Proof for the existence of the Abrahamic god?

[`mud]

What's the OP ????
~
'mud

 

[allfoak]

What's the OP ????
~
'mud

I know it has nothing to do with gravity.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Can't we use the word gravity as a descriptive term for our observation that things fall?

Great point! And indeed that was more or less what gravity was. The problem is that at the micro and macro scale this simply doesn't happen. Things don't fall

 

[allfoak]

Great point! And indeed that was more or less what gravity was. The problem is that at the micro and macro scale this simply doesn't happen. Things don't fall

Perhaps it is an observer problem.
It seems we get in our own way.

I should be able to put my hand through my coffee table since there is more space than matter, but thankfully i cannot or life as we know it would not exist.
Time seems to be only linear, yet the laws of physics do not prevent it from being experienced in the other direction.
It seems the problems associated with time, space and gravity are not problems that science can solve on it's own.

And I prove the existence of God to myself through the use of my logic and intuition among other faculties we humans have but either misuse or don't use at all.

 

[morphesium]

Of course not, otherwise I wouldn't have written this. The Vedas were revealed to sadhus through intense meditation, which they in turn, divinely inspired, created the Upanishads.The Bhagavad Gita was being recited to Dhritarashtra by Sanjaya, who heard it from Sri Krishna as he was giving the discourse to Arjuna, and the Srimad Bhagavatam and the Puranas were written by Veda Vyasa, an incarnation of Narayana.

These are all stories.

Have you ever thought that like the believers of Abrahamic religions, you too are wearing a hat (but one with a different color).

The Vedas were revealed to sadhus through intense meditation,

Who are these sadhus? I guess they are region dependent (not occuring in all part of the world). Why?. Do such people exists now - so that they can create more Upanishads or fill the gap in these Upanishads. Did they prove mathematically any fundamental laws of science or predict future laws of science that mankind will conquer one day?

 

[Terese]

These are all stories.

Have you ever thought that like the believers of Abrahamic religions, you too are wearing a hat (but one with a different color).



Who are these sadhus? I guess they are region dependent (not occuring in all part of the world). Why?. Do such people exists now - so that they can create more Upanishads or fill the gap in these Upanishads. Did they prove mathematically any fundamental laws of science or predict future laws of science that mankind will conquer one day?

No, they are most certainly not stories. They are very real.

Hard to tell. Many sadhus have experienced the Vedas, whether here, or else where. There is no need to create any more Upanishads for the Vedas. And yes, many scientific discoveries were expound by the Vedas. Read up yourself

 

[Britedream]

I found this video to be interesting for God existence indication, if it is proven to be true

 

[Robert Landbeck]

1. No anecdotes (personal events)
2. No long commentaries.
3. Use scientific evidence.
4. Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.
5. No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

TEST it for yourself!

The first wholly new interpretation for two thousand years of the moral teachings of Christ has been published. Radically different from anything else we know of from theology or history, this new teaching is predicated upon the 'promise' of a precise, predefined, predictable and repeatable experience of transcendent omnipotence and called 'the first Resurrection' in the sense that the Resurrection of Jesus was intended to demonstrate Gods' willingness to reveal Himself and intervene directly into the natural world for those obedient to His Command, paving the way for access to the power of divine Will and ultimate proof as the justification of faith.

Thus 'faith' becomes an act of trust in action, the search along a defined path of strict self discipline, [a test of the human heart] to discover His 'Word' of a direct individual intervention into the natural world by omnipotent power that confirms divine will, law, command and covenant, which at the same time, realigns our mortal moral compass with the Divine, "correcting human nature by a change in natural law, altering biology, consciousness and human ethical perception beyond all natural evolutionary boundaries." Thus is a man 'created' in the image and likeness of his Creator.

So like it or no, and many won't, a new religious teaching, a wisdom not of human intellectual origin, empirical, transcendent, testable by faith, meeting all Enlightenment criteria of evidence based causation and definitive proof now exists. Nothing short of an intellectual, moral and religious/spiritual revolution is getting under way. To test or not to test, that is the question? More info at http://www.energon.org.uk

 

[Kartari]

Hi wizanda,

The prophets add up over a few thousand years, to show what will occur...

Now you could understand someone fabricating fulfillment of prophecies; yet not to detrimentally cut off, and destroy themselves in the process on purpose.

So based on that data you could perceive there was something outside of time, informing them of this information.

Can you cite at least one prophecy that we know was not: (a) vague enough to fit a plethora of possible interpretations, (b) obvious enough to be considered simply an informed prediction rather than a prophecy, or (c) actually written down after an event took place?

Further, when interpreting a prophecy, how do we rule out the human tendency towards confirmation bias?

 

[Kartari]

Hi DawudTalut,

Peace be on you.
Intelligent and guided evolution shows there should be Maker.
Revelation, purity and blessings tells God exists - the God of all humanity and universes.

Can you present any evidence that an intelligent "maker" is necessarily guiding evolution?

Also, how do "revelation, purity, and blessings" inform us that your idea of God exists? Regarding revelation, please refer to my previous post to wizanda. Regarding purity, in Buddhism it is claimed that only you can purify yourself (Dhp 165). If you can self-purify, then a deity is not necessary... indeed, how can one being even purify another in the first place? And regarding blessings, what do you mean, and how would such blessings make evident your concept of God?

 

[Kartari]

Hi Quintessence,

Let me get this straight. Your thread title indicates that you want proof for the existence of the one-god in the Bible, but then you make a list of demands that renders this impossible.

Apologies, but why did you create this thread?

In fact, at least three of the rules the OP states are not valid methods of proving anything. One is a logical fallacy (circular reasoning), another might be convincing to the self but cannot count as evidence for others (personal experiences), and a third can be mere chatter without any necessity to subscribe to either logical or empirical standards of validity (preaching). As for "long commentaries," I suppose that depends on the substance of those commentaries... I guess the OP is looking for brevity as well as proof.

 

[anotherglenda]

1. No anecdotes (personal events)
2. No long commentaries.
3. Use scientific evidence.
4. Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.
5. No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

I don't know what scientific evidence or mathematical formula can be used to prove that love, truth and justice exist, yet they do exist. When you can disprove them scientifically, you can disprove the Abrahamic God, since He is love, truth and justice.
BTW, what scientific proof is there of artistic talent or high ideals etc???? If science can't prove them don't they exist? Is science all-encompassing or does it have limitations regarding abstract realities?

 

[wizanda]

Can you cite at least one prophecy

Isa 5:13 Therefore my people go into captivity (to denude) for lack of knowledge. Their honorable men are famished, and their multitudes are parched with thirst.

There are two times after this is said to be written, where the children of Israel were exiled...

The rest of the chapter identifies it as the parable of the wicked husbandmen Yeshua told, where he said they shall lose the nation after it.

Further, when interpreting a prophecy, how do we rule out the human tendency towards confirmation bias?

That question is something we struggle with, when speaking to a Jew, Christian, Muslim, they've all been told how to interpret the text a certain way; thus even if we were to use the specific definitions within the text to assess it, and prove a case, many of them wouldn't agree, as it doesn't fit their presupposition.

The case that I've found within the Biblical text horrifies me; yet can clearly show where it adds up, based on what is within it, and open to questioning it.

 

[viole]

Personal experiences are our greatest proof of anything, everything else is taking somebody's word for it,

Don't personal experiences require we take the experiencer's word for them ?

Having said that, there are other forms of evidence we can all consider for God, but not proof, that has to be discovered personally- how else could it ever work?

Well, it does not work

Ciao

- viole

 

[Kartari]

Hi wizanda,

Isa 5:13 Therefore my people go into captivity (to denude) for lack of knowledge. Their honorable men are famished, and their multitudes are parched with thirst.

There are two times after this is said to be written, where the children of Israel were exiled...

The rest of the chapter identifies it as the parable of the wicked husbandmen Yeshua told, where he said they shall lose the nation after it.

Jewish history is not my forte, but I recall that the Kingdom of Israel was first conquered in the 8th century BCE. My understanding is that we have no clear evidence of the exile from Egypt under Moses, that this is, to our knowledge, a legend rather than a historical account. I am not sure offhand what other exiles you might be referring to, but in any case... was this passage really written before, and not after, said exiles took place? The earliest closure date I recall for the Tanakh being finalized was in the 6th century BCE (two centuries after Israel was conquered).

Even if we put that aside and assume for the sake of discussion that two exiles followed this passage's writing, is it really that unusual to find smaller nations get displaced by larger nations throughout history? Especially given the great plethora of wars and conquests that humanity has unfolded? Ancient writings predicting bad times ahead are not impressive to me, even if they predict exile in particular. Such predictions state what any well-informed and thinking person could probably reasonably guess at perhaps even centuries in advance. The odds of conquest for a small nation like ancient Israel, sooner or later, I'd say was very high, in other words. Like living in, say, the early 1700's and predicting the demise of American Indians in North America, a sad but rather apparent outcome given the continuation of the colonies' and later states' trend to take more and more land and expand westward without regard to who was there first.

That question is something we struggle with, when speaking to a Jew, Christian, Muslim, they've all been told how to interpret the text a certain way; thus even if we were to use the specific definitions within the text to assess it, and prove a case, many of them wouldn't agree, as it doesn't fit their presupposition.

The case that I've found within the Biblical text horrifies me; yet can clearly show where it adds up, based on what is within it, and open to questioning it.

And besides how we interpret texts, there is the problem of paying attention to when a prediction appears to come true yet forgetting all the times they don't come to pass. How much in the Bible has been wrong? I have not studied prophecies a lot, but there are many errors and contradictions in the Bible more generally. We still have people to this day who believe the Sun revolves around the Earth, that the Earth is flat with a domed sky held up by pillars, and that God created the world 6,000 years ago.

 

[wizanda]

My understanding is that we have no clear evidence of the exile from Egypt under Moses

That's called the Exodus.

I am not sure offhand what other exiles you might be referring to, but in any case... was this passage really written before, and not after, said exiles took place?

It was written before, here is the prophets timeline, as you can see on there, Isaiah was written over 100 years before the Babylonian Exile, and 700 years before Yeshua came along, and the 2nd temple was destroyed.

Such predictions state what any well-informed and thinking person could probably reasonably guess at perhaps even centuries in advance.

True; yet when this prophecy is taken in context of all the rest of the chapter, and interlinking passages, like with Yeshua's statements, it can clearly be seen to fit many criteria.

Depends what you're looking for tho, if you looking to debunk something, you'll find ways to ignore evidence; personally can show how a whole array of information adds up across time.

 

[allfoak]

Don't personal experiences require we take the experiencer's word for them ?

Yes and No.
It requires us to trust that the person who has had the experience is telling us the truth when they say, "if you do what i did you will experience what i experienced".
Of course if we are not interested in having the same experience, then there is nothing left to be said.
We can't judge another person's experience without first experiencing it.

 

[Kartari]

Hi wizanda,

That's called the Exodus.

It was written before, here is the prophets timeline, as you can see on there, Isaiah was written over 100 years before the Babylonian Exile, and 700 years before Yeshua came along, and the 2nd temple was destroyed.

True; yet when this prophecy is taken in context of all the rest of the chapter, and interlinking passages, like with Yeshua's statements, it can clearly be seen to fit many criteria.

Depends what you're looking for tho, if you looking to debunk something, you'll find ways to ignore evidence; personally can show how a whole array of information adds up across time.

I appreciate the response. I am truly interested in the facts, no matter where they lead. And when I debate, I do so out of the desire to both learn and teach, rather than push a one-sided view I like.

But to be honest, I don't have the time to invest in doing more thorough research on the matter atm, so I won't waste your time. I foresee this will be a back and forth that requires a bit of reading up on my part to give this discussion due justice.

Not to get too picayune about it, but for your information, the most striking issue I spot with the timeline on Wikipedia is that it's devoid of citations. As a PhD student in history, I tend to be far more trusting of scholarly sources (i.e. peer-reviewed journals, books, and articles written by experts in the field). Wikipedia is a great project in theory. But it's prone to inaccuracies since, quite literally, anybody can come along and edit and write articles on there. About.com is a more reliable online encyclopedia written by experts. Wikipedia does make an excellent starting point for research, though, since quite often Wikipedia articles will contain bibliographies at the end to follow up with.

 

[Augustus]

There is no evidence for or against the Easter Bunny, do we rationally conclude that it may exist?

There is plenty of evidence against an oversized, clothes wearing, basket carrying, egg delivering, space-time bending rabbit.

Certainly a lot more than there is for an apophatic monotheist God about whom nothing can be said except that He is beyond comprehension. "We do not know what God is. God Himself does not know what He is because He is not anything. Literally God is not, because He transcends being"

 

[Walter Russell]

1. No anecdotes (personal events)
2. No long commentaries.
3. Use scientific evidence.
4. Preaching is not evidence, but simply restating your claim.
5. No circular logic. (Bible is true because it says so.)

The Torah, "Moses=Aries" brought the Jews out of the age of Taurus and into the age of Aries. Jesus brought the ppl out of the age of Aries and into the age of Pisces.
The Torah is also in the Quran. The literal versions of Islam,Judaism and Christianity are nothing more than allegories of the movements of the heavenly bodies.