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Proofs that God does not exist

Kilgore Trout

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Willamena said:
If the universe is created, isn't time also on the "created" side? Wouldn't then the argument that holds the creation to be dependent on time meaningless? Concepts of time, like "before" (prior) and "after" are also on the created side. Everything that exists is on the created side.

If we hold that the universe is not intelligently, wilfully and intentionally created, then yes, it is "obviously" created. (And if you hold that "others meant it that way" then again, looking at it from their perspective, what about it is not "obviously" created? It's so both ways.)
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If you, or anyone, has some sort of proof that our universe was created, then I'm more than willing to hear it.
 
Enoch07

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
atotalstranger said:
If you, or anyone, has some sort of proof that our universe was created, then I'm more than willing to hear it.
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Considering neither side has proof of how the universe came to be that is a rather silly demand. Now there is plenty of evidence pointing either way. But no proof has been discovered........yet.
 
Kilgore Trout

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Enoch07 said:
Considering neither side has proof of how the universe came to be that is a rather silly demand. Now there is plenty of evidence pointing either way. But no proof has been discovered........yet.
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Indeed - I wasn't the one claiming the universe was obviously created.
 
Willamena

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
atotalstranger said:
If you, or anyone, has some sort of proof that our universe was created, then I'm more than willing to hear it.
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"Proof" as in that evidence that convinces a person of the truth of a thing? Or "proof" as in a logical forumula that is dependent entirely upon its premises, which in turn are dependent upon definition, which in turn is dependent upon an understanding?
 
Kilgore Trout

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Willamena said:
"Proof" as in that evidence that convinces a person of the truth of a thing? Or "proof" as in a logical forumula that is dependent entirely upon its premises, which in turn are dependent upon definition, which in turn is dependent upon an understanding?
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"Proof" as in evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true.
 
TheKnight

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
atotalstranger said:
No, I'm saying that the universe is in no way "obviously" created. Anything that happened, or existed, prior to 10^-12 seconds into the big bang is purely speculative. We simply do not know whether the universe/other universes have simply always existed, in one state or another.
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You're right..I misread.

The appropriate response is:

Me: Logic. You cannot explain that there is existence without first explaining that at some point there must have been an initial existence. Something doesn't just come from nothing.

You:What reason is there to think that the universe/universes needed to be created?

Me: I didn't say that the universe needed to be created. I said that it exists and nothing that exists can exist unless it came from something else. The only exception to this rule is the axiomatic existence that is necessary for any existence.
 
TheKnight

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
Humanistheart said:
Meaning?
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"Where did X come from? It came from Y. Where did Y come from? It came from Z. Where did Z come from?"

At some point in that line of questioning, the questioner will have to accept that there is an existence at some point which has no beginning. It just is. That's what an axiom is. Something that is because it just is. For the Theist, that is God.
 
H

Humanistheart

Well-Known Member
TheKnight said:
"Where did X come from? It came from Y. Where did Y come from? It came from Z. Where did Z come from?"

At some point in that line of questioning, the questioner will have to accept that there is an existence at some point which has no beginning. It just is. That's what an axiom is. Something that is because it just is. For the Theist, that is God.
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I don't concur with your conclusion. For one thing I don't think that is the definition of an axiom, so much as your interpretation of it. But as you said, for the theist that is god, something for which there is no proof of, no reason to be, so how is it an axiom?
 
TheKnight

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
Humanistheart said:
I don't concur with your conclusion. For one thing I don't think that is the definition of an axiom, so much as your interpretation of it. But as you said, for the theist that is god, something for which there is no proof of, no reason to be, so how is it an axiom?
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Well, is proof necessary? I admit that there is no conclusive evidence for the existence of God. However, I do believe that there is enough for one to establish reasonable belief in God.
 
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