What is proving to be unique to you in this discussion is an ability to believe in an equivalence between sense and nonsense, rationality and irrationality, reason and unreason.
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Prop 8 sponsors seek to nullify same-sex marriages
- Thread starter Green Gaia
- Start date
What is proving to be unique to you in this discussion is an ability to believe in an equivalence between sense and nonsense, rationality and irrationality, reason and unreason.
Nonsense, Phil. Just because the NO crew posits the YES position irrational and unreasonable does not make it so.
Just because you cannot see how irrational and unreasonable the YES position is does not make it any less irrational and unreasonable. Rationality and reason are not determined by popular vote.
kiwimac
Brother Napalm of God's Love
Those who voted yes on prop 8 allowed their fears and prejudices to guide them. That those fears and prejudices are very real TO THEM no one denies but they are STILL fears and prejudices. What would have been the reaction, I wonder, had the opponents of interracial marriages been able to do something similar?
Gays marrying hurts absolutely no one, damages no rights, removes no protections.
Gays marrying hurts absolutely no one, damages no rights, removes no protections.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
Both.
wa:do
Umm... you said it yourself:
Which reasons to vote against same-sex marriage are valid, and how does the "gay reaction" to the vote prove this?
Apex
Somewhere Around Nothing
Their fears were that they gay community would begin to encroach upon religious rights. You and me might consider this either ridiculous or just an invalid concern. They do not think that way and the gay communities reaction to the vote by violently protesting, ruthlessly targeting individuals at both work and home, calls to boycott the state of Utah because of the Mormons, boycotts of Marriott hotels because the owner is Mormon (though never donated a single cent to Prop 8) and statements like "Tax this Cult" and "Burn their chapels to the ground and tax the ashes" and countless similar events have only increased these peoples fears that their rights are in real and present danger.
But it does make in unamerican doesn't it? America believes in equality and the freedom of religion.
Here we have people saying gays are less equal and their religious beliefs should be enforced upon all people of all religions.
This violates both equality and the freedom of religion.
When the country begins to enforce the religious beliefs of some onto the many by law, what will be the outcome?
I haven't heard of any religious rights being encroached upon so far. If you're talking about the various protests, they were a result of a "Yes" win, not a "No" win, weren't they? Even if that reaction had been foreseen, why would that have been a reason to vote "Yes"?
Hold up - "violently"? I haven't heard about any violent protests on this issue. If you know of some incident that I don't, please tell us about it; otherwise I'll assume you're just engaging in hyperbole.
And who's been targetting individuals at home? I've heard of isolated cases of businesses being boycotted and/or picketed, but I haven't heard of protests at people's homes. If it's happening, I agree it's unacceptable, but I haven't heard anything about that.
Perhaps, but it seems that if you've supported the LDS Church, you've at least indirectly supported Prop 8. While the LDS Church only declared a small amount of financial contributions to the Prop 8 campaign, their non-monetary contributions are now under investigation. I think that a boycott of Marriott would be heavy-handed, but there's at least a tenuous justification there.
My hyperbole meter is going off again, but I think that your argument still uses some wacky logic; it basically amounts to, "we're worried about our religious rights, so we'll provoke people to attack religious rights." Do the people who hold this view spend their free time poking bears with sticks to prevent bear attacks?
Just because you cannot see the gay crowd's response validated the YES crowd does not mean I am irrational or unreasonable. It's not about the vote results - it's about the gay crowd's response.
Depends on your definition of "hurts" "damages" and so on. The YES crowd very much feels hurt and damaged by gay marriage.
Right - it's a debate thread. The NO crowd is not debating. Their just asking questions, receiving answers, then saying "no no no!" like a three year old.
But I've validly used tradition as an example of the YES argument - not religion.
*kung fu chop!*
Either you've had your head in the sand and you have selective hearing.
Here's some framing of the argument for you: "we're worried about our religious rights...the gays say we have no need to worry...the gays lose...they attack our religious rights."
Really.
I brought up several points in response to your recent post that were a fair bit more than saying "no no no!" - you chose to ignore them.
No, I recognize that there are many rights; prominent among them are both the right to freedom of religion and the right to freedom of assembly. I seriously don't see how people exercising the latter infringes on the former.
But assuming you do, how has anyone's freedom to worship as they see fit been infringed by the protests that resulted from the vote?
I don't think anyone's religious rights have been attacked. There's been some isolated cases of nasty rhetoric, but that's not the same thing... and freedom of speech is a right as well.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Did the riots caused by the civil rights movement during the 60s validate segregationist views, Watchmen?
Smoke
Done here.
Right.
Mormons: Queers hate us. Let's conduct a bigoted campaign of disinformation and barefaced lies to take away their rights and dissolve their marriages.
Other Mormons: Yeah!
Queers: Mormon scum!
Mormons: See! We told you they hated us!
Everybody can see both sides, but most people here can see through the arguments of the pro-8 side. What's unique to you is the pretense that the concerns of both sides are equally valid.
Nonsense. Those statements were a reaction to the attacks on gay people by the Mormons. If they had not attacked, there would have been no reaction.
There's nothing unreasonable about boycotting Marriott, either, even though neither the corporation nor Bill Marriott himself donated to the Yes on 8 campaign. Bill Marriott is a practicing and tithing Mormon -- in fact, he's said to give well over and above his tithe to the church. Doing business with Marriott puts money in Monson's pocket, and helps support his church's fight against equal rights. I've always stayed at the Marriott when in Atlanta. I've been very happy with it, and never considered staying anywhere else. I'll never stay there again,though.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
You are, even though you don't see it.
Yes. Is that relevant? I didn't say you couldn't say what you're saying, just that you're going down the same path of those who voted "Yes".
And that's where you're wrong. People recognize that the "Yes" crowd has reasons like those you listed. They just also realze that those are stupid, ignorant, illegitimate reasons.
Because you're presenting illegitimate, stupid, ignorant reasons as if they are legitimate and reasonable.
Yes, the question "What legitimate reasons could someone have for voting "Yes" on Prop 8?" is unanswerable. The correct answer to it is "None".
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
Yes, they are. Just claiming that they aren't doesn't help. As has been explained to you many times now, their church is not in any danger, their children aren't either, "tradition" as they see it needs a kick in the butt sometimes (as in Slavery and civil rights), etc.
Your constant assertion that the reaction to the vote proved their fears justified is just plain stupid, and you need to stop saying it. As I said before, if I punched you in the nose, should I expect you not to get upset? It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. "Those gays all hate us, and are angry at us." "See, look at them showing their anger now." The part that's missing is the "...showing their anger, after we took away their rights."
You're an intelligent man, Watchmen. I know you can get this, and I don't know why you're being so difficult about it. That group denied homosexuals their rights. Of course they're ****** off at them now. If they had their rights, there would be no problem. You'd be a little upset too, if someone told you you couldn't marry your wife.