Pronunciation of the word "Celt"/"Celtic"

[EyeofOdin]

There was a girl in Highschool who was very proud of her Irish heritage, and she insisted that the word "Celtic" is pronounced "Seltic". I asked her why, and she say that was how it was originally pronounced. Interesting... but to satisfy this reason it's wrong. Not to be arrogant, but it is.

Caesar writes "tertia qui ipsorum lingua celtae, nostra galli appelantur" which means "the third [part of Gaul] by the language of themselves the celts, by ours they are called the gauls"

The letter C in Latin is pronounced as a hard C, as in cat, and not soft as in acid. We know this because we know that words in Latin like Caesar or Celtae translated into Greek were written as Kaisar or Keltoi.

The reason we pronounce it this way, and it is the first pronunciation IN ENGLISH, is because we derive that particular word from the French word "Celtique" pronounced "Seltic", but if you're trying to pronounce it as ancient Celts would, use a hard C.

 

[Poeticus]

There was a girl in Highschool who was very proud of her Irish heritage, and she insisted that the word "Celtic" is pronounced "Seltic". I asked her why, and she say that was how it was originally pronounced. Interesting... but to satisfy this reason it's wrong. Not to be arrogant, but it is.

Caesar writes "tertia qui ipsorum lingua celtae, nostra galli appelantur" which means "the third [part of Gaul] by the language of themselves the celts, by ours they are called the gauls"

The letter C in Latin is pronounced as a hard C, as in cat, and not soft as in acid. We know this because we know that words in Latin like Caesar or Celtae translated into Greek were written as Kaisar or Keltoi.

The reason we pronounce it this way, and it is the first pronunciation IN ENGLISH, is because we derive that particular word from the French word "Celtique" pronounced "Seltic", but if you're trying to pronounce it as ancient Celts would, use a hard C.

I took Classical Latin for three years in high school*. Each student
had a Latin/Roman name. Mine was Celer**.​

At University, I cringe inside when basketball fans pronounce
the Celtics as Seltics. Perhaps it's a little too picky, but I truly don't
believe it is that much to ask.

What's more interesting, or I should say ironic, is when an ethnic
Irish gentleman argued with me for almost an hour on how the
correct pronunciation was with an "s" sound, rather than a "k", or
as you said, a hard "c" sound. However, it was an intriguing
digression from the mind-boggling, difficult, Econ lecture we were
sitting through. ​

_______________
* Don't really remember that much, sadly. :sad:

** speedy; hasty; quick​

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Both you (EyeofOdin and Poeticus) and the Irish people correcting you are wrong to an extent. In Gaeilge, the word would be spelled as Ceilteach (pronounced kind of like "Celt-ukh") in which the "C" isn't a hard sound nor an "s" sound, although I agree that it's closer overall to the hard sound. When followed by an "e" the consonant becomes a slender rather than broad consonant. Hence, it's not as hard; it would sound more like the "c" in cap than the "c" in corn or cold; in Gàidhlig (not Gaeilge), it changes even more and would be pronounced as a slender "ky" and not as a slender "k."

 

[EyeofOdin]

Both you (EyeofOdin and Poeticus) and the Irish people correcting you are wrong to an extent. In Gaeilge, the word would be spelled as Ceilteach (pronounced kind of like "Celt-ukh") in which the "C" isn't a hard sound nor an "s" sound, although I agree that it's closer overall to the hard sound. When followed by an "e" the consonant becomes a slender rather than broad consonant. Hence, it's not as hard; it would sound more like the "c" in cap than the "c" in corn or cold; in Gàidhlig (not Gaeilge), it changes even more and would be pronounced as a slender "ky" and not as a slender "k."

I'm not familiar with irish pronunciation, but I'm pretty sure that in the word you've given, it makes a K sound.


It's really difficult to tell how to pronounce modern celtic languages like Irish or Scottish Gaelic because the English oppressed and essentially killed the language down to a handful of native speakers. Now in some regions it thrives as a form of cultural identity.

However it's pronounced in contemporary Irish or Scottish, I'm talking about classical Celtic. The same Celtic language that Roman Traders and Soldiers, Germanic Tribes and the Gauls had come and saw, learned and interacted with. And in this Celtic, it's very unlikely that it was pronounced with a soft C, considering that the Soft C pronunciation mostly originated in medieval Romantic languages, and the majority of soft C words in other languages are actually just lone words from languages like French or Spanish. So it's a very new thing and something that Ancient Romans, Greeks or Celts wouldn't have been familiar with.

 

[Poeticus]

The letter C in Latin is pronounced as a hard C, as in cat, and not soft as in acid.

...it makes a K sound.

Between you and me, you are correct. Trust me, I almost
got detention in high school when I wouldn't pronounce
"Celer" as "Keler", the "k" sound that is found in Hellen
Keller's name, for example. The "c" consonant before
"e" is pronounced like "k" in Reconstructed Ancient
Roman (as well as in Classical). Don't worry, University
of Georgia is with us on this, . Click Me Please

If one needs the ultimate RF confirmation, one can be
willing, if he/she is, to send a PM to RF's Legion; he's
pretty much fluent in Classical Latin, having written many
papers in this wondrous and noble tongue. ​

 

[Skwim]

Pronunciation of "Celtic" (Type in the word)

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Pronunciation of "Celtic" (Type in the word)

Yeah, and that sounds like a slender consonant and not a broad (hard) consonant, or like I said, "more like the "c" in cap than the "c" in corn or cold."

However it's pronounced in contemporary Irish or Scottish, I'm talking about classical Celtic. The same Celtic language that Roman Traders and Soldiers, Germanic Tribes and the Gauls had come and saw, learned and interacted with. And in this Celtic, it's very unlikely that it was pronounced with a soft C, considering that the Soft C pronunciation mostly originated in medieval Romantic languages, and the majority of soft C words in other languages are actually just lone words from languages like French or Spanish. So it's a very new thing and something that Ancient Romans, Greeks or Celts wouldn't have been familiar with.

What exactly are you talking about again? The slender-broad distinction is also present in Welsh, Breton, Noric (probably), etc. (i.e. other Celtic languages) and not in English, so I don't see how the slender sound could be adopted FROM English, when we don't have even that distinction between "c" sounds (the cap, corn example is the closest approximation I can think of). In order to adopt a particular sound-distinction from another language, the other language must have that distinction already; that's pretty much common sense. That is not the case, no Germanic or Romanic language has a slender-broad distinction, that is unique to Celtic languages (so it likely originated in proto-Celtic). Also, a slender "c" is not the same as a soft "c," from a palatal perspective, just as much as the word cap (the thing you put on your head) is different from the word sap. Is there something you're not understand here?

 

[Poeticus]

Yeah, and that sounds like a slender consonant and not a broad (hard) consonant, or like I said, "more like the "c" in cap than the "c" in corn or cold."

Check your ears, mate.​

Is there something you're not understand here?

He's talking about Latin! I wouldn't have joined this
convo if EyeofOdin was talking about a pronunciation
that is of non-Latin usage, since I have never even
heard of "Gaeligh"-sldkfjkskkljsdfs*.
_______________
* In other words, uber difficult to
pronounce it in "native", "Celtic" way. ​

 

[Poeticus]

Yeah, and that sounds like a slender consonant and not a broad (hard) consonant, or like I said, "more like the "c" in cap than the "c" in corn or cold."

Here's your "cap", bro:​

Spoiler: truth

"Basically, Classical Latin is pronounced the way it is written, with a few exceptions -- to our ears: consonantal v is pronounced as a w, i is sometimes pronounced as a y. As distinct from Church Latin (or modern Italian), g is always pronounced like the g in gap; and, like g, c is also hard and always sounds like the c in cap."

source​

Have you been pronouncing "cap" with an Indian accent this whole
time -- with a Sanskritic, "k-like" sound rather than that of a "kh-like"
sound? Too funny, Jas. Plus, there is really no "slender" sound for the
consonant "c" in Archaic or Classical Latin. Or, have you been saying
it like the "ch" in chap stick?

The only "slender"-like pronouncing of a Latin letter for both Archaic
and Classical is for the letter, "Q", for instances wherein the vowel
following it, is not stressed. How do I know this? Simply because my
Latin teacher drilled it into my head that the "e" after the "c" in Celer
was accented with a stress. In other words: hard "k".
​

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

"Basically, Classical Latin is pronounced the way it is written, with a few exceptions -- to our ears: consonantal v is pronounced as a w, i is sometimes pronounced as a y. As distinHave you been pronouncing "cap" with an Indian accent this whole
time -- with a Sanskritic, "k-like" sound rather than that of a "kh-like"
sound? Too funny, Jas. Plus, there is really no "slender" sound for the
consonant "c" in Archaic or Classical Latin. Or, have you been saying
it like the "ch" in chap stick?

The only "slender"-like pronouncing of a Latin letter for both Archaic
and Classical is for the letter, "Q", for instances wherein the vowel
following it, is not stressed. How do I know this? Simply because my
Latin teacher drilled it into my head that the "e" after the "c" in Celer
was accented with a stress. In other words: hard "k".
[/INDENT][/INDENT]

You're also not understanding that slender-broad difference has to do with how long each consonant is, just like between the Mid-atlantic pronunciation of the English words "cap" and "corn," hence it was the best example I could use; watch the following, and see the difference between the "c" in A ceathair déag and A cúig déag
[youtube]BT_oieNX3_8[/youtube]

 

[Poeticus]

Reading Comprehension failure: "If you're trying to pronounce it as ancient Celts would, use a hard C."

No way Jose, bro. I only
went after this part of
the post, because it is
what I am familiar with:​

"The letter C in Latin is pronounced as a hard C..."​

Since, I stayed on the word, "Celtic", which
is from the Latin, celticus. So, that's
why all the stuff about Recon & Clas. Latin. ​

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

No way Jose, bro. I only
went after this part of
the post, because it is
what I am familiar with:​

"The letter C in Latin is pronounced as a hard C..."​

Since, I stayed on the word, "Celtic", which
is from the Latin, celticus. So, that's
why all the stuff about Recon & Clas. Latin. ​

Still a comprehension failure, since he did also talk about the "pronunciation that is of non-Latin usage" and even mentioned that in his reply to my initial post.
Also, Gaeilge is Irish Gaelic, jsyk.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

See, e.g., Celtic Studies Resources.

 

[Poeticus]

Still a comprehension failure, since he did also talk about the "pronunciation that is of non-Latin usage" and even mentioned that in his reply to my initial post.

I guess I can concede that I
didn't initially comprehend that
you were talking about it in
the native, "Celtic" usage only.​

 

[EyeofOdin]

Yeah, and that sounds like a slender consonant and not a broad (hard) consonant, or like I said, "more like the "c" in cap than the "c" in corn or cold."

What exactly are you talking about again? The slender-broad distinction is also present in Welsh, Breton, Noric (probably), etc. (i.e. other Celtic languages) and not in English, so I don't see how the slender sound could be adopted FROM English, when we don't have even that distinction between "c" sounds (the cap, corn example is the closest approximation I can think of). In order to adopt a particular sound-distinction from another language, the other language must have that distinction already; that's pretty much common sense. That is not the case, no Germanic or Romanic language has a slender-broad distinction, that is unique to Celtic languages (so it likely originated in proto-Celtic). Also, a slender "c" is not the same as a soft "c," from a palatal perspective, just as much as the word cap (the thing you put on your head) is different from the word sap. Is there something you're not understand here?

I never said that any words or pronunciation rules in modern Gaelic languages are adopted from English (although we do share a few words).

Exactly what I said, and I'll rephrase to make it a bit clearer, what I'm saying is that the 'soft' C pronunciation originated with Romantic languages transitioning from Latin. The only words, with probably only a few exceptions, with a soft c pronunciation in European Languages are either Romantic ones or languages which adopted words from those Romantic languages.

Going back to the original point, to the Gaulish and Celtic people during the time of Caesar, soft 'c' pronunciation what probably very foreign to them. Quite frankly I have yet found a Classical European word with a soft 'c' (or equivalent letter in a different script) pronunciation.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I've heard multiple people pronounce it as (kelt-ic), but to me neither pronunciation bothered me.

 

[McBell]

I pronounce it with the 's', seltic.

The reason being that all of my family from Scotland pronounce it that way.

 

[Riverwolf]

I use "keltic". "Seltic" just sounds weird to me.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

"Seltic" is a football team. Anything else is "keltic" — like me.

 

[Phil25]

There was a girl in Highschool who was very proud of her Irish heritage, and she insisted that the word "Celtic" is pronounced "Seltic". I asked her why, and she say that was how it was originally pronounced. Interesting... but to satisfy this reason it's wrong. Not to be arrogant, but it is.

Caesar writes "tertia qui ipsorum lingua celtae, nostra galli appelantur" which means "the third [part of Gaul] by the language of themselves the celts, by ours they are called the gauls"

The letter C in Latin is pronounced as a hard C, as in cat, and not soft as in acid. We know this because we know that words in Latin like Caesar or Celtae translated into Greek were written as Kaisar or Keltoi.

The reason we pronounce it this way, and it is the first pronunciation IN ENGLISH, is because we derive that particular word from the French word "Celtique" pronounced "Seltic", but if you're trying to pronounce it as ancient Celts would, use a hard C.

I used to say "Seltic". Reason-I dont know why