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Prop 8 Support Defense for those of us who are LDS or like-minded in moral values

deseretgov

Unofficial Ambassador
But I mean when it's correct. Your course of action is not the right thing to do, even by Christian standards. We're trying to show you that.

And we are trying to show you that our actions are right. That's what makes this point subjective.

Are you implying that same-sex marriage would affect that right in any way? Besides, your society is not exactly progressive, considering "progressive" would involve "progress" meaning allowing same-sex marriage.

Why does progress invole same-sex marriage to me that is a sign of a non-progressing society. Homosexual relations are a sin. God will punish any society that approves of them. Allowing homosexual marriage would bring the natural consiquences of the destruction of our society. The desctruction of society woudl be a violation of my right to a productive and progressive society.

What about it? You have it regardless of whether or not homosexuals get married. Does the general consumption of caffeine and alcohol affect your ability to raise your children with the idea that those two things are not good?

Yes, because society projects a contradictory image that those things are ok.

Althought I wil admit that I include dthe rasing children i my post as more of an extra point rather than a sticking point. I can see how it is p[artially related but it isn't that big of a deal.

No, they are equal. The problem is that you see it as one or the other. Allowing same-sex marriage doesn't affect your rights at all. You don't have to teach your kids that it's good. You don't have to get one yourself. Your church does not have marry people it doesn't want. All of your rights remain intact. All that changes is homosexuals gaining the rights they deserve.

Except that as I pointed out above the acceptance of homosexual marriage would bring punishment upon our society. That punishment would adversly affect me and thus violate my rights.

The troubles happening in todays world aren't just an accident. They are the result of the wickedness of the world.

How about a deal. We gather all those who want have a homosexual marriage in one place and all of those who want heterosexual marriages in another place. That way both can have what they want and the consiquences of either group wont adversely affect the other.
 

deseretgov

Unofficial Ambassador
fantôme profane;1330227 said:
Is this really the argument? Are you really trying to tell us that the only way that you can raise your children the way you want to is to deny other people their civil rights? Is that really the way you want to raise your children?


Please see my previous post.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Except that as I pointed out above the acceptance of homosexual marriage would bring punishment upon our society. That punishment would adversly affect me and thus violate my rights.

The troubles happening in todays world aren't just an accident. They are the result of the wickedness of the world.
So... you don't want same-sex marriage because your religious beliefs tell you that you'll receive divine punishment if it's legalized?

How is this any more of a valid basis for public policy than, for example, the belief that carbon emission limits are useless because Armageddon is going to happen in 2012?

How about a deal. We gather all those who want have a homosexual marriage in one place and all of those who want heterosexual marriages in another place. That way both can have what they want and the consiquences of either group wont adversely affect the other.
Yes, because mass displacement of whole populations doesn't have any negative consequences. :rolleyes:
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
And we are trying to show you that our actions are right. That's what makes this point subjective.

No, it's not really an opinion thing. You thinking your right doesn't mean it's right. There was a time when people were sure the Earth was flat. They were wrong. There was a time when black people were slaves and a more recent time when interracial marriage was banned. People were wrong in those cases, too. There is only one right thing to do, and that is to allow everyone equal rights. That you can't see that doesn't make your it a "tomayto, tomahto" thing.

Why does progress invole same-sex marriage to me that is a sign of a non-progressing society. Homosexual relations are a sin. God will punish any society that approves of them. Allowing homosexual marriage would bring the natural consiquences of the destruction of our society. The desctruction of society woudl be a violation of my right to a productive and progressive society.

Because progression would be moving on and not staying stagnant. "Keeping the traditional definition of marriage", as supporters of Prop 8 like to call it, isn't progress, it's staying the same.

As far as the rest of this, wow. I understand that you think that homosexual relations are a sin. However, you have to recognize a couple of things. One, we're not talking about a religious marriage before God. We're talking about a state contract. They are two completely different things. I am an atheist, and I'm married legally. Mine has nothing to do with God. Besides, many states already have civil unions for same-sex couples, including California which has domestic partnerships pretty much equal to marriages. I'd say that's approving of them. Also, Canada has same-sex marriages, and they're still going strong. No destruction there. Many societies in history have approved of homosexual relations, including many societies today.

So, society will not be destroyed if we allow same-sex marriages, which invalidates your objection to losing your rights.

Yes, because society projects a contradictory image that those things are ok.

Althought I wil admit that I include dthe rasing children i my post as more of an extra point rather than a sticking point. I can see how it is p[artially related but it isn't that big of a deal.

But you're still able to teach your kids that those things are unacceptable, right?

Except that as I pointed out above the acceptance of homosexual marriage would bring punishment upon our society. That punishment would adversly affect me and thus violate my rights.

The troubles happening in todays world aren't just an accident. They are the result of the wickedness of the world.

How about a deal. We gather all those who want have a homosexual marriage in one place and all of those who want heterosexual marriages in another place. That way both can have what they want and the consiquences of either group wont adversely affect the other.

And, as I pointed out, your fear of the destruction of society is extremely misguided. So, you would not be adversely affected. You realize that religious types like you used this exact same excuse for having slaves and not allowing interracial marriage, right? Well, those things changed, and we're still here, aren't we?

How about a deal? We don't segregate and everyone's happy and everyone gets to continue living because your God is not going to destroy everyone. Besides, as long as you personally don't approve of same-sex religious marriage, why would God take it out on you?
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
I think its actually funny...to suggest that if homosexuality is viewed by society as a naturally ocuring and an accpetable phenonenon....that we will then have to instruct or teach or lead children to be heterosexual..As if we dont currently have to teach our heterosexual children to WAIT till they are old enough and mature enough to become sexually active ..we have to warn our boys and girls about unwanted preganancies and STDs...good grief...Its arrogant as hell IMHO to suggest we have one ounce of control over or TEACH our children to have raging hormones and that we teach or boys to be girl crazy or are girls to be boy crazy..

My parents did not teach my heart to go pitter patter and my face to blush when I was in the presence of a boy I thought was cute..That is a physically naturally accouring phenomenon that I experienced/experience..There is no way on earth..My mother and father could have convinced my BODY that I was not a heterosexual..

Love

Dallas
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
... the acceptance of homosexual marriage would bring punishment upon our society. That punishment would adversly affect me and thus violate my rights.
Besides, as long as you personally don't approve of same-sex religious marriage, why would God take it out on you?
Great question!

deseretgov, if God-imposed punishment would adversely affect you and thus violate your rights, would it not be more ethical and courageous to protest the actions of your God?
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
God will punish any society that approves of them. Allowing homosexual marriage would bring the natural consiquences of the destruction of our society.

How do you think homsexual marriage will bring on the destruction of our society??..I mean litterally what do you think will happen?What?..Natural disasters?(as if we dont already have those)...I mean what do you think will happen?

Love

Dallas
 

Nanda

Polyanna
There's a lot of truth in what you said, but like I said above, a lot of "homosexual behavior" in other species is not sexual at all. It's called "projection." When it does occur, stressful and unnatural conditions can be the trigger. Remember the male penguins living in captivity together as mates? Homosexual activists were very fond of pointing to them as examples of natural behavior. Guess what happened when a new female was introduced?

Read up on Bonobos. They do it in the wild, and they do it to express affection and as a social interaction.
 

Nanda

Polyanna
Would you please stop with your facts!? They have no place in a discussion with RS. ;)

I'll just be happy if he doesn't ignore it completely, like he did with my scientific explanation for why a chicken's body continues to run around after its head has been cut off.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
How about a deal. We gather all those who want have a homosexual marriage in one place and all of those who want heterosexual marriages in another place. That way both can have what they want and the consiquences of either group wont adversely affect the other.
:sarcasticGood idea. We can build a big wall with barb wire fences and station guards with machine guns and dogs. You can have your theocracy and the others can be free.
 

Rolling_Stone

Well-Known Member
Read up on Bonobos. They do it in the wild, and they do it to express affection and as a social interaction.
Non sequitur and it is projecting. What you said comes from The National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality. There is disagreement.Besides, last time I checked human beings don't live in bonobo societies. Pedophilic behavior is also common in bonobos. Should that also be sanctioned in human society?
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Quote:
Originally Posted by deseretgov
How about a deal. We gather all those who want have a homosexual marriage in one place and all of those who want heterosexual marriages in another place. That way both can have what they want and the consiquences of either group wont adversely affect the other.

Because I don't want to segregate myself from that many wonderful and delightful people.And I would hope they would miss me too..

But maybe it would be a good idea..for all the heteros who feel so threatened by gays..to go live on an island by themselves with all their like kind..And any children born into your camp that are gay.. You can ship them over to us and we will adopt them...

Love

Dallas
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Non sequitur and it is projecting. What you said comes from The National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality. There is disagreement.Besides, last time I checked human beings don't live in bonobo societies. Pedophilic behavior is also common in bonobos. Should that also be sanctioned in human society?

Pedophilia is a person taking advantage of a weaker vulnerble and less powerful person...it is not a loving act.And has the potential for long lasting injuries to a child.

It can not be compared to two adults in a homesxual relationship that love each other and make each other feel happy and fullfilled.

Love

Dallas
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Non sequitur and it is projecting. What you said comes from The National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality. There is disagreement.Besides, last time I checked human beings don't live in bonobo societies.
Well, then read up on homo sapiens. You likely couldn't swing a cat in a crowded room without hitting several people who are homosexual, and as you argued, humanity is part of nature... remember?

Pedophilic behavior is also common in bonobos. Should that also be sanctioned in human society?
You're making the same mistake again: the natural world informs our judgements, but it doesn't dictate our morality.

You're also moving the goalposts. Your original argument here was that homosexuality was somehow contrary to "nature". The only one here trying to make moral inferences from other species is you.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Use your logic and instinct...

You have a child..they announce they are gay..(as an adult) they are in a relationship..they are happy and look forward to life..they are intelligent and productive and all around a good person. They care about others and are responsible.And so is their mate...

Now ..take another child...that grew up as a young child having an adult or adults(plural) commiting sexual acts on them..ongoingly throughout their childhood.

I just cant get it in my mind how those two can even be compared.

Love

Dallas
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Because that's our reason too.


What about my right to living in a productive, progressive, society? What about my right to raise my children the way I want?

Are your rights more important than mine?

I don't see anyone trying to take away your rights to those things. Do what you want, let me do what I want.

I have to ask though, in this productive, progressive society I assume there would be no gay people (since you seem to object to our existence). In your utopia, would you "do away" with people who didn't conform to your ideals?
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
I don't see anyone trying to take away your rights to those things. Do what you want, let me do what I want.

I have to ask though, in this productive, progressive society I assume there would be no gay people (since you seem to object to our existence). In your utopia, would you "do away" with people who didn't conform to your ideals?

Right..serioulsy..what would the hetero camp do with children born into their society that are gay DESPITE they experienced nothing but living with straights?Because they would be born..The "segregation" would be compromized in one generation.By their own offspring..I mean come on..Its by far that heteros give birth to gay people....What would they do with the percentage of thier children that were gay?

Love

Dallas
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
[QUOTE I assume there would be no gay people (since you seem to object to our existence). ][/QUOTE]

What Im saying is eventually their would be gay people..They would give birth to them.

Maybe they could be like Iran..and put them to death..NO that wouldnt work..The gay people would just go back in the closet in order to survive..

That sounds real Jesus like to me..Yeah! lets DO IT!

Love

Dallas
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Right..serioulsy..what would the hetero camp do with children born into their society that are gay DESPITE they experienced nothing but living with straights?Because they would be born..The "segregation" would be compromized in one generation.By their own offspring..I mean come on..Its by far that heteros give birth to gay people....What would they do with the percentage of thier children that were gay?
That's what the "slippery slope" they talk about is for. It'd sit above the wall between the two territories, and the straight people would place their gay babies at the top and let them slide down to the gay territory.

They'd make it extra slippery to stop gay people from climbing up and polluting the straight territory with their gay ideas.
 
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