Proofs for God/Religion. Got a good one?

[muffin8or]

Having studied only a handful of religious proofs I know I shouldn't be reaching any conclusions. But from what I've seen it all seems to be unconvincing by the end. The cosmological argument argues everything had a cause except the first cause which seems inconsistent. The teleological argument doesn't take into account small changes over time making up complex things we see today. Rather it asserts that a complex thing simply must have a designer. The ontological argument defines God into existence but I don't know how it deals with conflicting claims about the nature of God. Arguments from morality and love etc. are all on shaky ground.

So the floor opens. Do you have any proofs for religion or God? If they are or are part of the arguments above don't hesitate to make your points. I'm all ears and would love more light to shine on these arguments I'm not looking for strictly logical proofs but rather persuasive proofs. Feel free to bring in why you believe in God or personal experiences.

Muffin8or

BTW I will argue against the big G

 

[Awoon]

You win:tribal:

 

[Gjallarhorn]

ARGUMENT FROM BLINDNESS (II)
(1) God is love.
(2) Love is blind.
(3) Stevie Wonder is blind.
(4) Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
(5) Therefore, God exists.

 

[Pegg]

Having studied only a handful of religious proofs I know I shouldn't be reaching any conclusions. But from what I've seen it all seems to be unconvincing by the end. The cosmological argument argues everything had a cause except the first cause which seems inconsistent. The teleological argument doesn't take into account small changes over time making up complex things we see today. Rather it asserts that a complex thing simply must have a designer. The ontological argument defines God into existence but I don't know how it deals with conflicting claims about the nature of God. Arguments from morality and love etc. are all on shaky ground.

So the floor opens. Do you have any proofs for religion or God? If they are or are part of the arguments above don't hesitate to make your points. I'm all ears and would love more light to shine on these arguments I'm not looking for strictly logical proofs but rather persuasive proofs. Feel free to bring in why you believe in God or personal experiences.

Muffin8or

BTW I will argue against the big G

for me, the most logical explanation for the existence of a creator, without any other proofs from a religious perspective, comes down to information.

where ever, and in whatever form, information exists, we know that an intelligence has constructed it because no message of any kind exists without an intelligent mind behind it. This is because messages are not matter, they can be transmitted in many different forms, but they do not exist as a physical entity. Rather they are an abstract entity, or a metaphysical thing.


And what exists inside all living things is information. The DNA is not mere chemicals reacting with each other...it is a 'code' which, when translated in the physical world, becomes matter...organized matter.

The dna inside us is like the information loaded into the tiniest computer chip. When that chip is activated, it amounts to readable, usable, working organized software such as an email system, or a word processor. The information on the chip didnt arrive there naturally....it was put there by an intelligent mind. It is exactly the same with the DNA inside of us....the information could only have come from an intelligent mind.

 

[PolyHedral]

This is because messages are not matter, they can be transmitted in many different forms, but they do not exist as a physical entity. [...] The DNA is not mere chemicals reacting with each other...

You appear to be contradicting yourself.

 

[Pegg]

You appear to be contradicting yourself.

some people say that DNA is not information....they will say it is only chemicals

But really, it is information which translates into a physical message. Just as we can put information in an email and print it onto paper or view it in binary form (codes made up of the numbers 1 and 0)...both are physical forms of the same information but the information existed independently of both the email system and the paper.

dna is like that. The information in the dna existed independently because information is not matter, it comes from intelligence.

 

[Mister Emu]

Feel free to bring in why you believe in God or personal experiences.

He's talked to me.

 

[muffin8or]

You win:tribal:

Why do you comment on everything with that tribal emoticon? I take it you're just trying to get your post count up. Tsk, tsk. First abuse of the system. Who knows what's next, abuse of the wife?

And what exists inside all living things is information. The DNA is not mere chemicals reacting with each other...it is a 'code' which, when translated in the physical world, becomes matter...organized matter

I suppose you don't think evolution occurs on any level. Because the random mutation of DNA leading to the addition of genetic information doesn't need any intelligent process. If this is your standpoint then proving evolution would point you away from God (seeing as this is your main reason) If this isn't your standpoint then explain the addition of information in DNA

ARGUMENT FROM BLINDNESS (II)
(1) God is love.
(2) Love is blind.
(3) Stevie Wonder is blind.
(4) Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
(5) Therefore, God exists.

I'm afraid this is as tight as some theist's logic gets...

He's talked to me.

You'll have to elaborate, dear. Here's me trying to include all reasons for believing in God and you just give me 4 words. What did he tell you? Things that won't prove he actually spoke to you most probably...

BTW I assume you aren't trolling because trolling isn't allowed

 

[Pegg]

I suppose you don't think evolution occurs on any level. Because the random mutation of DNA leading to the addition of genetic information doesn't need any intelligent process. If this is your standpoint then proving evolution would point you away from God (seeing as this is your main reason) If this isn't your standpoint then explain the addition of information in DNA

dna has the capability to reproduce itself...its an inbuilt mechanism. And when it does reproduce itself, it rearranges the information so that something slightly different is the result. Its like the keys on a piano...with the same keys arranged in a slightly different way, you can get a slightly different tune.

that is the evolution I believe in...its the evolution which produces 'variety' within any given species. Its why our species come in all sizes, all shapes and all colours.

 

[muffin8or]

Keys on a piano? You don't know much about genetics. Look up how DNA works. Are you talking about piano keys in terms of atoms, nucleotides, genes? If you're talking nucleotides then my DNA could be rearranged into that of a goat. If you're talking genes then that makes no sense. Why don't you think that when DNA replicates through meiosis or mitosis that a mistake can be made? That guanine becomes thymine. That that change can alter a physical aspect. And that change can be beneficial or not and as such be carried forward or not.

Give me a why not a what

 

[Pegg]

Keys on a piano? You don't know much about genetics. Look up how DNA works. Are you talking about piano keys in terms of atoms, nucleotides, genes? If you're talking nucleotides then my DNA could be rearranged into that of a goat. If you're talking genes then that makes no sense. Why don't you think that when DNA replicates through meiosis or mitosis that a mistake can be made? That guanine becomes thymine. That that change can alter a physical aspect. And that change can be beneficial or not and as such be carried forward or not.

Give me a why not a what

because that is not what happens in reality.

If a dog is pregnant, it reproduces only dogs. Cats always reproduce cats and people always reproduce people.

DNA is written in such a way that each species of animal is locked into remain that same species. yes the reproduction can lead to variances of appearance, but a dog will always be a dog and a cat will always be a cat. The DNA can create a very wide variety of cats and dogs, but the information will always translate into a cat or dog.

 

[Storm]

Trying to dis/prove God is a fool's game.

 

[Mister Emu]

Here's me trying to include all reasons for believing in God and you just give me 4 words.

You don't think direct experience is a reason for believing in God?

What did he tell you? Things that won't prove he actually spoke to you most probably...

Never claimed to have the gift of prophecy He, in less words, told me to hold love for even those committing atrocities and to practice peace towards all.

BTW I assume you aren't trolling because trolling isn't allowed

Good assumption

 

[Awoon]

Why do you comment on everything with that tribal emoticon? I take it you're just trying to get your post count up. Tsk, tsk. First abuse of the system. Who knows what's next, abuse of the wife?



I suppose you don't think evolution occurs on any level. Because the random mutation of DNA leading to the addition of genetic information doesn't need any intelligent process. If this is your standpoint then proving evolution would point you away from God (seeing as this is your main reason) If this isn't your standpoint then explain the addition of information in DNA



I'm afraid this is as tight as some theist's logic gets...



You'll have to elaborate, dear. Here's me trying to include all reasons for believing in God and you just give me 4 words. What did he tell you? Things that won't prove he actually spoke to you most probably...

BTW I assume you aren't trolling because trolling isn't allowed

I said you win

Dont take life so seriously, life only lasts temporarily.

 

[lunamoth]

No compelling reason to reject belief in God.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I believe in an impersonal and unholy God because of many reasons. My best one is; whether it was conscious or not, had powers or not, etc. there was something that made the universe become as it is today, and whatever that may be I shall call God for it is our impersonal creator... and I believe it is relevant to the Force and I believe in the Force for I seen it in action.

 

[Photonic]

Having studied only a handful of religious proofs I know I shouldn't be reaching any conclusions. But from what I've seen it all seems to be unconvincing by the end. The cosmological argument argues everything had a cause except the first cause which seems inconsistent. The teleological argument doesn't take into account small changes over time making up complex things we see today. Rather it asserts that a complex thing simply must have a designer. The ontological argument defines God into existence but I don't know how it deals with conflicting claims about the nature of God. Arguments from morality and love etc. are all on shaky ground.

So the floor opens. Do you have any proofs for religion or God? If they are or are part of the arguments above don't hesitate to make your points. I'm all ears and would love more light to shine on these arguments I'm not looking for strictly logical proofs but rather persuasive proofs. Feel free to bring in why you believe in God or personal experiences.

Muffin8or

BTW I will argue against the big G

I'm sold.

 

[Photonic]

because that is not what happens in reality.

If a dog is pregnant, it reproduces only dogs. Cats always reproduce cats and people always reproduce people.

DNA is written in such a way that each species of animal is locked into remain that same species. yes the reproduction can lead to variances of appearance, but a dog will always be a dog and a cat will always be a cat. The DNA can create a very wide variety of cats and dogs, but the information will always translate into a cat or dog.

Except we know for a fact that isn't true.

Or Dogs wouldn't be dogs, and would still be wolves.

 

[ChristineES]

I suppose I may be opening my self to ridicule by even posting here, but I will say what I have many, many times: I don't have any proof of God, that is why I have faith. Let me rephrase- I don't have any scientific evidence of God- which would be the only kind you'd interested in. If you need scientific proof, then you go find it. I don't need it.

 

[Pegg]

Except we know for a fact that isn't true.

Or Dogs wouldn't be dogs, and would still be wolves.

they are still dogs, just different varieties of the same kind of animal. DNA can do that.... is it evolution, sure... but will these animals become something completely different, no. A dog will always be a dog whether its large, small, fury, curly haired, straight haried, fuzzy haired, pokerdotted, striped, speckled, long eared, short eared, pointy nosed or flat nose.