Proof of Islam?

[Duncan]

- Allah is NOT at all merciful. In fact he's a horrible character; petty, insecure, vindictive, and cruel.

I don`t know what you have been reading, But one thing is sure was not the Quran. Unless you pick up what you don`t want to hear and you leave the rest.

You see in Islam, God (called (Allah) in Arabic) is described as “Al-Rahman Al-Rahim” “the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful” in reference to God’s infinite mercy towards His creatures.
If you have read the Quran as you said, you would notice in the opening chapter of the Quran, Surat Al-Fatihah, we read the following verses:

[All] praise is [due] to Allah, Lord of the worlds – The Most Gracious, the Most Merciful (1:2-3)

The descriptions of “the Most Gracious” and “the Most Merciful” are often repeated in the Quan. For example, we read:

And your god is one God. There is no deity [worthy of worship] except Him, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. (2:163)

We also read:

And to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. He forgives whom He wills and punishes whom He wills. And Allah is Forgiving and Most Merciful. (3:129)

In Islam, God’s infinite mercy is mostly reflected in the so-called “original sin” and the story of Adam and Eve and their eating from the forbidden tree. We observe that Adam did not need anything after disobedience to God except for sincere repentance. When he turned to God in sincere repentance, God accepted his repentance and showed him infinite mercy. In the Quran, we read:

Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Most Merciful. (2:37)

In Islam, we do not notice any consequences of the sin of Adam and Eve after their repentance. If a Muslim disobeys his Lord, he needs only to hasten to turn to God in sincere repentance and earnestly seek His forgiveness. God promised to forgive all sins and misdeeds and accept sincere repentance. In the Quran, we read:

And ask forgiveness of Allah. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Most Merciful. (2:199)

We also read:

And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Most Merciful. (4:64)

We further read:

And whoever does a wrong or wrongs himself but then seeks forgiveness of Allah will find Allah Forgiving and Most Merciful. (4:110)

About the acceptance of repentance, we read:

Except for those who return [repenting] before you apprehend them. And know that Allah is Forgiving and Most Merciful. ( 5:34)

We also read:

But whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms, indeed, Allah will turn to him in forgiveness. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Most Merciful. (5:39)

Though polytheism is the deadliest sin to be committed against God, God forgives this cardinal sin and shows mercy to its committer if the latter turns to God in repentance. We read:

They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Most Merciful. (5:73-74)

Another cardinal sin is the concealment of God’s revelations to mankind. This used to be done by the Jewish rabbis and the Christian priests. They used to distort, corrupt, alter, reveal parts and conceal other parts of their scriptures. In spite of the graveness of their offence and the seriousness of their sin, God promises to forgive and show mercy to them in case they turn to Him in repentance and reveal the words of God they concealed. We read:

Indeed, those who conceal what We sent down of clear proofs and guidance after We made it clear for the people in the Scripture - those are cursed by Allah and cursed by those who curse, Except for those who repent and correct themselves and make evident [what they concealed]. Those - I will accept their repentance, and I am the Accepting of repentance, the Most Merciful. ( 2:159-160)

You even notice that if a Muslim has to commit a certain sin unintentionally, God shows him mercy, forgives him and accepts his repentance. In the Quran, God says:

But whoever is forced [by necessity], neither desiring [it] nor transgressing [its limit], there is no sin upon him. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Most Merciful. (2:173)

We also read:

But whoever is forced by severe hunger with no inclination to sin - then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Most Merciful. (5:3)

Before accusing your creator of something he is not read the Quran properly.

In the Bible, especially the New Testament, God is described as “Merciful”. We read: “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant. For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name. And his mercy is for those who fear him from generation to generation.” (Luke 1:46-50)

The New Testament often urges mercy. We read: “Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.” (Matthew 5:7) We also read: "Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.” (Luke 6:36)

Though the Bible urges mercy, we observe that the biblical conception of God is quite far away from any sort of mercy. We notice that, in the Bible, especially the Old Testament, when Adam disobeyed his Lord, God did not forgive him, rather He threatened him and cursed the earth because of him.

In the Bible, we read: “To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ “Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:17-19)

Also, in the New Testament, we observe that the Bible based on Adam’s obedience an unforgivable sin. The Bible made salvation from such a sin through a demigod given the impossibility of the forgiveness of such a sin. Thus, this being had to be killed so that he would redeem mankind from this sin. Then, God could accept the repentance of His sinful creation.

In the New Testament, we read the following verses:

“Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict” (John 3:14-19)

It is quite evident that the Islamic conception of God is more acceptable and palatable for it takes into account the fallible nature of humankind. Since man is naturally disposed to committing sins, God facilitates for him a way out of this sin through repentance and penitence.

In Islam, God did not base on the sin of Adam and Eve a burden to be inherited by their offspring generation after generation. Rather, He showed mercy to them, accepted their repentance and promised to forgive the sins of their offspring and accept their repentance if they turn to Him in sincere repentance. Thus, God showed mercy to Adam and Eve as well as their offspring and urged them to show mercy to one another. Consequently, Adam and Eve as well as their progeny got the better of this world and the one to come: with reciprocal mercy in this world and forgiveness and bliss in the Hereafter.

As for the Christian conception of God, it is an unacceptable one, for God, according to the Bible, did not take into consideration the fallible nature of mankind. How come God is not Merciful towards and does not forgive the sins of Adam and Eve as well as their offspring though He created them as sinful beings? What can be expected from a sinful self except for sin? Is it fair to refuse to show mercy to them when committing a sin they are naturally disposed to? If God cannot show mercy to His servants and could only incite grudge among them, how can God expect them to do good deeds and show mercy if He Himself cannot show it?

 

[Trailblazer]

So Muslims make it hard on themselves because of the claims that they CHOOSE to make about their own scripture.

Muslims say that the Quran is the timeless, perfect, unalterable word of god. When I read the Quran, I read it from that context.

If, OTOH, Muslims said that the Quran was written for the culture of the day and that we need to keep that in mind when we read it today, that would make their claims easier to defend. But no, we're told it's timeless.

Interesting that you say this, because Muslims are doing exactly the same thing as Jews and Christians. They all "believe" that their scriptures are the best and the last -- as you said "the timeless, perfect, unalterable word of god."

As a Baha'i, I believe that that the Torah, the New Testament and Quran was written for the culture of the day and that we need to keep that in mind and with that in mind any imperfections in those scriptures can be understood and accommodated.

I just wrote up a new thread related to this subject I plan to post it tomorrow. It will be entitled:
The tremendous power beliefs hold over peoples’ minds

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

But there are some beautiful Ahadith too.
I'm sorry you feel that way.

The following is me "exposing myself" in order that Wolf and others can view the potential consequences and results of at least one "Islamified" mindset, though I don't represent all of Muslims, these tendencies may occur in some in one way or another:

PART 1
Me too! I don't like feeling that way, but I can't help it really, its God's curse on me that when I hear someone telling a story where God is being spoken back to and corrected by an impertinent human being, I wish death upon them, I literally want them to drop dead and might be close to really brutalizing them for what they say, like saying "Moses said No, go back and tell Allah to change the number" I'd like to take a blade and behead the person, so I'm actually a fanatic. I control the impulse but its actually there, that level of intolerance, or when they say "Allah's hands are tied" I might want to throw them in a flame and watch them burn in agony and their bones blacken and pop, and no amount of destruction is satisfying enough, thats how much venom and malice is in my heart for those who describe God in such a manner and especially if they call themselves Muslim, I wish their heart would stop beating that instant or that the air would escape them and they would drop dead. Its worse malice than any witch or sorceror what I feel inside for people who in their stories try to make Allah a fool and one to be replied to boldly and not feared. I'd much rather not care, I'd much rather be pleased with even obnoxious things so that I don't have to restrain my hand from slapping or punishing people or earnestly wishing their demise, because it feels bad to hate.

I feel similarly about people who torture animals for fun. Like if someone is torturing or hurting a dog, I want to murder them on the spot, and may not be able to control the impulse if its a matter of saving a dog or a child, but otherwise if its just someone talking about how they love torturing animals or hurting babies or children I'd feel similar visceral rage and feel it is within my right to murder them but would not due to laws and all that, but I would curse them and pray for their deaths.

Allah is not in need of defense though, but I was just realizing that I feel a very similar complete malice towards animal and child torturers as I do for people who simply say "They told Allah that is too much, go back and tell Allah to change it", makes me want to leap like a tiger and bite out their jugular vein and end their lives, which is pretty funny, because to the minds of most animal abuse does not even compare to some dumb lie about God and Moses or people accepting such and spreading it around, but I wish equal execution upon both. Sort of weird how that came about, and I find it to be supernatural in its origin, but otherwise undeniably psychological but difficult to pinpoint why exactly they would share the murderous fanatical impulse response. Anyway though, I'm a not violent person, I don't even hurt insects or kill them, but I do constantly monitor my inner feelings and reactions and have noticed this deep desire for the destruction of certain people based on what they say, do, promote, support, spread, justify, etc.

I also feel similarly about criminals and oppressors. I don't feel such a fiery and immediate impulse to harm druggies, but I don't mind when they drop dead also, because I find them to be quite often irritating nuisances and polluting the world and society. God proves to be merciful by giving them air every day and food and other things when I'd rather, due to their interference in my experience, want them to overdose as soon as possible and be dead and gone instead of wrecking stuff, yelling, doing crazy and unstable stuff, whatever.

Like someone in here observed, religiousity may sometimes come hand in hand with these sort of vicious feelings towards people considered to be causing trouble or pain, though I think its not really religion but a natural human impulse to hate threats and pollutants, and that religion just adds a bit of a spice and magic to it all, an extra consideration, and also can, like the law, help restrain people or withhold violence for fear of retribution, even supernatural or superstitious retribution or any kind of difficulties or loss.

Though, I'd honestly be thrilled or greatly pleased and celebratory if some natural disaster occurred and the ceiling collapsed upon a convention of people saying fondly how Moses told God what is right or best. If they all died in the midst of doing that I'd be like "Thank you Master, Kill them, All of them!". I'm like the Westboro Baptist lunatics inside I guess, yeah, its no way to be, but I don't think any amount of therapy could make me think hurting a dog for fun is ok and has no consequences for example, so the hatred remains.

That is also written here by me for Wolf to consider, because currently they are probably feeling really nice, forgiving, turning the other cheek, thinking evil should flourish by turning the other cheek and other cheek and two more cheeks.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

PART 2
Islam, when it really penetrates someone, may in soms cases (and this was the concern of many) somewhat radicalize people's thinking. I don't think terrorists are anything but worldly and deluded people and generally non-religious and not really God-fearing, but the radicalization I'm talking about is a new-found spirit of Hatred, the hatred of the "other" as was pointed out earlier.

Just like they seem to hate us, I'll be the first not to lie and admit wholly that I hate "them" back, though to a far lesser degree than I despise Muslims who might spread stories fervently about God being corrected by man. This "hatred in degrees" has its origin or place in the Qur'an as well, which views certain ignorant kaffirs less deserving of immediate execution than the Muslims spreading lies and wrong thoughts and messages who are considered the most immediate threat.

Likewise, I'd be at severe risk of meeting another fanatic and their intending harm for me, which is why I don't generally claim to be a Muslim to scary type Muslims so that I receive the leniency of being just a mad kaffir or jahil mystic type.

I think that if these people had a choice though, had knowledge of how it felt inside to be a true Muslim, they would choose it, just for the feeling even, because nothing beats it really, to be so without big doubts and big openings and have a God that isn't hard to believe in and a silly weird story attached to it. Its a lot of great feelings, especially to perceive the miraculous and have it seemingly affirmed regularly, and the feeling of having worship practices, since in our view the Christians for example pretty much "do nothing much", their religion seems very lacking and emptied out, and difficult to think about or swallow, and their worship is no worship.

The bad parts of the Islamic mind-virus is the alienation, disdain, and undeniable haughtiness it can induce, even though we consider ourselves humble before God, I won't lie and claim I think Christians are superior to me, because I don't, otherwise I'd be a Christian. I look down upon them and kaffirs, and I am admitting this boldly so that Wolf and others can see or get an honest picture from a true and honest person who doesn't lie and cover up the truth and reality, so that all things considered it can be said to them "We showed you" everything, nothing was hidden, so what did you do about it?

Christians are viewed as vastly inferior because of their lifestyle, mindset, cleansing habits, books, concept of God, basically everything. I don't "pity" them, I don't "hate" them, but I think of them as examples of a cursed and lost people, even just for having filthy bums and genitals and not being very clean, for not having worship and often for their beliefs in a remote and distant God at times, for their guilt and demented thoughts and thoughts regarding sex, and for having nothing but a book I consider sick and depraved to fall back upon for guidance.

I do not feel I can ever be "friends" let alone "intimates" with someone who doesn't almost totally agree with me and my views and habits, and who isn't clean. So there is actually no possibility for me to consider a Christian for example a "true friend" if they say things I think are despicable and believe things I think are hateful, and especially not if they do things I find disturbing and wrong.

Furthermore, if they think I am a fool for what I believe and do, then how are we friends? Just because of the back-rubs?

Living among entire vast populations of people who don't believe anything even close to what I believe in has left me alienated, and repeatedly perceiving people "as not really friends" and having to hide my thoughts and beliefs, has led to the blabbermouth you see before you today.

I can quote the Qur'an expressing these ideas too, the righteous hatred which it claims or implies is God-given like all things, the inability to truly be friendsl even if we really want to, all of what I have expressed here.

That being said, the Qur'an is a much more "psychologically personal" book than the Bible which is far more detached, aloof, distant in its style, it doesn't address "you" as much or as closely or as deeply, it doesn't plumb the depths of your experiences and emotions, just those acts of others much more and in a general and often unbelievable fashion. The Qur'an is a very un-shy book for humans, and passing it over is simply the loss of a pretty unique experience in religious literature or reading in general.

Will you find yourself reflected in it by the stories of believers or disbelievers? I find myself to be totally and exactly described by what it claims are the believers and nothing like the kaffirs who I find accurately described and very much matching the people of today who are not believers.

I think that the Qur'an motivates people to become enhanced and heightened in every way, but that it may use rhetoric and hubris in some ways or lead to such, as it is very difficult not to feel "better" and more "blessed" by people whose examples are given and used as reasons why not to be like them. Like, can anyone honestly say "I want to be a person who is very sad, miserable, dirty, stinky, in pain, with no hope, depressed, empty inside in a bad way, deprived, addicted to drugs and sex but not getting any either, mean to people, cruel to animals" and that we look up to and admire such filth? No way, that makes no sense, so its obvious and natural that a natural looking down on those who do things we consider stupid or bad occurs, and I feel people who deny this are simply lying because they want to not sound bad or admit what monsters each of us humans really are if we take a good look at the reality and how it is forcing these things too.

Liars and flowery words are not always as refreshing as the brutal truth.

People have roughly 60 to 80 years of life to figure out and "live their truth" and some maybe never dom in a way which is satisfying, then they die and their score is totalled.

A Muslim is someone who believes that God can bring them back, that the end of the game has a results screen and Easter Egg (Easter is the celebration of Ressurection) end sequence level reward where you get to enjoy all you struggled for. The Muslim tries to win the game and do well in life and open up the end level reward by having enough points and even having enjoyable replay of our deeds and small and big triumphs through the trials and levels and bosses and battles of life.

The Muslim does not say "I couldn't understand" and so "I didn't even try". They are the ones who really, really, do try with sincerity. They don't wait for Jesus and they don't trust that they have the power to ascend and overcome and sit on top of life through meditations, they spend their lives in Jihad, the struggle to make religion pure for themselves and to do good for themselves and others, to fight the good fight and reason the truth and discover the best with God's guidance and assistance and total help, and worshipping God, eating, thanking, being respectful, clean, dignified, having no cause to be blamed or doing anything shameful or wicked.

The Noblest is the one who Fears God. Who said Islam isn't a religion of Terror? If one is appropriately terrified of God and God's total freedom, total control, total influence, total power, they will find it easy to always try their best to do what is right.

(Add an h as necessary to the front of this link when in the address bar to interpret this song spiritually if possible!):

ttps://youtu.be/RmPfYnzA1r0

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Fair enough brother, regarding my previous post about the existence of God, Allah wants his creatures to contemplate upon his verses, I selected few that I find amazing; especially if read in Arabic; If you have a chance, and time, try and look for it`s recitation in Arabic

" Behold! In the creation of the Heavens and the Earth; In the alternation of the night and day; In the sailing of the ships through the Oceans for the profit of mankind; In the rain which God sends down from the skies, and the life that He therewith to an earth that is dead; In the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the Earth; In the change of the winds, and the clouds which they trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth -Indeed these are signs for a people that are wise." [The Quran 2:164]

"It is He who has made the sun a shining glory and the moon a light of beauty and has measured out their stages, that you might know the number of years and their reckoning. Allah did not create this but in Truth. He explains His signs in detail for people who understand. [The Quran 10:5]

"He has created the heavens and the earth with Truth. Far is He above having the partners that they ascribe to him. He has created mankind from a sperm drop; and behold this (same) man becomes anopen disputer! And the cattle, He has created them for you; in them is warmth (warm clothing) and numerous benefits, and of them you eat." [The Qur'aan 16:3-5]

"Blessed be He who sent down the Criterion to His servant that it may be an admonition to all creatures. To Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth; no son has he begotten, nor has He any partner in His dominion; It is He who created all things and gave them their due proportions. Yet they have taken besides Him gods that can create nothing but are themselves created; that have no control of hurt or good to themselves; nor do they control life nor death nor Resurrection." [The Quran 25:1-3]

"Were they created by nothing or did they create themselves? Or did they create the heavens and the earth ? No, they have no firm belief." [The Quran 52:36]

"He it is who enables you to travel through land and sea, until, when you are in the ships and they sail with a favourable wind and you are glad about that. Then comes a stormy wind and the waves come to you from all sides and when you think that you are encircled by them, you call upon God making your faith pure for Him alone saying :'If You deliver us from this we shall truly be grateful.' But when He delivers you, behold! you rebel in the earth wrongfully. O mankind, your rebellion against God is only against your own selves - a brief enjoyment of this worldly life, then in the end unto Us is your return We shall inform you of that which you used to do." [The Quran 10:22-23]

Very beautiful and tear-jerking verses that God has deprived icehorse of being capable of enjoying. To my senses this is a miraculous thing right before our eyes!

I think icehorse's assessment of the Qur'an wasn't really even inaccurate, I do find it to be "nothing new, rehashed" which it admits to being itself. It also admits to everything else they said, as it strongly promotes awe and fear of God, indoctrinates and certainly has brainwashed me as an ooga-booga-ist for the Qur'an and Allah and the Islamic "death cult" of being absolutely terrified of death and judgment day and scrambling to do good in preparation for that, and that God is not "omnibenevolent" as is clear to see by life itself and the suffering upon all the innocents and hardships, duh, but that God is All Powerful, the Source and Cause of Everything whatsoever, good and evil, just like the Bible very occasionally may say or imply, and so is to be feared, because God is not their cuddly wuddly daddy, but the God who strikes them with diseases and is the only one who can also save them from such. Duh again.

So nothing in their assessment seemed really wrong to me, it just comes down to the button not being pushed, the switch not being flicked, that the Qur'an suggests "God doesn't want icehorse, so icehorse doesn't care for the Qur'an", as for me, Odin has flicked the switch, b-b-b-washed my brain!

Now I'm hypnotized, and it only happens to some people. We can no longer see except with Islamified vision, where turning to the East or the West or the Left or the Right "There is the Countenance of Allah".

ttps://youtu.be/5Bx-TgFiNpU

 

[Trailblazer]

Anyone before the Qur'an came along or without knowledge of it who ends up behaving in this fashion and believing such things is supposedly saved and their good deeds count towards their reward they receive, just like people who do evil are said to be repaid for all of it as well after the Judgment where the evidence is shown and they are questioned, accused, proven guilty in various ways made immensely clear to them, and condemned.

There is basically no room generally for wiggling out now that the Qur'an is widely and freely and easily accessible and many have even read it. www.islamawakened.com/quran . Being exposed to such and thereafter rejecting it ir rejecting even giving it a chance means that one is placed in the category of the "other".

So you, just like the Jews and the Christians believe that your scriptures (the Qur'an) is the final Word of God....
The difference between you and them is they Muslims accept the Torah and the New Testament as legitimate scriptures, but what you have in common with them is that you believe your scriptures are the final say.

I am a Baha'i, and I also believe that the Torah the New Testament and the Qur'an are the Word of God, but I believe that the Writings of Baha'u'llah are the final say (until another Messenger comes in the future), and I believe that the way we get to paradise is by following Baha'u'llah.

“Thou hast gained admittance into the Paradise of God’s Remembrance, through thy recognition of Him Who is the Embodiment of that Remembrance amongst men.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 303

There is basically no room generally for wiggling out now that the Writings of Baha'u'llah are widely and freely and easily accessible:
The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Now as for "choosing", I don't believe one has to "choose" anything much really. With an Islamic basis and framework as a guiding Skeleton underlying everything, one can freely appropriate everything they can from everywhere they can and make use of it, chop it up, monotheize it so that it becomes monetized in value for you, Hey Jude, take a sad song and make it better! Reinvest and interpret the words to mean better things for yourself. Steal, Pirate, Hijack everything, take a Church and turn it into a Mosque like the Hagia Sophia, metaphorically too.

I can freely use Christian terminology Islamically, Pagan ideas to refer to God, Atheistic sciences to ponder other truths as well.

I choose everything I can make use of. Islam has deprived me of nothing except evil and stupidity.

39:18
Sahih International: Who listen to speech and follow the best of it. Those are the ones Allah has guided, and those are people of understanding.

Pickthall: Who hear advice and follow the best thereof. Such are those whom Allah guideth, and such are men of understanding.

17:110
Say: "Call upon Allah, or call upon Rahman: by whatever name ye call upon Him, (it is well): for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. Neither speak thy Prayer aloud, nor speak it in a low tone, but seek a middle course between."

7:180
The most beautiful names belong to Allah: so call on him by them; but shun such men as use profanity in his names: for what they do, they will soon be requited.
Or
Muhammad Sarwar: God has the most blessed Names. You should address Him in your worship by these Names and keep away from those who pervert them. They will be recompensed for their (evil) deeds.

Mohsin Khan: And (all) the Most Beautiful Names belong to Allah, so call on Him by them, and leave the company of those who belie or deny (or utter impious speech against) His Names. They will be requited for what they used to do.

All the material in the world may have some use or re-purposing or easy cleansing and correcting to make it of use again, songs, scriptures, parts of hadiths or the writings of Baha'ullah or Gurus or whatever.

Take it all, freely, throw out what acts as a stumbling block or seems flat out wrong or otherwise misleading, listen to everything and take what is best!

Take back Pink and the whole Rainbow! Make use of it in the cause of the Master!

ttps://youtu.be/Iu81WUG9OeU

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

So you, just like the Jews and the Christians believe that your scriptures (the Qur'an) is the final Word of God....
The difference between you and them is they Muslims accept the Torah and the New Testament as legitimate scriptures, but what you have in common with them is that you believe your scriptures are the final say.

I am a Baha'i, and I also believe that the Torah the New Testament and the Qur'an are the Word of God, but I believe that the Writings of Baha'u'llah are the final say (until another Messenger comes in the future), and I believe that the way we get to paradise is by following Baha'u'llah.

“Thou hast gained admittance into the Paradise of God’s Remembrance, through thy recognition of Him Who is the Embodiment of that Remembrance amongst men.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 303

There is basically no room generally for wiggling out now that the Writings of Baha'u'llah are widely and freely and easily accessible:
The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

Not quite. I'd throw the Qur'an in sewage if it didn't say what I wanted it to say. It just happens to say practically every single thing I want it to say, which makes it most useful to me.

Everything is just "stuff", material and blabber which we can use however we may wish to or see fit. The words of Baha'ullah are more material anyone can use and benefit from, and Bahai, if they end up performing the five pillars by chance and are basically Muslims anyway then they are ok, or maybe a Jew who happens to by chance or a Jesuit or something ends up secretly being more Muslim than they might realize, or a Buddhist or Taoist is an accidental Muslim, they all have their reward waiting for them supposedly.

Islam is not a particular anything, its a version of everything, there were Muslim Hindus and Vedic Muslims, Zoroastrian Muslims and Zoroastrian kaffirs, Bahai Muslims and Non-Muslim Bahai. There are even secretly Atheist Muslims that have existed, God is supposed to sort out and sift and bring out the special ones.

They are people who secretly by the will of Allah end up actually being Muslims and performing Islam while realizing it or without realizing it.

They may call Allah Shiva, but not be believing in the images and actually worshipping in the Muslim fashion.

There are secret and were secret Muslim Christians even before Muhammed, even before Christianity.

We are everywhere, but typically a minority, and we belong in every culture, every sect, as a "Witness, A Middle Nation", these are Allah's automatically brainwashed slaves and drones, they are everywhere, they approach and are part of various groups, they are the "good people who believe in the imageless God".

The luckiest of them though are like you and me, who know and can openly say we follow the Qur'an and worship God.

All Muslims, whether they are hidden out in the Amazon jungles, or far in the dusky North, whether they have heard the Qur'an or never heard of any of the well pigmented people we are fond of, worship the imageless God monotheistically with prostration, they fear God and believe in Justice, they are kind to the needy, helpless, children, mentally deficient, animals, they end up fasting even, they end up thinking often and practicing the rememberance of Allah even by other names and their concept of Allah is not given a form, image, limitations or borders, but is Like Nothing but refers to the Ultimate Power.

So yeah, supposedly, anyone in the world who is not that, which is most people, have this song apply to them (but no one is safe!):
(add h as necessary to the beginning of the link)
ttps://youtu.be/DG1CofsVijE

 

[Trailblazer]

Not quite. I'd throw the Qur'an in sewage if it didn't say what I wanted it to say. It just happens to say practically every single thing I want it to say, which makes it most useful to me.

Everything is just "stuff", material and blabber which we can use however we may wish to or see fit. The words of Baha'ullah are more material anyone can use and benefit from,

I do not think that way. I do not think about what I WANT or what is useful to ME, I think about what all of humanity needs and I think about what is the Truth from God. I consider that the only logical way to approach belief. So in my mind, the only thing that matters is whether Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God or not. If He was, everything He wrote is the Truth from God, and it supersedes all of the previous scriptures.

Sure, the Qur'an is true, and according to authoritative Baha'i sources, the Qur'an is the only authentic scripture other than the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah which are wholly authentic since they were penned in their own hands.

The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh
. (28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Now, back to the original question of the Op:

Why do we believe what we do?

It comes down to however we ended up forming, and that we find by the "chance" of our development that the Qur'an is best of all in saying what we want. If there was something better representative of my thoughts, beliefs, desires, whatever, then that is the book I'd promote overall.

Likewise, as much and whatever I can use to represent what I want and want to believe and think, I find, take, and use.

So if I find appropriate and useful things in any scripture that say or seem to say or without too much difficulty or strain can be contorted or distorted to say what I want them to say, I'll use and broadcast and promote.

Just like if I like a certain type of food and feel like eating it, I might seek it out and if I want others to enjoy it, I might share it, unless there was a scarcity, then I would hide it for myself.

There is practically no religion and no word and no "god" even that I haven't claimed for my own use and desires and enjoyment.

"All your base are belong to us" when your "your base" "belong to us" and is such that any terminology can easily be re-attached to a very simple base and one feels free to not eat the unecessary parts of thr fish, like the bones for example, simply remove what is going to create discomfort or difficulties.

Yet, its essentially what I want and what I like.

Some people like polytheism for whatever way they developed, and so they can likewise turn whatever they can into a polytheistic version and interpret everythig the way they want.

That is what we humans do. We do whatever the heck we really want to do, including making fusses about what we think we aren't able to do.

We have behind us our various balloons, cardboard cut outs, and hold our various action figures and wear our preferred paraphernalia.

I believe also because of my logic and reasoning which I consider best, or else I'd follow whatever I think is best or better! Duh!!! Doi!!!! Doh!!!!

I also believe because of "miracles" I think have strongly affirmed my beliefs, and brought confirmation of their reality. If it wasn't for miracles, I think my purely rational beliefs might not really fill me with the same feeling or confidence.

So, why do I believe what I do?

I happened to develop in such a way by various influences and forces to develop certain beliefs and preferences which made the Qur'an most accurate representative and most useful without trouble for me, but I take most of everything and anything else I can use also, except the Qur'an has practically 0 issues for me and is the best of all in its cleanliness to describe exactly what I want.

I have rational and logical ideas to justify my interpretation of life and reality, and most importantly, I believe in the miracles and magic I think I've experienced frequently and constantly including right in front of you people like in finding some of the music or writing certain things.

That is why I believe what I do, which can for me be narrowed down or refined to simply "Because Allah made it so".

Likewise, Allah can (God-forbid) free me from this all and make me a hardcore anything (pornographer?), like a hardcore Christian, hardcore Atheist, though, I'm already pretty hardcore (under the fat) everything.

Atheists say the first part of the Shahadah regularly "There is no god", and I'm also a "True Christian" according to my own delusional views and confidence, and think "I really understand it better than they do" because of how I can freely utilize and apply the ideas. So I'm pretty hardcore, a Calvinist basically, a Unitarian otherwise, but can never be considered a Christian by the mainstream standards because I deny the divine power of the man Jesus or Jesus as God or the literal begotten son of God.

Likewise, Muslims might not accept me as a true Muslim, and that is why religion is a personal matter, between the individual and the true God and whatever imaginary things they might put in between.

My religion, my way of life, is best of all, because of its total freedom, its rampant theft, its gluttonous enjoyment of all human heritage under a monotheistic or even somewhat monistic singular Borg-like singular worship of The One Greatest Ultimate Whatever Imageless Formless All-Power.

I am righteous about Indra, righteous about Tezcatlipoca, all the Gods are my God, all the Gods masks are dropped, and what is left is the Atman, Brahman, Teotl, Numen, Netjer, Wyrd, Tao, Khaos, Protogenoi, Ling, Subhan, Ayn or Ain, whatever, Like Nothing, The Power,The One:

Aztec philosophy - Wikipedia

So, however foolish humans have been, they have left a lot of trash behind for me to enjoy and use to represent whatever I like and enjoy!

ttps://youtu.be/vjGASsP2co0

 

[Trailblazer]

Now, back to the original question of the Op:

Why do we believe what we do?

It comes down to however we ended up forming, and that we find by the "chance" of our development that the Qur'an is best of all in saying what we want. If there was something better representative of my thoughts, beliefs, desires, whatever, then that is the book I'd promote overall.

Likewise, as much and whatever I can use to represent what I want and want to believe and think, I find, take, and use.

So if I find appropriate and useful things in any scripture that say or seem to say or without too much difficulty or strain can be contorted or distorted to say what I want them to say, I'll use and broadcast and promote.

Just like if I like a certain type of food and feel like eating it, I might seek it out and if I want others to enjoy it, I might share it, unless there was a scarcity, then I would hide it for myself.

There is practically no religion and no word and no "god" even that I haven't claimed for my own use and desires and enjoyment.

"All your base are belong to us" when your "your base" "belong to us" and is such that any terminology can easily be re-attached to a very simple base and one feels free to not eat the unecessary parts of thr fish, like the bones for example, simply remove what is going to create discomfort or difficulties.

Yet, its essentially what I want and what I like.

Some people like polytheism for whatever way they developed, and so they can likewise turn whatever they can into a polytheistic version and interpret everythig the way they want.

That is what we humans do. We do whatever the heck we really want to do, including making fusses about what we think we aren't able to do.

We have behind us our various balloons, cardboard cut outs, and hold our various action figures and wear our preferred paraphernalia.

I believe also because of my logic and reasoning which I consider best, or else I'd follow whatever I think is best or better! Duh!!! Doi!!!! Doh!!!!

I also believe because of "miracles" I think have strongly affirmed my beliefs, and brought confirmation of their reality. If it wasn't for miracles, I think my purely rational beliefs might not really fill me with the same feeling or confidence.

So, why do I believe what I do?

I happened to develop in such a way by various influences and forces to develop certain beliefs and preferences which made the Qur'an most accurate representative and most useful without trouble for me, but I take most of everything and anything else I can use also, except the Qur'an has practically 0 issues for me and is the best of all in its cleanliness to describe exactly what I want.

I have rational and logical ideas to justify my interpretation of life and reality, and most importantly, I believe in the miracles and magic I think I've experienced frequently and constantly including right in front of you people like in finding some of the music or writing certain things.

That is why I believe what I do, which can for me be narrowed down or refined to simply "Because Allah made it so".

Likewise, Allah can (God-forbid) free me from this all and make me a hardcore anything (pornographer?), like a hardcore Christian, hardcore Atheist, though, I'm already pretty hardcore (under the fat) everything.

Atheists say the first part of the Shahadah regularly "There is no god", and I'm also a "True Christian" according to my own delusional views and confidence, and think "I really understand it better than they do" because of how I can freely utilize and apply the ideas. So I'm pretty hardcore, a Calvinist basically, a Unitarian otherwise, but can never be considered a Christian by the mainstream standards because I deny the divine power of the man Jesus or Jesus as God or the literal begotten son of God.

Likewise, Muslims might not accept me as a true Muslim, and that is why religion is a personal matter, between the individual and the true God and whatever imaginary things they might put in between.

My religion, my way of life, is best of all, because of its total freedom, its rampant theft, its gluttonous enjoyment of all human heritage under a monotheistic or even somewhat monistic singular Borg-like singular worship of The One Greatest Ultimate Whatever Imageless Formless All-Power.

I am righteous about Indra, righteous about Tezcatlipoca, all the Gods are my God, all the Gods masks are dropped, and what is left is the Atman, Brahman, Teotl, Numen, Netjer, Wyrd, Tao, Khaos, Protogenoi, Ling, Subhan, Ayn or Ain, whatever, Like Nothing, The Power,The One:

Aztec philosophy - Wikipedia

So, however foolish humans have been, they have left a lot of trash behind for me to enjoy and use to represent whatever I like and enjoy!

ttps://youtu.be/vjGASsP2co0

My academic background is psychology, and I think a lot of what we decide to believe is related to our childhood upbringing and our later life experiences, but also our personality. I was raised in no religion at all and not believing in God so I did not even think of the Baha'i Faith as a religion when I stumbled upon it at age 17, I considered it a Cause, and I was attracted to it because I am an idealist so I was drawn to the message of the unity of mankind, world peace and the elimination of prejudice of all kinds. I also liked some of the spiritual teachings such as about the soul and the afterlife.

I am not a smorgasbord type of person, I tend to be single-focused and I feel no need to compare once I have found what I am looking for. That said, I have learned about other religions and I like many features of many of them, but I feel no need for more than one religion, and I have found the one I believe is the one God wants me to believe.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I do not think that way. I do not think about what I WANT or what is useful to ME, I think about what all of humanity needs and I think about what is the Truth from God. I consider that the only logical way to approach belief. So in my mind, the only thing that matters is whether Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God or not. If He was, everything He wrote is the Truth from God, and it supersedes all of the previous scriptures.

Sure, the Qur'an is true, and according to authoritative Baha'i sources, the Qur'an is the only authentic scripture other than the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah which are wholly authentic since they were penned in their own hands.

The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh
. (28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

Humanity doesn't matter to me, only saving my skin, extending my pleasure.

For example, if I thought all humanity would be saved by my infinite torture, or all humanity would suffer but I'd be better and safe, I'd always choose the option where I don't go through the eternal suffering. For me thats simply "duh, doi, doh"! People are not my concern because I'm not experiencing them or being them or experiencing what they are experiencing, they might not be experiencing anything for all I know, they could be illusions that only prance around in my experience, it can never be confirmed, so they don't really matter as much as I do to me, and I assume, as much as you should to you. No one should suffer eternal damnation for the sake of others, luckily, we all have to fight for our lives, we can't even save those we might really love and care about, but we should try, because we derive pleasure from their presence and empathize with their comfortm and joy and double ours through theirs, but if its at the cost of us, then its worthless and nothing can be enjoyed.

So mememe!

People say a lot of gooey stuff to make them sound good, they do so in romantic statements too "I'd give you the moon baby" but these are just delusions and lies people tell and say of themselves too.

One may even genuinely die for another, but would never die for another if they thought their death would lead to permanent horrific suffering for all eternity, then unless they are very stupid and haven't thought it through, its everyone for themselves. We die for others perhaps if we think we'll be otherwised saved or in a neutral state or tolerable state or tolerable discomfort or anything else, but few people even dare comprehend the intolerabls which when meditated upon may bring great clarity.
ttps://youtu.be/Zg2IcEHWXWo

This video (which needs an h added to the link), may just appear to be random violence but it actually can be used to refer to some of the themes discussed above (one comment seems to bring such to the forefront). It discusses the things we might do for others and that it comes down to just us too and what we've done.

These are the lyrics since its hard to hear in the video version:
ttps://youtu.be/zlry5aWPC2k

I've never heard the song before, and so consider all things produced by God, so that Baha'ullah brought the message for many, as did Moby Dick the novel get produced and brought to the senses of some all by God:

Occasionalism - Wikipedia

So its no problem for me to interpret any human at any moment as a transmitter of the message or a reminder of the truth, me, you, and what we produce, for better or for worse, good songs, bad songs, if we use them in ways that benefit us, or harm us, All is from God down to what we think we decided to do and why.

ttps://youtu.be/j-bYixoB8UM

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Haha, this is amazing, now about 3 times in a row I've been writing stuff which gets posted after you've written stuff I haven't read which seems to cover topics eventually or themes that are brought up. I just had to mention it since I just posted a video about a Psychologist and then saw you mention the psychology thing even!

 

[Link]

Fear is the greater appreciator of God's favor and is the greater wing of love.

Love is hopeful, but to hope to gain, without protecting what you have and appreciating what you have, is vain.

When you protect (fear is love trying to protect) what you have, then hoping for more makes sense, and is not irrational.

However, if you don't guard what you have and have long hopes, you are irrational and ungrateful.

 

[Link]

Fear which is a great emotion to protect what we have, and is derived from love, is looked down upon society because the devils like their intention in making proofs of God ambiguous, seek to destroy all truth found in the revelations of God.

 

[Link]

And fear is the protector side of love, and those who wish to break down the barriers to destroy society, wish humans to be without it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Humanity doesn't matter to me, only saving my skin, extending my pleasure.

You would never be attracted to the Bahai Faith then, given this is what we consider important:

“Though loyal to their respective governments, though imbued with the love of their own country, and anxious to promote at all times, its best interests, the followers of the Bahá’í Faith, nevertheless, viewing mankind as one entity, and profoundly attached to its vital interests, will not hesitate to subordinate every particular interest, be it personal, regional or national, to the over-riding interests of the generality of mankind, knowing full well that in a world of interdependent peoples and nations the advantage of the part is best to be reached by the advantage of the whole, and that no lasting result can be achieved by any of the component parts if the general interests of the entity itself are neglected….” The Promised Day Is Come, vi - vii

For example, if I thought all humanity would be saved by my infinite torture, or all humanity would suffer but I'd be better and safe, I'd always choose the option where I don't go through the eternal suffering. For me thats simply "duh, doi, doh"! People are not my concern because I'm not experiencing them or being them or experiencing what they are experiencing, they might not be experiencing anything for all I know, they could be illusions that only prance around in my experience, it can never be confirmed, so they don't really matter as much as I do to me, and I assume, as much as you should to you.

No, I do not matter more to me than other people matter to me; in fact other people matter more to me. The very worst thing I can imagine is being selfish -- been there, done that, it was hell even though at the time I did not know I was in hell... It is not always easy to sacrifice things I might want for the sake of others but I try to do it out of principle, because it is a Baha'i teaching. The Evil One He is talking about in this passage is the lower selfish nature of man:

“How high the reward of him that hath not deprived himself of so great a bounty, nor failed to recognize the beauty of his Best-Beloved in this, His new attire.Watch over yourselves, for the Evil One is lying in wait, ready to entrap you. Gird yourselves against his wicked devices, and, led by the light of the name of the All-Seeing God, make your escape from the darkness that surroundeth you. Let your vision be world-embracing, rather than confined to your own self. The Evil One is he that hindereth the rise and obstructeth the spiritual progress of the children of men.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 94

It is also a Christian teaching, as I believe that Satan in these verses represents the lower selfish nature of man that savourest not the things that be of God. Look how similar these verses are to what Baha'u'llah wrote:

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Why do you think humanity would be saved by your infinite torture? Why do you think that you would have to sacrifice your eternal life for humanity, as if it is an either/or? It is rather the other way around because the way you attain eternal life is by service to humanity, as Jesus said:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[icehorse]

I don`t know what you have been reading, But one thing is sure was not the Quran. Unless you pick up what you don`t want to hear and you leave the rest.

Please give me a little credit. Of course I know that the book claims, ad nauseam, that Allah is merciful. But if you read the rest of the book, you can quickly see that that is simply not true. Allah - as described in the book - is petty, insecure, vindictive, cruel, and self-centered. A true psychopath, just like our current president.

So the bottom line is that the book is incoherent. In other words, it contradicts itself frequently.

Very beautiful and tear-jerking verses that God has deprived icehorse of being capable of enjoying.

I can't imagine where you got the idea that an atheist like me cannot enjoy beautiful verses, of course we can. The only difference is that we don't attribute them to supernatural beings, we appreciate that our talented fellow human beings were the creators of such beauty.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Please give me a little credit. Of course I know that the book claims, ad nauseam, that Allah is merciful. But if you read the rest of the book, you can quickly see that that is simply not true. Allah - as described in the book - is petty, insecure, vindictive, cruel, and self-centered. A true psychopath, just like our current president.

So the bottom line is that the book is incoherent. In other words, it contradicts itself frequently.



I can't imagine where you got the idea that an atheist like me cannot enjoy beautiful verses, of course we can. The only difference is that we don't attribute them to supernatural beings, we appreciate that our talented fellow human beings were the creators of such beauty.

I think you can enjoy it probably, though its unlikely you do, but even if you do, its unlikely you enjoy it or get anything like the stimulation and emotional feeling a religious fanatic or crazy person does, its just highly doubtful you could ever feel the same way or reaction as a nutjob who actually believes it is about God and from God etc. How could you? Pretty much impossible.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Fear is the greater appreciator of God's favor and is the greater wing of love.

Love is hopeful, but to hope to gain, without protecting what you have and appreciating what you have, is vain.

When you protect (fear is love trying to protect) what you have, then hoping for more makes sense, and is not irrational.

However, if you don't guard what you have and have long hopes, you are irrational and ungrateful.

I enjoyed your three posts concerning fear! I agree also!