Proof Of The Power Of The Tao!!!

[Scarlett Wampus]

Doing without desiring...I guess that's pretty much one of the central principles of Taoism! And TU, I think its important to point out there is still practice without desire even if calling it that, or taking pride in it, fall away. I'm getting some thoughts on this...

In the Tao Te Ching, Lao Tzu often warns against assuming something is easy. IMO living by Wu Wei is just such a thing that should not be assumed is easy. Why? Because its hard to believe it'll work, we tend to try just about everything except Wu Wei, and it takes considerable time to master it. The elderly sage and the young child are one, but there is difficulty inbetween

One 'elderly sage' I know gave me some advice a few months ago. I was worried because I was losing my zealot like fierceness. He commented on this by saying I was more considerate and at peace than I was previously, and this didn't seem so terrible from his perspective. He described a period of several years in his late thirties where he felt indifferent to people, himself, and just about everything. This to him was apathy in a negative sense, but later it eventually gave way to spontaneity and joy. He began to acheive a great deal of things for the love of following Tao rather than through ambition. Also, and this really stuck with me, he said that the great majority of people turn away from Taoism in some way when they reach that period of apathy. He said it was tough to drop ego, and even tougher not to pick it up again, but that this was actually the easiest way to live even if it doesn't seem so at the time, in fact can seem like a very bad thing to be happening!

I see this reflected in chapter Sixty-Three and Sixty-Four of TTC.

63

...

And so he says: do things wu-wei, by doing nothing
Achieve without trying to achieve anything -
Savour the taste of what you cannot taste

Make a small thing great, and the few into many -
Take on the largest things when they're still small,
Start the hardest things while they're still easy.

It's always the person who thinks things are easy
that finds them the hardest in the end.

The way the sage sees it: everything's potentially tricky,
so he never ends up out of his depth.

64

When everything is peaceful, don't forget the danger;
When things are safe, don't lose your edge -
A brittle thing can break
easily
And a small thing fragment.

So 'act before it happens'.
'order things before chaos breaks out'.

A great tree which takes a crowd to span its base
Started from being a tiny seed;
And a tower nine sections high began in the ground.

A journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step.

To act as if you know it all is catastrophic:
and if you try to control it
you will stare into your empty hand.

 

[ChrisP]

One 'elderly sage' I know gave me some advice a few months ago. I was worried because I was losing my zealot like fierceness. He commented on this by saying I was more considerate and at peace than I was previously, and this didn't seem so terrible from his perspective. He described a period of several years in his late thirties where he felt indifferent to people, himself, and just about everything. This to him was apathy in a negative sense, but later it eventually gave way to spontaneity and joy. He began to acheive a great deal of things for the love of following Tao rather than through ambition. Also, and this really stuck with me, he said that the great majority of people turn away from Taoism in some way when they reach that period of apathy. He said it was tough to drop ego, and even tougher not to pick it up again, but that this was actually the easiest way to live even if it doesn't seem so at the time, in fact can seem like a very bad thing to be happening!

Thanks. I'm so glad you shared that.

 

[the_Unknown]

I'll actually reply to some specific people here. Usually I just type whatever pops into my head and it's not meant to any specific person.
Master Vigil>

Preaching to a choir?

Not really, just placing some footnotes for the begining of the Tao Te Ching.

Personally, I prefer not to quote specific sources because it's not the words themselves, it's the meaning behind them.

Non-existant terms?

The point is that 'Taoism' is a religon based off of Taoist writings which is not something Lao Tzu intended.

As far as Zen goes, that's not in there either.

My choice of words run more along the lines of Zen than Philosphical Taoism?

Uh oh, better not report me to the Tao Association or I might have my Philosophical Taoist license suspended.

I mean, I hate to inform you but Chang Tzu uses different words than Lao Tzu -and even Lao Tzu uses different word choices depending on the translation.

Personally, I vaguely know of what 'Zen' is and I don't study taoism or spend time trying to sound like an official taoist or whatever.

This is all pretty trivial since the Tao obviously encompases all.

You take no pride in any Taoist Masters. Why would I say such a thing?

Not specific to you in particular, but 'you' as in a general person. It's more of a rehtorical question posed to the reader.

Look at history and you will see many people trying to use magic or some special technique to achieve their desires. People try to use the Tao for the same thing.

For example, people who lift weights and people who try to 'harness chi'. They are practicing at something.... this kind of intersects with my post to scarlett wampus and wu wei so let's continue with him below.
=================================================

Scarlett Wampus>

True wu wei is acting without desire.

If you practice to further develop something, then it is your desire that is leading you.

To act without desire is to not try to accomplish anything.

The Tao is spontaneous, ready to change and adapt at any moment.

So the definition of practice, either as tasks you do all the time, or as something you do to develop and further yourself is not wu wei. I don't know what definition of practice you associate with the word.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
A person who truly uses wu wei appears to both succeed and fail, as those are both subjective things.

It's like luck, you decide whether you have good luck or bad luck based on your desires and expectations. If you have no desires or expectations then luck doesn't exist - only circumstance. If you do not strive for something, then you cannot fail and you cannot recieve rewards. You are above it.

Wu wei is about transcendence.

You can keep chasing after things or you can step out of the circle.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

True apathy is a natural state. Just like everything in life, you're only miserable with it if you desire it to be something it is not.

The Tao is not a magical breathing technique that is going to make you invincible. The Tao is indifferent to who you are personally. To 'go with the flow' you become indifferent to the Tao (all of the details of life).

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Think of it this way...

You are in a game of soccer. The ball gets passed to you. You struggle and run to the other side of the field. You barely manage to outwit and outplay the other team while not losing the ball. Exhausted, you make it to the other side cursing the slippery grass between your feet and the bright sun in your eyes. You take a shot at the goal and tense up with expectation. The ball inches passed the goalies' fintertips. Your supporters in the crowd cheer, your opponents boo you. Your teammates rush to embrace you while the coach of the other team is screaming at the ref and his players. Then it all dies down, and you have to get ready for the game to continue.

This is the same thing if you choose to play the game of life.

-You put on a uniform made from your ideas and personality.
-Then you chase after a ball - this is what you choose to value.
-Try to score- aka 'accomplish a goal' that you call your own.
-Meanwhile, opponents appear who are also chasing after their own values and trying to meet their own goals.
-You begin to curse natural circumstances because they don't align with your desires.
-The crowd is all of the bystanders that get caught up in pointless dramas.

If you don't play the game of life then...

-You don't dress to act out roles because you have don't specific ideas or a personality.
-You don't chase after values because you have none.
-You don't try to score because you realize there is no goal to life.
-Opponents don't exist because they have nothing to oppose.
-You enjoy natural circumstances because you have no desire for it to be different.
-You're never in the crowd because you don't get caught up in pointless dramas.

These are the hallmarks of any true taoist.
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The Tao is not difficult, you make it difficult by clinging to desires.

To accept the Tao, all you must do is sacrifice yourself on a godless altar where there is neither hope nor fear.

It's not who you truly are anyways - just a manifestation that you chose to limit yourself as.

 

[messianicmystic]

Since we are kind of on the topic of "chi", can someone please explain to me, in as much depth as possible, what "chi" is? I've read that it is similar to the concept of "nefesh" as presented in the Tanakh and later Jewish tradition.

 

[the_Unknown]

Noooooooooo....... don't hijack this into a chi thing

I'm pretty sure just about everyone here can go on and on about chi forever...
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Basically it's a form of internal energy, get a book on amazon.com or find a teacher if you want depth.

 

[Master Vigil]

I'll actually reply to some specific people here. Usually I just type whatever pops into my head and it's not meant to any specific person.

Thank you.

Master Vigil>

Preaching to a choir?

Not really, just placing some footnotes for the begining of the Tao Te Ching.

Personally, I prefer not to quote specific sources because it's not the words themselves, it's the meaning behind them.

I'm not sure you understand what I meant. I've read the Tao Te Ching, I own over 10 different translations. I don't need you to tell me what it says. I agree with what it says, and with what you were saying. So you were preaching to the choir.

Non-existant terms?

The point is that 'Taoism' is a religon based off of Taoist writings which is not something Lao Tzu intended.

As far as Zen goes, that's not in there either.

And I don't follow religious Taoism, so again I think your point is moot. As far as zen goes, of course it's not in there. It wasn't developed until bodhidharma traveled to china long after Lao Tzu wrote the Tao Te Ching. Again, not in any way relevant to my point.

My choice of words run more along the lines of Zen than Philosphical Taoism?

Uh oh, better not report me to the Tao Association or I might have my Philosophical Taoist license suspended.

You clearly misunderstood what I said.

I mean, I hate to inform you but Chang Tzu uses different words than Lao Tzu -and even Lao Tzu uses different word choices depending on the translation.

No, really? No wonder all of my versions say different things. I'm so glad you enlightened me.:banghead3

Personally, I vaguely know of what 'Zen' is and I don't study taoism or spend time trying to sound like an official taoist or whatever.

This is clear. That is why I keep telling you to read up on Dogen Zenji. I would also suggest reading up on Bodhidharma as well, and check out the lotus sutra while you're at it.

This is all pretty trivial since the Tao obviously encompases all.

Yes, the Tao encompasses all the myriad things. What a better way to know the encompassment then by knowing more of the myriad things?

You take no pride in any Taoist Masters. Why would I say such a thing?

Not specific to you in particular, but 'you' as in a general person. It's more of a rehtorical question posed to the reader.

Look at history and you will see many people trying to use magic or some special technique to achieve their desires. People try to use the Tao for the same thing.

Perhaps this is just because you are fairly new here, and may not know me very well. But I am a philosophical Taoist. I'm not sure if you know the difference between philosophical and religious Taoism. But perhaps some study will help you understand why you again are preaching to the choir.

For example, people who lift weights and people who try to 'harness chi'. They are practicing at something.... this kind of intersects with my post to scarlett wampus and wu wei so let's continue with him below.

And perhaps you will someday understand that not all practice is based on desire.

 

[ChrisP]

OMg... are we actually having a HEATED DEBATE in a taoist thread! And I thought this day would never come... Guess Buttons* gets paid out.

 

[the_Unknown]

Lol, this is funny... i'm so bored so I'm going to reply to this...
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Thank you.

I'm not sure you understand what I meant. I've read the Tao Te Ching, I own over 10 different translations. I don't need you to tell me what it says. I agree with what it says, and with what you were saying. So you were preaching to the choir.

I know in your world everything is meant for you, but in forums where I post it's generally for the public.

Otherwise, I probably would have just pmed you.

I believe it's impossible to teach someone the Tao.

I'm not trying to teach anyone, especially not you - I'd leave that to your cats. MEEEEEOOOOOOOW ! lol

And I don't follow religious Taoism, so again I think your point is moot. As far as zen goes, of course it's not in there. It wasn't developed until bodhidharma traveled to china long after Lao Tzu wrote the Tao Te Ching. Again, not in any way relevant to my point.

Once again, it's not all about you... yadda yadda yadda

You clearly misunderstood what I said.

No, really? No wonder all of my versions say different things. I'm so glad you enlightened me.:banghead3

LoL, well plz feel free to inform what your point was cuz I still don't get it.

This is clear. That is why I keep telling you to read up on Dogen Zenji. I would also suggest reading up on Bodhidharma as well, and check out the lotus sutra while you're at it.

See, this is what I don't get. Why do you feel it's important to bring up zen over and over again? I mean I could understand if this was the Zen section or something like that.

Yes, you can see the Tao in many things, but simply saying, "you should study so and so's zen" just makes it out like you're trying to sound like an authority on eastern philosophy. aka Wrapping but no gift, form without substance, etc, etc.

Yes, the Tao encompasses all the myriad things. What a better way to know the encompassment then by knowing more of the myriad things?

One need not study
every grain of sand
to know
the sandbox
is full.

Perhaps this is just because you are fairly new here, and may not know me very well. But I am a philosophical Taoist. I'm not sure if you know the difference between philosophical and religious Taoism. But perhaps some study will help you understand why you again are preaching to the choir.

Thank you for clearning that up. Now that you have proclaimed yourself a philosophical taoist to me, the world has become lucid.

Too bad Lao Tzu isn't alive today. He would have been so proud. I bet he would have given you a medal made from his sacred water buffalo's droppings!

And perhaps you will someday understand that not all practice is based on desire.

Perhaps...

But then again, perhaps you being the behumbled and desireless man that you are, you could shed some light on the desireless practice of picking apart everything I type to say I should study zen and refer to you as a 'philosophical taoist'.

I mean, you would think a 'philosophical taoist' would have more to say then "Go study Zen". Like I don't know... maybe something... PHILOSOPHICAL.... or even... perhaps... TAOIST?

 

[Master Vigil]

My point is only this... I constantly bring up zen because you constantly post things that follow more from a zen perspective than a Taoist one. Why is that so hard to understand? I'm not going to debate you over this, it is absolutely pointless. You simply have yet to discover the essence of humility in the Taoism that you so long to understand.

Am I an authority? No of course not. But at least I don't post things that make it seem like I am, like some people.

 

[the_Unknown]

Lol, no need to debate... people debate themselves...!
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My point is only this... I constantly bring up zen because you constantly post things that follow more from a zen perspective than a Taoist one.

Well, that's because you've been trained to label certain parts of the Tao as 'Zen'.

Like you said, Zen didn't exist back in Lao Tzu's time...

If we were living back then, what would you say my statments were?

You'd probably just make up some other word to detract from the fact that not everything and everyone seems to follow your narrow perspective.

You seem to have this chip on your shoulder to prove you are this eastern guru or something. Like you invested a ton of money and time into trying to grasp things like Zen and Tao and fell short. Otherwise, why would you bring up something so trivial repeatedly?

Why is that so hard to understand? I'm not going to debate you over this, it is absolutely pointless. You simply have yet to discover the essence of humility in the Taoism that you so long to understand.

Am I an authority? No of course not. But at least I don't post things that make it seem like I am, like some people.

Yes, like those people who call themselves 'Master' and then judge other people's philosophies based on their own shallow expertise.

You remind me of the classic western wannabe who has all of this asian stuff in their house. All you need to do now is open up another McDojo and get a bunch of kids gullible enough to call you 'master'. Maybe you could try getting an asian girlfriend, that might help too. Then you can go and write a book on how you took an ancient eastern art and 'advanced' it in your life time with all of your supposed 'insight'. Quick! Get a website up and start charging for classes! lol

 

[the_Unknown]

While this is somewhat true, it is helpful to understand the true nature of the sand, and the nature of the sandbox. Only by undertanding the nature of the sandbox and its contents, can one ever begin to understand its fullness. Once that fullness is understood, then one may begin the appreciate what it takes to let the sand slide effortlessly through ones fingers.

The concept of not getting caught up in the myriad details is the true power of the Tao.

For example, look at Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do.

((NOTE: I'm not saying Bruce Lee is a master taoist and I don't usually like bringing up specific people and things because it triggers a host of random facts inside a person's mind...))

Okay so Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do, the idea that no style should be your fighting style. He went and took elements of all sorts of fighting styles like kung fu, boxing, judo, and fencing and applied it in something of an amalgum. This allowed him to be more flexible in his responses.

Another example...

If you truly understand the principles behind how the human body works, then you can understand how a car works, or a company, or a country, or an atom.

Just like how people have a blood stream, cars have oil, computers have transistors, companies have profits, countries have freeways and roads, and atoms have electrons.

Now am I saying that you would want a mechanic or business man to be your surgeon - no.

Anyone who is narrow minded enough to limit themselves to one field will obviously fumble in others.

The essence of being able to adapt and perform effectively is there though - it just takes the true taoist perspective to tap it.

Men like Leonardo Da Vinci are proof that this is true!
-------------------------------------------------
So what I meant was simply this: Simplify the universe to a sandbox and all things to grains of sand. If you were then to understand one grain of sand, then you would understand every grain of sand there-in.

From the micro to the macro, the universe is a series of infinite fractals.

 

[Master Vigil]

Lol, no need to debate... people debate themselves...!
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Well, that's because you've been trained to label certain parts of the Tao as 'Zen'.

Wow, are you thick headed. And you have been trained to label parts of the Tao as "you".

Like you said, Zen didn't exist back in Lao Tzu's time...

Precisely.

If we were living back then, what would you say my statments were?

A hypothetical question is not needed for this discussion. We are not living back then, we are living in a time where Taoism and Zen both exist simultaneously. I just think you may enjoy reading up on it. It has nothing to do with me.

You'd probably just make up some other word to detract from the fact that not everything and everyone seems to follow your narrow perspective.

If you think that believing you would enjoy reading Dogen Zenji, and comparing it to the Tao Te Ching is a narrow perspective, then by all means.

You seem to have this chip on your shoulder to prove you are this eastern guru or something. Like you invested a ton of money and time into trying to grasp things like Zen and Tao and fell short. Otherwise, why would you bring up something so trivial repeatedly?

And you can judge me how? I can say right back at you that you have this chip on your shoulder that you need to prove that you know everything about Tao that you won't even consider reading up on a topic that you are very familiar with (even without studying it). And that is Zen buddhism. Please, leave the ad hominems at the door.

Yes, like those people who call themselves 'Master' and then judge other people's philosophies based on their own shallow expertise.

I am a Master Vigil, not a Master Taoist. Nor do I claim to be one. Perhaps if you would come out of your own little world and do some research, you might understand that.

You remind me of the classic western wannabe who has all of this asian stuff in their house. All you need to do now is open up another McDojo and get a bunch of kids gullible enough to call you 'master'. Maybe you could try getting an asian girlfriend, that might help too. Then you can go and write a book on how you took an ancient eastern art and 'advanced' it in your life time with all of your supposed 'insight'. Quick! Get a website up and start charging for classes! lol

And this is due to what? How many of those "classic western wannabe's" do you know? Or are "you" just trying to sound like an authority on the subject? If that is truely what I remind you of, than you'd better stop relying on that. Because you certainly missed it.


I absolutely can't believe I'm arguing with you. Again, Lao Tzu says the ocean is the king of all streams because it lies lower then they. Perhaps you should take his advice. As for this argument, I'm done. Enjoy yourself, and may peace and joy fill your every being.

 

[Master Vigil]

I want to say something before I leave this thread. Unknown. You do have a wonderful understanding of Tao. I only say to study zen because I want you to learn more, and have an even more wonderful understanding of Tao. But while that may be true, it may not be as well. For yes, words are just symbols that inaccurately describe what it tries to describe. The stream does not speak about why it flows, nor does it use terms to describe it's flowing. It just flows.

I understand that perhaps you may not be the most personable person on the forums, but your posts are always full of wonderful points. I feel that it is a wonderful bridge between Taoism and Zen bringing the Confucian parts of zen to the back burner, and getting to the heart of Tao. I tell you this not as a master, or an authority. But one who has fervently "studied" Tao for over 10 years.

Please, it is unnecessary for us to squabble over what we think of each other. It is absolutely pointless. Let us embrace P'u and leave these preconcieved notions of each other where they belong. Nowhere.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

The Tao is not difficult, you make it difficult by clinging to desires.

This is about as clear a statement as can be made. But oh TU, I find it difficult!

 

[the_Unknown]

This is about as clear a statement as can be made. But oh TU, I find it difficult!

You find what you place for yourself to find.

If you dont want it to be difficult, all you must do is sincerely decide for it not to be so.

When you look at life, most of everything is just excess crap you can do without.

It's like mud on your soul - you have to clean that crud off so who you are can shine through.

 

[the_Unknown]

This is about as clear a statement as can be made. But oh TU, I find it difficult!

Hey you know you have this quote from the Dali Lama on your sig.

I mean he gets the simplicity of life, why can't you? Obviously you thought it was worth while enough to throw into your sig.

Why not actually take that piece of wisdom and apply it instead of using it as a hood ornament?

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

You find what you place for yourself to find.

If you dont want it to be difficult, all you must do is sincerely decide for it not to be so.

When you look at life, most of everything is just excess crap you can do without.

It's like mud on your soul - you have to clean that crud off so who you are can shine through.

TU it takes work! I know you don't like talk like that. Judging from what you've said in the past I suspect its because you feel it is a deferral, or a denial, of what is important. All I can say is that, for me, the truth of the matter is that these things take practice. For every careless step into the quagmire it takes twice the effort to carefully step out of it.

Regarding the Dalai Lama quote yes it is pretentious as an ornament. I find it a useful reminder though. It has a practical use as well as a decorative one.

 

[the_Unknown]

TU it takes work! I know you don't like talk like that. Judging from what you've said in the past I suspect its because you feel it is a deferral, or a denial, of what is important. All I can say is that, for me, the truth of the matter is that these things take practice. For every careless step into the quagmire it takes twice the effort to carefully step out of it.

I'm not afraid of hard work, in fact for many years i used to enjoy it. I used to work 14 hour days for years and hardly ever get sleep.

Then one day I took a step back and asked myself, is this really worth it?

Is working harder really better than working smarter?

Soon, I saw that most of the difficulties were things i created.

They were rooted in objects of pride and the desire to indulge in conflict and labor so that I could feel a sense accomplishment and satisfaction.

How foolish this is if you can feel satisfied without pushing yourself over and over.

Regarding the Dalai Lama quote yes it is pretentious as an ornament. I find it a useful reminder though. It has a practical use as well as a decorative one.

What I meant by your quote being an ornament is the obvious conflict from your quote and your personal attitude.

I mean here you thought it was sooo insightful, or at least from a person of note so you put it on your sig. Yet, you sit here and say how difficult religion and philosophy is and how you have to be careful etc etc.

Being kind is hard?

It's a quagmire where you have watch ever step?

You have to be careful with your kindness?

It's obviously a ludicrous comparison and you skirt around it like a blind man.

You're making a choice to delude yourself here s_w.

And what for anyways?

A host of bad habits and an upbringing that tells you that you have to work hard and suffer?


Think about it, if suffering and hard work truly solved all the world's problems, then they would have ended when Jesus was put on the cross.

But no, here you are... just like so many other people... still suffering and still working hard and searching for a complicated solution...

 

[the_Unknown]

By the way, think of this.

Working hard in most societies today is really just a construct from rich people so that you spend your life working for them and they reap all the benefits.

In fact, rich people are so smart, they practically force you to specialize in something to be the most benefit to them and least benefit to you.

College students spend tons of money just to get a degree, or earn the approval to be a worker. Like a dog chasing after a bone.

So wealthy people not only manage to charge you money to train you, they also indebt you to years and years of service to pay back loans.

They want people to just be replaceable gears in the great machine that makes them prosperous.

This is only possible because true wealthy people use aspects of the Tao to get rich. They are behind the scenes while everyone else works.

Why do you think rich people are out yacht racing while chinese children are slaving away in sweat shops?

Who's working harder here?
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You just have to decide your not the slave of these ridiculous concepts.

It's not harder work, but smarter work....

And the smartest work is already done by other people.

So where does that leave you?

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

TU I wish you lived near me. You remind me of a friend who would critisise everything I did and said, a good counterbalance to my enthusiasm and recklessness. Like him you really appear to have my wellbeing in mind. Since he joined the army I have missed him much. Anyway...

By the way, think of this.

Working hard in most societies today is really just a construct from rich people so that you spend your life working for them and they reap all the benefits.

In fact, rich people are so smart, they practically force you to specialize in something to be the most benefit to them and least benefit to you.

College students spend tons of money just to get a degree, or earn the approval to be a worker. Like a dog chasing after a bone.

So wealthy people not only manage to charge you money to train you, they also indebt you to years and years of service to pay back loans.

They want people to just be replaceable gears in the great machine that makes them prosperous.

This is only possible because true wealthy people use aspects of the Tao to get rich. They are behind the scenes while everyone else works.

Why do you think rich people are out yacht racing while chinese children are slaving away in sweat shops?

Who's working harder here?
----------------------------------------------

You just have to decide your not the slave of these ridiculous concepts.

It's not harder work, but smarter work....

And the smartest work is already done by other people.

So where does that leave you?

I agree with all of this emphatically, jumping up and down kind of emphatically, except that part about wealthy people using the Tao to get rich. Depends on what is meant by 'wealthy' of course, but its clear from the Tao Te Ching that the mindlessly destructive master & slave society we live in is not the way of the Tao. Just reading any decent social psychology book on the art of persuasion will draw attention to the kinds of clever tools we all use and are used by to maintain the perverse 'progress' of our civilisation. As much as anything else the Tao Te Ching is about how to slip the shackles of obedience and drop the weapons of oppression, and the rich are the most insidious abusers of shackles and weapons. Nowhere in the Tao Te Ching is Wu Wei related to anything concerning letting others do your work for you and sleight-of-mind ways used to get them to do it. However, there is much about working without attachment and giving to others as a natural course of action. Really, the Way and its Power is fundamentally different to the seemingly reasonable rules and regulations that govern our polite society. The Tao is uncompromisingly unreasonable, and ultimately because Tao closer to us than we are to ourselves it cannot be beaten, only temporarily delayed.

How foolish this is if you can feel satisfied without pushing yourself over and over.
...
I mean here you thought it was sooo insightful, or at least from a person of note so you put it on your sig. Yet, you sit here and say how difficult religion and philosophy is and how you have to be careful etc etc.
...
You're making a choice to delude yourself here s_w.

And what for anyways?

A host of bad habits and an upbringing that tells you that you have to work hard and suffer?

I would be deliberately deluding myself if I went about saying the simplicity of kindness was easy, because I've found this not to be the case. First of all there is the difficulty of facing what is not kind within oneself, rooting it out so that it can be clearly understood, and then transforming or at least limiting its influence. This requires hard work, its no small undertaking! Secondly kind intentions can be less than useless without due consideration over the consequences of actions. This requires being smart, no small undertaking either! Where 'kindness' is truly simple is that it is the natural wish of the mystic heart, the center of our true being. Imo all other intentions that have not realised this as their base will lead away from Tao, and ultimately this is much much harder on everyone including oneself.

I do not see things as I do because I was brought up to believe some working class spiel about hard work and suffering. Believe me, I've always tried to avoid such things whenever possible! I try to make things as simple as possible, but not simpler, and I try to make things as easy as possible, but not easier. Putting it another way: the only pain I can avoid is the pain from trying to avoid pain, and the only joy I can gain is the joy that comes from letting go if joy. Again, this is hard to live by, but much easier than hiding in a dream world where superficial satisfaction is clutched tightly as a security against something much more profound yet potentially disturbing. I'm certainly not suggesting that you do this, I've not noticed any such deceit from your posts, but what I am suggesting is that perhaps I've had the luck/misfortune to fall into some things that have put me in a position that is not familiar to you (yet!)