post by Sassymaa. Disregard.

What in the world are you elders teaching/preaching here!?

XXXX Sassymaa, preaching is based on the age and situation of the person who is being preached. Humbly, one size does not fit all. XXXX

* 'Savadhan, Sassymaa, not Saldan.

'What does that mean - to renounce fruits? Without the result in mind, one cannot even begin to act.'

'What about family attachments? Can one still live a worldly life, while being totally detached/indifferent to one's children - '

One can. Detached and indifferent have different meaning. I think you have done exactly what I had done in the previous post. Acted without thoughtfully considering. We need to understand BhagawadGita's message.