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Proof of Islam?

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Holy Prophet Muhammad (S) is the last of the divine prophets. After His Eminence, no other prophet is going to be sent by God. The Prophet of Islam, from the beginning of his mission, introduced himself as the seal of the prophets and was accepted by the Muslims as such. The subject of finality of prophethood in the Islamic milieu is considered to be an important matter and it is not in need of evidence.

Finality is mentioned in the Holy Quran as well as books of traditions. It is mentioned in Quran that:

“Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.” (33:40)


If the Arabic word of KH-T-M is recited with vowel ‘I’ on ‘T”, as some reciters have done this, it would imply one who ends something; thus it clearly shows that The Holy Prophet Muhammad (S) is the last of the prophets. But if it is recited with the vowel ‘A’ on ‘T’ it denotes a thing with which something ends. Ring and seal are also called as such, because they are placed at the end of a letter and indicate the end of it. According to the second possibility also, it is concluded from the verse that the Holy Prophet (S) is the last prophet, because he is introduced as a seal, which has come at the end of the letter of prophethood.

Therefore, no other prophet is to appear after him. Thus the finality of the Prophet of Islam is nicely concluded from the above verse as the Muslims of the early period of Islam also understood it in this meaning and did not have any doubt in the finality of the prophethood of His Eminence.

Other verses also exist in this regard, but there is no need to mention them here.

A large number of traditions also exist with regard to finality of prophethood and some of them are mentioned below:Saad Ibn Abi Waqqas has narrated from his father that the Messenger of Allah (S) said to Imam Ali (a.s.):You are to me as Harun was to Musa (a.s.), except that there is no prophet after me.

There is no more Nabis (Anbiya) but there are still Messengers. Without the Mahdi here, and his message, we won't cease to disagree on Quran and Quran ceases to guide humans and unite them without an authority to refer to for it's interpretation.

This is why a great deal if not most of the Quran is about the need of leaders and Messengers aside from revelations to humanity(role of a Nabi).
 
I agree that there won't be agreement between humans generally, and so it is likely necessary to each keep to ourselves with the ocassional risk at trying to offer some people what we think is good. I enjoyed reading what duncan wrote, and if wolf spirit wants to talk to a good proper muslim (Sunni) they should speak with duncan. If wolf wants to talk to a person more of the shia orientation then there is Link to talk to. If wolf wants to talk to a Bahai type, there is the Bahai fellow who is very nice and probably willing to speak to them. If they want a Rabbi, there is RabbiO, so really, everything is made available to the wolf, but maybe the wolf is well fed enough to be picky about which they devour.

I think that Islam is only for a select few people, and here is how it plays out for them:

They are in some way, out of some motivation, either hatred, curiousity, or a certain attraction or fondness, one way or another interested in reading the Qur'an or a Qur'an unexpectedly comes there way.

They then are given circumstances which in some cases may be troubling and eventually time to read it and they finally are able to give it a good go at reading it.

Then while reading it the select few are increasingly absorbed by its words and don't find the Bible quite the same, and the Qur'an starts to make sense of the Bible as well and make sense of a lot of things, as its hypnotic hold over the person seems to download itself into their mind and play and whisper into their thoughts even while it is closed and they are going about their day.

What happens eventually then is coming to terms with really finding oneself a believer in it, and this part can be difficult or even painful or embarassing for many as their identity and the world built around it and fitting with it and their shape and behaviors may start to change and a lot of attachments might have to be cleansed out or start altering. An old version of oneself is dying out and a new person is forming like a virus changing DNA.

Finally, a person might try to mingle with community, and quite often new issues emerge, and the second set of refinement through struggle and conflict may emerge, and many find that the large population of Muslims doesn't seem that large afterall, when your special and intimate and very personal relationship with the Qur'an is not really recognized or confirmed by the ideas of most others, who are seeing something else, or saying like Link that they need a guide for a clear book. Since Allah is controlling how we see and interpret it, our minds and experiences are controlled, though people hate to admit it.

Then the "elite" or possibly the "mad" at this point, find that their religion is mostly a private matter that they personally enjoy. So a wolf might find this difficult if they need a pack or an authority.

The very few left, are those people who like the Prophets themselves were in many ways alone with their God, the God of all but the God of few.

Even so, you'll think you're right, and that God is your guide and your savior, but you'll always be afraid, and never really know for certain what will occur, and so will tremble and worship God, and read the Qur'an, all the rest of your days, and follow the 5 pillars and more good, and will die a Muslim, as far as you tried your darndest to exceed everyone and not submit to anything you thought was wrong.

Then you will in your death be placed at the mercy of Allah, not knowing if you will have made the grade, but earnestly hoping it is so and that your struggles and worship you invested will have for you a treasure waiting in the next life.

Yet, not even the honor of trying may be granted to anyone except those selected by Allah, and it starts back where I mentioned an inkling and an urge and an interest and a pursuit and a time and a reading and a whole effort and then all the rest!

[email protected]

You don't need an open mind to read the Qur'an, you don't need to "give it a chance". You can read it even at war with it or in conflict. It is like a medicine or a virus. It reveals a person. You should test it like you might test a food or a drug. Its like a litmus or acidity test or a pregnancy test. You only need to try to read it and it will either do its magic which is Allah doing it, or not, which is Allah doing it.

Then if it is so, you can say "I tried reading the Qur'an, I didn't like what it had to say, I didn't like its flavor, it didn't make me different, it wasn't anything special" and that "according to some weirdo, that must mean I am not supposed to be a Muslim, because I have no interest in ever becoming a Muslim, nor do I believe the Qur'an" and if you are a Christian you can say "The weirdo told me that if I choose to be called a Christian, and reject the Qur'an, that is God's will, according to the Weird One". So be it! At least see! Of course, you will if you will if Allah wills you to will so, and you won't and can't and never can, until you do, which is the precise time you are supposed to. So I challenge you and anyone to do it as soon as possible and get it over with so you can throw the Qur'an behind your back or become transformed and consumed by it for better or for worse!

www.islamawakened.com/quran to find a translation you like or read it line by line in multiple translations for each verse!

Wyrd - Wikipedia
 
Warning: My answer is decidedly harsh.

I think Islam and Christianity are brilliant when it comes to indoctrination and preying on the weak. They are both a lot like unscrupulous used car salesmen, painting rosy pictures and making promises they cannot keep. Further, they unabashedly borrow the best of humanities morals and ethics and attempt to claim them as their own. And even worse, in addition to co-opting good ideas, they also claim that their horrible ideas (like scapegoating and tribalism), are good ideas.
Hello,

I am interested in finding out why Muslims believe Islam is the right religion, and discussing these points.
Alternatively, non-Muslims who have an idea as to why Muslims have this belief.

There are almost 2 billion Muslims, so there must be a reason they believe, however I have searched many different places and can’t find a reason I can accept.

Any reasons welcome, but especially if anyone has reasons which are more uncommon, as I have looked at the more common ones already.

This is coming from a Christian standpoint.

Thank you.
I don't think it is a good idea to ask Muslims why they believe their religion is the right one becasue they will give you all the 'rosy' answers.
On the other hand if you ask a Christian why it isn't the right religion they will give other 'rosy' answers.
I did my own research some years ago just out of interest so I am pretty objective, I don't wish to be disrespectful but in my opinion Muhammad had some mental issues. Anyone who wrote about the truth of what is known as 'The Satanic Verses' were discredited by being called liars and heretics.
Did you know that Muslim's don't believe Jesus was put to death? On one hand they say Jesus was a holy man sent by God but he never sacrificed himself he got someone else to die in his place. How is that for a contradiction, Jesus is a man sent by God but also a liar and a trickster who let someone die in his place.
I think like some countries where Catholicism is the major religion Islam is a result of social conditioning.

Do your own research, unfortunately over the last few years there has been an explosion of websites praising Islam, you really have to dig, find out the names of some of the scribes and read their writings, I think you will get a far more honest insight into Muhammad.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Quran is clear but the sorcery upon it makes it difficult for hard hearts to understand. Those who don't envy but love Ahlulbayt and approach Ahlulbayt as thirsty towards them as Quran, will find, Quran majestic in wonders.

Everyone else is in their own delusion thinking they understand Quran when they are far removed from it's light.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
The Quran is clear but the sorcery upon it makes it difficult for hard hearts to understand. Those who don't envy but love Ahlulbayt and approach Ahlulbayt as thirsty towards them as Quran, will find, Quran majestic in wonders.

Everyone else is in their own delusion thinking they understand Quran when they are far removed from it's light.

Sometimes a person's arguments are based on logic and critical thinking, and sometimes their arguments are based on faith. That's true of everyone, so there's no judgment about that, it's just data.

But I hope you realize that your argument here is a faith argument, not a logical one?
 
The Quran is clear but the sorcery upon it makes it difficult for hard hearts to understand. Those who don't envy but love Ahlulbayt and approach Ahlulbayt as thirsty towards them as Quran, will find, Quran majestic in wonders.

Everyone else is in their own delusion thinking they understand Quran when they are far removed from it's light.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.....John 4:1-6
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sometimes a person's arguments are based on logic and critical thinking, and sometimes their arguments are based on faith. That's true of everyone, so there's no judgment about that, it's just data.

But I hope you realize that your argument here is a faith argument, not a logical one?

It's both. I see rationally, black magic is the only thing and the nature of jealousy and disbelief to be the only possible explanation to the decontextualization that happens to Quran of verses that are paramount for guidance.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
It's both. I see rationally, black magic is the only thing and the nature of jealousy and disbelief to be the only possible explanation to the decontextualization that happens to Quran of verses that are paramount for guidance.

Okay, a bit more precisely:

you start with a faith-based starting point, but then you add fallacy arguments, e.g. a false dilemma in your post above.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Okay, a bit more precisely:

you start with a faith-based starting point, but then you add fallacy arguments, e.g. a false dilemma in your post above.

It's not the case of either of your points. You don't know what I'm talking about but you pretend that you do.
 

Duncan

Member
Muhammad had some mental issues

Wow that is extremely disrespectful, full of hate, but ignorance generate hate. But please let me share something with you.

To delegitimize the Messenger peace be upon him is to call into question the entire message. During his time, the Meccans called him a poet, a magician, and a madman, among other names. Today, he is insulted with other labels. But perhaps the most invidious insult, designed to undermine the powerful establishment and spread of his message, is that he overcame his foes with terror only to rule them with cruelty. Descriptions of Muhammad`s peace be upon him life, military career, and traditions form the foundation for most judgments about his mission. Islam as a whole, through these depictions, is seen as either a religion of peace or a religion of war, depending on which interpretation of the messenger and message is followed.

What is uncontroversial is that Muhammad peace be upon him succeeded at wielding unprecedented power after decades of persecution. Michael Hart, who famously considered him the most influential man in history, wrote:

My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world’s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level.

and not only Michael Hart, but also others like:

Lamartine, Histoire de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol II, pp. 276-77:

“If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad?

Bosworth Smith, Mohammed and Mohammadanism, London 1874, p. 92:

“He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope’s pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports.”

Annie Besant, The Life and Teachings of Muhammad, Madras 1932, p. 4:

“It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher.”

W. Montgomery, Mohammad at Mecca, Oxford 1953, p. 52:

“His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement – all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.”

Encyclopedia Britannica:

“....a mass of detail in the early sources show that he was an honest and upright man who had gained the respect and loyalty of others who were like-wise honest and upright men.” (Vol. 12)

George Bernard Shaw said about him:

“He must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it much needed peace and happiness.”

Did you say he had mental issues? by the way all of them highly educated and non Muslim. Clearly you didn't dig deep enough.

Jesus is a man sent by God but also a liar and a trickster who let someone die in his place.

A liar and trickster? Muslims respect and revere Jesus (peace be upon him) and await his Second Coming. They consider him one of the greatest of God's messengers to mankind. A Muslim never refers to him simply as 'Jesus', but always adds the phrase 'upon him be peace'. The Quran confirms his virgin birth (a chapter of the Quran is entitled 'Mary'), and Mary is considered the purest woman in all creation.
 

Duncan

Member
The Satanic Verses

Some claim that the Quran was the work of the devil. Lets see how much sense (or non-sense) this allegation makes.

So you go with Salman Rushdi theory that Satan wrote the Quran, cool. If he authored or inspired the Quran, why would Satan curse himself and call himself the worst enemy of man (Indeed, Satan is an enemy to you; so take him as an enemy. He only invites his party to be among the companions of the Blaze.35:6;
Did I not enjoin upon you, O children of Adam, that you not worship Satan - [for] indeed, he is to you a clear enemy 36:60)? Why would Satan command that before reciting the Quran, one must first say:

“…I seek refuge in God from Satan the accursed.” (16:98)

How could Satan so vehemently condemn himself? Is it really acceptable to common sense to hold the view that Satan would ask people to do good, to be moral and virtuous, to worship none but God, to not follow Satan or his whispers, and to avoid and struggle against evil?

To hold such a view is clearly repugnant to reason, as Satan has only undermined himself through this means if he is the author. Even the Bible attests:

“And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end.” (Mark 3:26)

This argument applies to any “Satanic forces”, be they “evil spirits”, “deceitful aliens”, etc.

Within the Quran are recorded facts about ancient times that were unknown to Muhammad’s contemporaries and even to historians in the first half of the 20th century. In scores of verses, we also find references to scientific wonders, some only recently discovered or confirmed, regarding the universe, biology, embryology, astronomy, physics, geography, meteorology, medicine, history, oceanography, etc. Below are some examples of modern scientific discoveries mentioned in the Quran.

· The Lost City of Iram. (Quran 89:7)

· Worker bees being female. (Quran 16:68)

· Mountains as “stakes” and stabilizers. (Quran 78:6-7)

· The spherical shape of the Earth. (Quran 7:54; 36:37; 31:29)

· The expanding universe. (Quran 51:47)

· The “Big Bang”. (Quran 21:30)

· That at one point in time, the whole universe was nothing but a cloud of “smoke”. (Quran 41:11)

· The Quranic description of the development of the human embryo. (Quran 23:12-14)

If you are interested in further examples, I suggest you “The Bible, the Quran and Science” by Maurice Bucaille, “Struggling to Surrender” p.33-38, by Jeffery Lang, “The Quranic Phenomenon” by Malik Bennabi, “The Developing Human”, 3rd edition, by Keith L. Moore, “A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam”, by I. A. Ibrahim, “The Sources of the Quran” by Hamza Mustapha Njozi, “The Basis of Muslim Beliefs” and “The Amazing Quran” by Gary Miller

How many well trained modern scientists and geniuses with the aid of hi-tech equipment, satellites, telescopes, microscopes and computers were required to discover the scientific facts mentioned in the Quran, and over what time span? Is it even conceivable that any human being over 1,400 years ago could have produced a scripture with such information in it, let alone a person who had never been educated?

Although the inability of man to encompass all the mysteries and complexity of creation is mentioned in the Quran (67:3-4), the revelation nevertheless seems to point to various natural phenomena as if urging human beings to enquire and verify what is said – again, with such an attitude of confidence that one can only assume the author is indeed challenging our disbelief. To be generous to the skeptic, perhaps one or two of the scientific revelations were the result of nothing more than a good guess or coincidence, but how probable could it have been that they all were?

Comparing Quranic statements that deal with the physical universe with certain scientific notions leads us to discover profound similarities. But, more notably, as Dr. Maurice Bucaille observes, the Quran is distinguished from all other works of antiquity that describe or attempt to explain the workings of nature in that it avoids mistaken concepts. For in the Quran, many subjects are referred to that have a bearing on modern knowledge without a single statement contradicting what has been established by present-day science.

Dr. Bucaille goes as far as to conclude his study with the following remark:

“In view of the level of knowledge in Muhammad’s day, it is inconceivable that many statements in the Quran which are connected with science could have been the work of a man. It is, moreover, perfectly legitimate, not only to regard the Quran as an expression of Revelation, but also to award it a very special place, on account of the guarantee of authenticity it provides and the presence in it of scientific statements which, when studied today, appear as a challenge to explanation in human terms.”

I hope this will give you a reason to research better and thoroughly on who is Muhammad peace be upon him (mentioned in the old testament and the new testament) and what the Quran is.
 

Wow that is extremely disrespectful, full of hate, but ignorance generate hate. But please let me share something with you.

To delegitimize the Messenger peace be upon him is to call into question the entire message. During his time, the Meccans called him a poet, a magician, and a madman, among other names. Today, he is insulted with other labels. But perhaps the most invidious insult, designed to undermine the powerful establishment and spread of his message, is that he overcame his foes with terror only to rule them with cruelty. Descriptions of Muhammad`s peace be upon him life, military career, and traditions form the foundation for most judgments about his mission. Islam as a whole, through these depictions, is seen as either a religion of peace or a religion of war, depending on which interpretation of the messenger and message is followed.

What is uncontroversial is that Muhammad peace be upon him succeeded at wielding unprecedented power after decades of persecution. Michael Hart, who famously considered him the most influential man in history, wrote:

My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world’s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level.

and not only Michael Hart, but also others like:

Lamartine, Histoire de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol II, pp. 276-77:

“If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad?

Bosworth Smith, Mohammed and Mohammadanism, London 1874, p. 92:

“He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope’s pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports.”

Annie Besant, The Life and Teachings of Muhammad, Madras 1932, p. 4:

“It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher.”

W. Montgomery, Mohammad at Mecca, Oxford 1953, p. 52:

“His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement – all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.”

Encyclopedia Britannica:

“....a mass of detail in the early sources show that he was an honest and upright man who had gained the respect and loyalty of others who were like-wise honest and upright men.” (Vol. 12)

George Bernard Shaw said about him:

“He must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it much needed peace and happiness.”

Did you say he had mental issues? by the way all of them highly educated and non Muslim. Clearly you didn't dig deep enough.



A liar and trickster? Muslims respect and revere Jesus (peace be upon him) and await his Second Coming. They consider him one of the greatest of God's messengers to mankind. A Muslim never refers to him simply as 'Jesus', but always adds the phrase 'upon him be peace'. The Quran confirms his virgin birth (a chapter of the Quran is entitled 'Mary'), and Mary is considered the purest woman in all creation.
A magnifique post! I'll offer another perspective, a controversial one, which should not be brought to people in general probably but may be useful when dealing with those hostile to Muhammed.

First I'll say, none of us knew Muhammed, nor any of those who wrote about him after he was gone.

To me, Muhammed is not important really, he didn't know me, I didn't know him. All I have now is the Qur'an, words attributed to the work put forth through someone called Muhammed a long time ago. In Occitan, Muhammed is spelled Baphomet.

The Qur'an is said by many to be authored by Satan. I may know Satan and Satan may know me, but without my very sure or careful awareness, I have no idea if I've ever had dealings with Satan or not. Even if I did, I wouldn't know if he really wrote the Qur'an, even if anything appeared to me and said "I am the Devil and I wrote the Qur'an, I also do lots of bad things".

All that is mainly irrelevant.

So if Muhammed or Baphomet, refers to some evil being, and Satan wrote some graffiti, wrote it in whatever substance you consider most filthy, does it really matter? What matters is what use there may be in the content surely.

If a convicted serial rapist and pedophile covered in tattoos depicting theor crimes and with "Ha Ha Ha" written in between them says to me "2+2=4" should I say "not when you say it, bub! Now you've ruined math!"? Does 2+2=4 become untrue, lose its power?

Bill Cosby supposedly raped a lot of women he drugged. Does it make the Cosby show unfunny? One can't appreciate something much lovable, a performance, regardless of what the character was or was said to have been outside of their role?

Some people move into homes where terrible things have been done in those homes, sometimes they know, sometimes they don't know, but does it make the house defenseless against rain or is it still a functional shelter, albeit with a few ghosts and skeletons in the closet? Does that last joke become unfunny because my breath probably stinks right now from fasting? Nay, surely it was unfunny from the beginning!

What if a monkey comes down from the sky and says "I am God" and then produces a dancing book which says in a book-like accent "Muhammed was a bad bad man, the writer of the Qur'an was a villain! He lied. He stole! He cheated!" should we believe it? Surely, a monkey from the sky calling itself God with a dancing book that talks says so.

Muhammed is similar to everything behind this wall next to me. I have no idea what is going on on the otherside of this wall, anything could be going on outside on the other side of this wall, I think I have more pertinent matters to concern myself with, like what is going on here on my side of the wall. On my side of the wall are resources, technologies and books, materials, elements, watet, food, a body, my body! What can I do with these? I can throw them away and make some room, or I can try to use them in ways that might be expected to sensibly benefit me.

There are also ways to misuse or use in non-beneficial ways these resources. For example, I could have a cookbook, and decide to cook the book and eat it, but that would not provide me with much nutrition or value, it may even be considered a destructive waste (but maybe you could discover something very unexpected if you tried it out, maybe even something about yourself which you haven't yet realized).

So, what to do with what comes our way? My answer would be, to do what we think can extract the most use and benefit out of it? What about this tomato? Did you know this tomato was harvested by a man who raped his own sister? Don't ask me how I know that, for it is written, here, by me, as you can clearly see. Should I throw this tomato in the trash? It touched others as well in order to reach me, but he picked it out of the ground from its root. Shall we use it in some recipe or give it to the decomposers? Ah, you're allergic to tomatoes I see, so no tomato for you then, and why are you in my house? Why can mean what benefit do you provide to justify your presence or interaction with me, or are you just a waste, like a tomato you can't eat without swelling and turning red like one yourself, or books you can't read because of imaginary sins by imaginary sinners? Well, you probably have many uses, if we put our minds to it, and the least use might be if you were discarded, or discarded for your sins even. So how do we make use of you? Well, you're not very good at making use of things yourself, so how about cooking? Well the tomatoes might be an issue there. Can you clean?

If you can clean, can you also clean items using your skill and intelligence to make them available for extended use to you and us? Or as soon as some dirt touches a thing you simply throw it in the trash or even if it looks a little stained somehow, you can't bare to look at it? Is that what Jesus would do? Maybe, I never knew him personally while he walked the Earth, but someone said he was a liar, a trickster, a magician, a madman with mental problems, and they wrote many tales about him, what should I do with those? Maybe throw them in the trash along with those killer tomatoes and rotten reviews?

Do you understand?

We have content, make use for it or throw it behind your backs for petty and senseless reasons, the loss is only yours, water doesn't need you to drink it even though its available for you to drink it, you can totally skip drinking it, maybe water prefers that anyway.

www.islamawakened.com/quran if you want to give mental illness another try.
 

Wow that is extremely disrespectful, full of hate, but ignorance generate hate. But please let me share something with you.

To delegitimize the Messenger peace be upon him is to call into question the entire message. During his time, the Meccans called him a poet, a magician, and a madman, among other names. Today, he is insulted with other labels. But perhaps the most invidious insult, designed to undermine the powerful establishment and spread of his message, is that he overcame his foes with terror only to rule them with cruelty. Descriptions of Muhammad`s peace be upon him life, military career, and traditions form the foundation for most judgments about his mission. Islam as a whole, through these depictions, is seen as either a religion of peace or a religion of war, depending on which interpretation of the messenger and message is followed.

What is uncontroversial is that Muhammad peace be upon him succeeded at wielding unprecedented power after decades of persecution. Michael Hart, who famously considered him the most influential man in history, wrote:

My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world’s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level.

and not only Michael Hart, but also others like:

Lamartine, Histoire de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol II, pp. 276-77:

“If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad?

Bosworth Smith, Mohammed and Mohammadanism, London 1874, p. 92:

“He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope’s pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports.”

Annie Besant, The Life and Teachings of Muhammad, Madras 1932, p. 4:

“It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher.”

W. Montgomery, Mohammad at Mecca, Oxford 1953, p. 52:

“His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement – all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.”

Encyclopedia Britannica:

“....a mass of detail in the early sources show that he was an honest and upright man who had gained the respect and loyalty of others who were like-wise honest and upright men.” (Vol. 12)

George Bernard Shaw said about him:

“He must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it much needed peace and happiness.”

Did you say he had mental issues? by the way all of them highly educated and non Muslim. Clearly you didn't dig deep enough.



A liar and trickster? Muslims respect and revere Jesus (peace be upon him) and await his Second Coming. They consider him one of the greatest of God's messengers to mankind. A Muslim never refers to him simply as 'Jesus', but always adds the phrase 'upon him be peace'. The Quran confirms his virgin birth (a chapter of the Quran is entitled 'Mary'), and Mary is considered the purest woman in all creation.
 
A magnifique post! I'll offer another perspective, a controversial one, which should not be brought to people in general probably but may be useful when dealing with those hostile to Muhammed.

First I'll say, none of us knew Muhammed, nor any of those who wrote about him after he was gone.

To me, Muhammed is not important really, he didn't know me, I didn't know him. All I have now is the Qur'an, words attributed to the work put forth through someone called Muhammed a long time ago. In Occitan, Muhammed is spelled Baphomet.

The Qur'an is said by many to be authored by Satan. I may know Satan and Satan may know me, but without my very sure or careful awareness, I have no idea if I've ever had dealings with Satan or not. Even if I did, I wouldn't know if he really wrote the Qur'an, even if anything appeared to me and said "I am the Devil and I wrote the Qur'an, I also do lots of bad things".

All that is mainly irrelevant.

So if Muhammed or Baphomet, refers to some evil being, and Satan wrote some graffiti, wrote it in whatever substance you consider most filthy, does it really matter? What matters is what use there may be in the content surely.

If a convicted serial rapist and pedophile covered in tattoos depicting theor crimes and with "Ha Ha Ha" written in between them says to me "2+2=4" should I say "not when you say it, bub! Now you've ruined math!"? Does 2+2=4 become untrue, lose its power?

Bill Cosby supposedly raped a lot of women he drugged. Does it make the Cosby show unfunny? One can't appreciate something much lovable, a performance, regardless of what the character was or was said to have been outside of their role?

Some people move into homes where terrible things have been done in those homes, sometimes they know, sometimes they don't know, but does it make the house defenseless against rain or is it still a functional shelter, albeit with a few ghosts and skeletons in the closet? Does that last joke become unfunny because my breath probably stinks right now from fasting? Nay, surely it was unfunny from the beginning!

What if a monkey comes down from the sky and says "I am God" and then produces a dancing book which says in a book-like accent "Muhammed was a bad bad man, the writer of the Qur'an was a villain! He lied. He stole! He cheated!" should we believe it? Surely, a monkey from the sky calling itself God with a dancing book that talks says so.

Muhammed is similar to everything behind this wall next to me. I have no idea what is going on on the otherside of this wall, anything could be going on outside on the other side of this wall, I think I have more pertinent matters to concern myself with, like what is going on here on my side of the wall. On my side of the wall are resources, technologies and books, materials, elements, watet, food, a body, my body! What can I do with these? I can throw them away and make some room, or I can try to use them in ways that might be expected to sensibly benefit me.

There are also ways to misuse or use in non-beneficial ways these resources. For example, I could have a cookbook, and decide to cook the book and eat it, but that would not provide me with much nutrition or value, it may even be considered a destructive waste (but maybe you could discover something very unexpected if you tried it out, maybe even something about yourself which you haven't yet realized).

So, what to do with what comes our way? My answer would be, to do what we think can extract the most use and benefit out of it? What about this tomato? Did you know this tomato was harvested by a man who raped his own sister? Don't ask me how I know that, for it is written, here, by me, as you can clearly see. Should I throw this tomato in the trash? It touched others as well in order to reach me, but he picked it out of the ground from its root. Shall we use it in some recipe or give it to the decomposers? Ah, you're allergic to tomatoes I see, so no tomato for you then, and why are you in my house? Why can mean what benefit do you provide to justify your presence or interaction with me, or are you just a waste, like a tomato you can't eat without swelling and turning red like one yourself, or books you can't read because of imaginary sins by imaginary sinners? Well, you probably have many uses, if we put our minds to it, and the least use might be if you were discarded, or discarded for your sins even. So how do we make use of you? Well, you're not very good at making use of things yourself, so how about cooking? Well the tomatoes might be an issue there. Can you clean?

If you can clean, can you also clean items using your skill and intelligence to make them available for extended use to you and us? Or as soon as some dirt touches a thing you simply throw it in the trash or even if it looks a little stained somehow, you can't bare to look at it? Is that what Jesus would do? Maybe, I never knew him personally while he walked the Earth, but someone said he was a liar, a trickster, a magician, a madman with mental problems, and they wrote many tales about him, what should I do with those? Maybe throw them in the trash along with those killer tomatoes and rotten reviews?

Do you understand?

We have content, make use for it or throw it behind your backs for petty and senseless reasons, the loss is only yours, water doesn't need you to drink it even though its available for you to drink it, you can totally skip drinking it, maybe water prefers that anyway.

www.islamawakened.com/quran if you want to give mental illness another try.
 
Wow that is extremely disrespectful, full of hate, but ignorance generate hate. But please let me share something with you.
Wow! Really, this is obviously not an academic forum, since when has the truth been disrespectful.
I suggest you have no idea what you are talking about. I think one can learn a great deal about Jesus from the scriptures.
I did research on Muhammed to discover more about him and I was not impressed despite what you claim, he was not averse to having someone's head chopped off for making up a song belittling him, so different to Jesus who was so much more gentle.
He did have mental health issues-
Early Muslim sources agree that Muhammad tried to commit suicide (or at least considered it). Indeed, Bukhari reports that Muhammad attempted suicide on multiple occasions.
According to Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rasul Allah (our earliest detailed biographical record on the life of Muhammad), the prophet of Islam attempted to kill himself because he believed he was possessed by an evil spirit. After having a nightmare about a spirit physically attacking him and forcing him to recite verses of the Qur’an, Muhammad decided that hurling himself off a cliff was the best option available: Guess what he then heard another voice telling him not to do it.
As having been a psychiatric nurse a number of writings tell me a lot about Muhammed, didn't need to be there.

It has been Muslims themselves who have told me they did not believe Jesus was put to death, it is not something I made up.

That they said (in boast), "We killed ChristJesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-— Qur'an, surah 4 (An-nisa) ayat 157–158 [3]

Despite your fine words about Jesus you must obviously think he lied because everything he and his disciple said in the scriptures is a complete contradiction to your claims, particularly the most important point that Christ died so we would have a second chance at eternal life. You can't have it both wys, either Jesus was telling the truth or he was lying. no middle ground here.
 

WonderingWorrier

Active Member

That they said (in boast), "We killed ChristJesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

You can't have it both wys, either Jesus was telling the truth or he was lying. no middle ground here.

You show a Quran verse that says "they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them".
I don't know how you can come to the conclusion that means they killed someone else who took the place of Jesus.

Perhaps it means the words of the Gospels just appear to you that is what happened.

So there can be a middle ground.
Disagreement due to misunderstanding words doesn't make the other person a liar.

Muhammed is not clearly a liar if you have misinterpreted the words of the Gospels and the Quran.
Jesus is not clearly a liar if you have misinterpreted the words of the Gospels and the Quran.



Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. John 8:43

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Corinthians 1:17

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness. 1 Corinthians 1:23

And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. Luke 9:23







 

ManSinha

Well-Known Member
@DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan @duncan @Link
Please explain Surah 3:85
It is, to me, similar to John 14:6

They are diametrically contradictory to one another -

Also

That exclusivity that is claimed is untenable today - IMHO

If you want to believe - that is your right - but to come out and make statements like "only truthful religion" and "ultimate choice" or something is leaving yourself open to pushback and a tear down of your arguments by Kafirs that do not believe as you do and neither think your book is the word of any god or Allah

In fact I have previously asked for proof that Allah exists - outside of sayings so in a book - and none has been forthcoming - so
 
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Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In fact I have previously asked for proof that Allah exists - outside of sayings so in a book - and none has been forthcoming - so

There is many proofs for God.

I will give you some:

1. Ontological:

The ontological argument which is sound can be phrased (going differently then perfection or greatness then Descartes or Anselm) in this way:

The highest type existence is the type that is necessary. (it's more exalted and great and part of perfection to be Necessary rather than not to be)

If we can conceive of the highest type existence, we would see it's necessary type existence as one of it's attributes or descriptions.

Therefore we would see automatically it exists since necessary by default cannot but exist (1). Necessary type by definition cannot not exist, and hence definitely exists (2).

You can deduce it's impossible to remember God as a concept, as a mere concept, but rather you are looking at the real thing when you do. This is probably why Al-Hayu (The living) has been emphasized the way it has been in Quran his life is the necessary type such that nothing exists beside it yet nothing exists without it and all life is found fully in God by which all things are given life (As-Samad).

Tawhid was never about the fact there happens to exist only one God by counting, it's about conceiving that nothing can exist with that being, not about just saying everything is below him, but that he is so great, his existence is comprehensively full to the extent it's necessary and all possible things can't be necessary but it, depending on it for existence.

A reverse of this:

If a possible being can exist independent of God, God would not be the Necessary being. The reason is because his life would not be comprehensive of that life and that life can exist independently. Therefore the word Samad implies everything depends on him as well.

As-Sammad means God is full and solid, like he is filled with all life, nothing life wise exists but is found in him in the positive absolute highest nature which is himself.

Evil is like negative numbers, it's God's word/ideas brought to life gone the opposite way from his light.

2. His vision

His vision is something that none of us can do without. Who we are exists solely there and is defined through his accurate measuring and judging us for who we truly are. Who we are and perception cannot be seperated, but our perception cannot be what defines us so something else is, which is God.

There are many reasons we aren't the ones defining through our vision of ourselves who we are but suffice to say, is that, our views change over time yet who people aren't changed by simply our judgment of them. Nothing can judge us and sees us exactly as we are but God's perfect vision.

3. The Source of the light.

We are in need of guidance in all moment, the light is from God and God is the light of all light, the glory and beauty is not separate from the source.

4. Morality is Eternal.

If a hypothetical Creator can create morality from nothing, it can make it whatever it pleases.
If this is the case, it would be largely arbitrary.
If it's arbitrary then torturing good souls forever can be deemed good.
The above line is impossible.
Therefore no hypothetical Creator can create morality from nothing.
A hypothetical creator can create everything evolution can create.
Therefore evolution cannot create morality from nothing.
Therefore morality is uncreated and eternal.
Morality requires vision and judgment.
This proves Eternal Vision of morality exists.
If morality exists eternally, all levels of it exist eternally.
The highest level can only be known fully by the highest possible being.
Therefore the Highest possible moral being exists.


These are four easy proofs. There are more.
 

ManSinha

Well-Known Member
If we can conceive of the highest type existence, we would see it's necessary type existence as one of it's attributes or descriptions.

the IF in there makes it a conditional - an opinion - that some would oppose - not any kind of definitive proof

His vision is something that none of us can do without
Secular Humanists like @Evangelicalhumanist and @It Aint Necessarily So would disagree - we can do just fine

We are in need of guidance in all moment, the light is from God and God is the light of all light, the glory and beauty is not separate from the source.
Assertion - no proof

f a hypothetical Creator can create morality from nothing, it can make it whatever it pleases.
If this is the case, it would be largely arbitrary.
If it's arbitrary then torturing good souls forever can be deemed good.
The above line is impossible
.
And yet Surah 3:85 would seem to state otherwise

You are providing opinions and assertions - good start - no proof forthcoming
Other people's opinions are just that - opinions - they do not constitute proof

You cannot provide proof - there is none - therefore to my way of thinking Allah is a made up entity to exercise control thru fear

You are welcome to have the last word - I am done posting in this thread :)
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan @duncan @Link
Please explain Surah 3:85
It is, to me, similar to John 14:6

They are diametrically contradictory to one another -

Also

That exclusivity that is claimed is untenable today - IMHO

If you want to believe - that is your right - but to come out and make statements like "only truthful religion" and "ultimate choice" or something is leaving yourself open to pushback and a tear down of your arguments by Kafirs that do not believe as you do and neither think your book is the word of any god or Allah

In fact I have previously asked for proof that Allah exists - outside of sayings so in a book - and none has been forthcoming - so

God favors humanity not directly but through those he favors (the religion to humanity) upon (1:7).

Jesus like John like Moses like Abraham are all the path to God that God chosen and establishes. The straight path is the path of God (end of Surah 42) but also the path of those who he favored (the chosen ones), those who he favored the religion to humanity upon and by which all gain of guidance through them.

Quran established Mohammad and his family (42:23, 25:57) as the path to himself. Mohammad (s) and his family (a) faced all sorts of hardship for God establishing their authority.

Now why is God's wrath upon those who turn away from the family of the reminder of their time?

It's because they are the means to him and because they are exalted and the names of God like Samuel (which means name of God) by which God is to be approached.

And it's because God suffices as a Guide and helper, and who relies on other then his guidance and seeks other then his help, is choosing misguidance over guidance, and is setting themselves to self destruction.

Not only that, but those who oppose God's path and don't submit to his signs and revelations and those chosen servants of his, misguide others.

And that, and God guides to the truth and no one is worthier then being followed than God.

And that, and there are misleading ways, and it's upon God to guide the way and if he wished he would've guided us all together, but it's his trial.

Lovers who love the Creator's balanced nature of Compassion and Wrath, knowing he is the most compassionate in place of compassion and pardon, and the most severe in retribution in the place of vengeance and hatred. The Quran is a very easy read.

But if you choose to love evil people over God, that's your choice.

That and God doesn't want us being enslaved to our low desires or other misguiding humans over his guidance and God guides through his rope and helps in ways we don't perceive and in ways we do perceive.

To be ungrateful towards his favor of guidance to the extent of opposing it when it's the only solution for the mess we made on earth, then, yes, all the oppressed and believers, God will avenge them and the full wrath be upon those who cling to their caprice, and oppose the guidance of God and titles themselves in all their caprice seeking ways as people who set the earth aright. Indeed they are the the evil ones, the havoc and chaotic destroyers of the peace and good in the world, but they don't perceive.

Who clings to misguidance through envy towards the pure word of God brought to life the blessed tree does so as their own peril and does despite God reaching out to them and warning them to not being envious and hostile toward God and his lovers.
 
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