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Proper penance.

StarryNightshade

Spiritually confused Jew
Premium Member
What do you feel is a proper penance for when one does something they aren't supposed to do? Whether it be saying something in anger, himsa actions, eating something one isn't supposed to eat, missing an important ritual/prayer, etc? What do you do as a penance (if anything)?

Said penances can be personal, from a guru, or scriptural.

What I have been told is to bathe, change the yajnopavita, and do a few rounds of japa. With any added prayers if one feels so inclined.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
What do you feel is a proper penance for when one does something they aren't supposed to do? Whether it be saying something in anger, himsa actions, eating something one isn't supposed to eat, missing an important ritual/prayer, etc? What do you do as a penance (if anything)?

Said penances can be personal, from a guru, or scriptural.

What I have been told is to bathe, change the yajnopavita, and do a few rounds of japa. With any added prayers if one feels so inclined.


My feeling is you have to do as much as is necessary until you feel you've atoned. If guilt is still there, then it isn't enough. But my version of Hinduism actually emphasizes penance so I'm not a good person to ask. Rolling around the temple on hard concrete or hot sand is 'normal' for us. So is kavadi.
 

Sw. Vandana Jyothi

Truth is One, many are the Names
Premium Member
IMO, the truly proper penance is to stop yourself from doing any and all of those things which make you feel dirty or wrong in the first place or for which you find yourself constantly apologizing--either to others, to yourself or to your God. Otherwise, isn't it a lot like the hypocrite who hops into the confessional, says the requisite number of "Hail Marys" or "Our Fathers" and then exits the church to resume his/her life of "sin"?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I will go with what Vinayaka says. If you pick up some book like 'Garuda Purana', then the process mentioned could make one mad. At one time, the penance for killing a cat was to get one made of Gold cat and donate it to a brahmin.
 
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Sw. Vandana Jyothi

Truth is One, many are the Names
Premium Member
I will go with what Vinayaka says. If you pick up some book like 'Garuda Purana', then the process mentioned could make one mad. At one time, the penance for killing a cat was to get make a Gold cat and donate it to a brahmin.

Riiiiight, Aup. That should square things up. :rolleyes:
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
As Swamini alluded to earlier, it's truly about permanently changing behaviour, reprogramming the subconscious. The doing of penance is just an aid for that goal, like the rehabilitation of a criminal is. If once the penance is complete, the behaviour isn't permanently altered, then there was no point, was there?

Now ... going a bit off topic, penance to make up for perceived errors in judgement isn't the only reason to do penance.
 

Sw. Vandana Jyothi

Truth is One, many are the Names
Premium Member
IMHO Vinayaka means Tapas, Austerities.

Tapas is the word which came also to my mind as relevant to this discussion, Aupji. I was reflecting on its meaning since this thread launched and realized for myself that it is not only the standalone word for the "fire of austerity," so to speak, but perhaps also could refer to the heat and fire kindled by what seems to be the very real "fight" which ensues when a sadhaka tries to improve him/herself. Ego has a perceived stake in its continued unreal existence--its thirst for enjoyments--which probably (that's a stupid waffling word, isn't it, but just in case) doesn't help to advance a soul toward its goal.

It's important to remember that it's not the enjoyments we're supposed to eradicate, but rather the attachment to them. But also, I have seen another "odd" behavior of egos. Sometimes, they seem to derive enjoyment from upset, anger, depression and the like. We had one girl at the ashram who just LOVED to stir things up by triggering and baiting the others until someone, she didn't care who, blew up in her face. That made her so happy, she just lapped it up--both the energy of anger, like it was some kind of fuel for her as well as taking glee in the fact that she succeeded in making someone "fall." God used her good for that purpose, she was very skilled. One of the Indian gurus in the West who shall remain nameless once said, "I don't have to do anything. I just put all the devotees in a room together and they end up polishing each other!"
 
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StarryNightshade

Spiritually confused Jew
Premium Member
Can you clarify what you mean by "penance?"

Well, any action, deed, or prayer/ritual which "makes up" for a misdeed or adharmic/himsa action that one had committed. Whether intentionally or not.

Let me give an example:

I'm living with my parents for the summer before I go back to school. Their house currently has a bit of a millipede infestation. On more than one occasion, I have been recruited to take care of some of them (aka, killing them). This is a place where I can't just say "no" directly.

Perhaps it doesn't really affect me, because I wouldn't willingly do such a thing on my own, but still.
 

StarryNightshade

Spiritually confused Jew
Premium Member
IMO, the truly proper penance is to stop yourself from doing any and all of those things which make you feel dirty or wrong in the first place or for which you find yourself constantly apologizing--either to others, to yourself or to your God. Otherwise, isn't it a lot like the hypocrite who hops into the confessional, says the requisite number of "Hail Marys" or "Our Fathers" and then exits the church to resume his/her life of "sin"?

I essentially agree.

For the record, I didn't mean people who willingly and consistently do things and try to find a "gat out of jail free card", but when something is done via our ego or human folly and one feels the guilt that comes with it.
 

Sw. Vandana Jyothi

Truth is One, many are the Names
Premium Member
I essentially agree.

For the record, I didn't mean people who willingly and consistently do things and try to find a "gat out of jail free card", but when something is done via our ego or human folly and one feels the guilt that comes with it.

Ahh, and your example of the "millipede" dilemma also clarifies the record. But--and I may be perceived here as a hard-nosed purist (or something else!!) with this comment--but IMO, neither friend, family nor foe has the right to ask us to undertake an adharmic action. And we shouldn't give it to them, either. After all, it won't be they who reap the karmic consequences. This is where viveka comes to the rescue. A lovingly clever discriminating dharmic solution can surely be found if one seeks it. Dharma Itself, if consulted, will help provide the answer.
 

StarryNightshade

Spiritually confused Jew
Premium Member
Ahh, and your example of the "millipede" dilemma also clarifies the record. But--and I may be perceived here as a hard-nosed purist (or something else!!) with this comment--but IMO, neither friend, family nor foe has the right to ask us to undertake an adharmic action. And we shouldn't give it to them, either. After all, it won't be they who reap the karmic consequences. This is where viveka comes to the rescue. A lovingly clever discriminating dharmic solution can surely be found if one seeks it. Dharma Itself, if consulted, will help provide the answer.

No, I hear ya. It will be me who reaps what I sow; not them. Then again, any and all actions we do will produce some kind of karma.

Like I said though, it was a situation where I really couldn't say no. Don't want to go into too much detail, but it is what it is. All I can really try to do is be more firm in my convictions and not be put in another situation like what I mentioned.
 

Sw. Vandana Jyothi

Truth is One, many are the Names
Premium Member
No, I hear ya. It will be me who reaps what I sow; not them. Then again, any and all actions we do will produce some kind of karma.

Just a reminder of something you already know from the Bhagavad Gita, Starry: no one can avoid acting, but actions taken without regard for their fruits, etc., do not produce additional karma. Food for thought. Guruji put it this way:

A statement in the Gita (IV:37) declares all karma is reduced to ashes by the fire of knowledge. It should be known that only those effects of karma which have bound the soul are totally burnt by the fire of knowledge in him who obtains such knowledge. It does not mean that he will have no more work; instead, he will then be working selflessly. He will do divine works in accordance with the Divine Will; this work will not bring him bondage.

Such selfless action performed through wisdom is called karma yoga. Selfish action is karma (cause) which will bring karma (effect); the performance of karma (duty) as a puja (worship) will bring jnana (wisdom), which burns all karma (the cause and effect of selfish actions).

The motive force in karma is selfish desire and its fulfillment; the motive power in karma yoga is selfless love and the renunciation of desire for the fulfillment of God’s work. Both are karma (action); but one binds, and the other releases. What is the reason? Motive. In karma, it is the motive which decides its results.​
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm living with my parents for the summer before I go back to school. Their house currently has a bit of a millipede infestation. On more than one occasion, I have been recruited to take care of some of them (aka, killing them). This is a place where I can't just say "no" directly.

Oh Gods, I hate those things. They creep me out beyond belief, not to mention they have a venomous sting. OK, it won't kill you, but it stings nevertheless. In one apartment I lived, we had very large and numerous ones. There wasn't a night that I didn't go into a room, flip on the light switch and find a couple on the wall. Yes, I had a standing monthly appointment with Terminix. Though I don't know if what they used was a repellant or an insecticide. And of course they are no better than cockroaches in the places they visit and potential pathogens they carry.

When I had raccoons and squirrels in my attic, I had a professional service trap and relocate them. I stressed to the technician that I did not want them harmed. But by law they cannot euthanize them anyway unless they are clearly ill. I know people don't want to hear this, but "vermin" is where I draw the line between removal and obliteration. We had a small invasion of mice also. Even though mice are considered vermin, and can carry pathogens in their droppings, I spread my cat's soiled litter outside the house where I thought the mice where getting in. Cat pee = no more mice.

I will not deliberately, or go out of my way to kill things like that if they pose not threat to me or my household. But otherwise I felt no guilt in exterminating the insects. Besides, who's to say it wasn't their karma to end that way? :D

:facepalm: OK, I'm sorry, I know people do take this seriously.

In other circumstances, e.g. behaviors one feels guilty about or knows is wrong, I agree with Swamini in making a hard effort to break the behavior. I'm wrestling with something, actually a few somethings like that now. Easy? No. Keep trying? Yes. Punishment is not the answer. That is so 5th grade Sister Mary Patricia Oreganata from Our Lady of Perpetual Motion School.
 

Sw. Vandana Jyothi

Truth is One, many are the Names
Premium Member
Oh Gods, I hate those things. They creep me out beyond belief, not to mention they have a venomous sting. OK, it won't kill you, but it stings nevertheless. In one apartment I lived, we had very large and numerous ones. There wasn't a night that I didn't go into a room, flip on the light switch and find a couple on the wall. Yes, I had a standing monthly appointment with Terminix. Though I don't know if what they used was a repellant or an insecticide. And of course they are no better than cockroaches in the places they visit and potential pathogens they carry.

When I had raccoons and squirrels in my attic, I had a professional service trap and relocate them. I stressed to the technician that I did not want them harmed. But by law they cannot euthanize them anyway unless they are clearly ill. I know people don't want to hear this, but "vermin" is where I draw the line between removal and obliteration. We had a small invasion of mice also. Even though mice are considered vermin, and can carry pathogens in their droppings, I spread my cat's soiled litter outside the house where I thought the mice where getting in. Cat pee = no more mice.

I will not deliberately, or go out of my way to kill things like that if they pose not threat to me or my household. But otherwise I felt no guilt in exterminating the insects. Besides, who's to say it wasn't their karma to end that way? :D

:facepalm: OK, I'm sorry, I know people do take this seriously.

In other circumstances, e.g. behaviors one feels guilty about or knows is wrong, I agree with Swamini in making a hard effort to break the behavior. I'm wrestling with something, actually a few somethings like that now. Easy? No. Keep trying? Yes. Punishment is not the answer. That is so 5th grade Sister Mary Patricia Oreganata from Our Lady of Perpetual Motion School.

Oy vey, Jai!! You make-a me laugh out loud!! Thanks, I needed that. Our Lady of Perpetual Motion School.... ha ha ha. Yeah, the punishment-reward combo is so, well, so unhelpful in the School of Yoga (the school where classes are always in session). IMO, of course :p
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Oh Gods, I hate those things.

Tiny insects, microbes, virus, bacteria etc. with ahimsa is really vague. I will release ants from the flowers I bring into my shrine room, but then half an hour later I drive 10 minutes to the temple, and kill 100 or so on the windshield, and probably drive over a few more. So it boils down to what you don't know about doesn't bother you.

The Tirukural says it's okay to remove the lion from the village.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
"Ya enaḿ vetti hantāraḿ, yaś cainaḿ manyate hatam;
ubhau tau na vijānīto, nāyaḿ hanti na hanyate."
BG 2.19

Neither he who thinks the living entity the slayer nor he who thinks it slain is in knowledge, for the self slays not nor is slain.
 
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