Prophecies and predicting them: Just an idea.

[Theweirdtophat]

I am wondering that perhaps people sometimes don't listen to them is because they expect them to happen exactly the way it's predicted. I've had dreams before that predicted events and prophecies usually have come in people's dreams. I dreamed of dancing with a girl in high school and two weeks later, I dance with her EXACTLY the same way EXCEPT she wore different clothes and there were people around us and in my dream I was with just her.

So I feel that prophecies can come true but not always the way people expect and isn't always described exactly the way it's predicts For example. if a person from the middle ages has a vision of a flying creature that flew across the air and made a roaring noise, when in fact it's really a flying jet, not a creature. The dream was true as it was something that flew in the air and made a roaring sound but wasn't described exactly the way it was envisioned.

I know in the Bible it talks of locusts harming individuals, but maybe they aren't LITERALLY locusts but in fact aliens that resemble locusts? Just food for thought.

I feel that perhaps quite a few prophecies have come true, but aren't always predicted exactly the way it was envisioned. I feel that perhaps some shouldn't dismiss them entirely. And if everything happens for a reason, there is a reason why they envisioned it and why they told it to others.

Also I feel that perhaps prophecies can change one they are told to others. That one a person knows, their course may change but not entirely, as nothing is really set in stone. what do you think?

 

[George-ananda]

what do you think?

I do believe in prophetic dreams. That said, my rational mind has a tough time with that belief as the normal linear progression of time is how my mind naturally works. So, I think, how can someone see the future in a prophetic vision? I have come to believe that linear time is just the way our minds normally work, but that the ultimate reality is more complex and in our 'beyond the normal' consciousness moments we can experience reality differently.

 

[Augustus]

I am wondering that perhaps people sometimes don't listen to them is because they expect them to happen exactly the way it's predicted. I've had dreams before that predicted events and prophecies usually have come in people's dreams. I dreamed of dancing with a girl in high school and two weeks later, I dance with her EXACTLY the same way EXCEPT she wore different clothes and there were people around us and in my dream I was with just her.

So I feel that prophecies can come true but not always the way people expect and isn't always described exactly the way it's predicts For example. if a person from the middle ages has a vision of a flying creature that flew across the air and made a roaring noise, when in fact it's really a flying jet, not a creature. The dream was true as it was something that flew in the air and made a roaring sound but wasn't described exactly the way it was envisioned.

I know in the Bible it talks of locusts harming individuals, but maybe they aren't LITERALLY locusts but in fact aliens that resemble locusts? Just food for thought.

I feel that perhaps quite a few prophecies have come true, but aren't always predicted exactly the way it was envisioned. I feel that perhaps some shouldn't dismiss them entirely. And if everything happens for a reason, there is a reason why they envisioned it and why they told it to others.

Also I feel that perhaps prophecies can change one they are told to others. That one a person knows, their course may change but not entirely, as nothing is really set in stone. what do you think?

I think it's just a coincidence.

Things that are seem amazing and have very small odds of actually happen all of the time. Something with a probability of 1,000,000 to 1 should happen to you every week or so.

It's like when you think of a friend who you haven't heard from in 5 years then they call you 10 minutes later, you think 'wow, what are the odds on that happening? I must be psychic'.

The problem is we look at probabilities the wrong way. It's like the odds on you winning the lottery are 15,000,000/1, but for anyone winning the lottery they are odds on. The odds on a specific person winning are astronomical, the odds on a non-specific person winning are tiny.

The odds on you having a specific freaky occurrence, say you dreaming about dancing with a girl then it coming true, are very high. The odds on a non-specific freaky occurrence happening to you are very low. It would be far more amazing if you have never had a freaky occurrence like that, rather than if you have had many.

So many things happen to us that some are bound to be strange and can seem prophetic with the gift of hindsight, especially if we are allowed a bit of poetic license when interpreting them.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I think the only thing about me is that I don't really believe in coincidences. I didn't have a crush on the girl, although I did think she was attractive. But for a couple weeks later, I end up dancing with her and I do it exactly the same way? If we were just dancing that'd something but we danced exactly the way my dream predicted, except she wore different clothes and there were people around us.

I think the brain picks up patterns and ends up dreaming of it, even slight patterns. Some dreams can come true but not always the way you envision it, or it does come true from a certain point of view.

 

[Nakosis]

I suppose I don't like the idea that dreams are predictive because then you are locked into a specific future. You have no choice except to experience the events in the dream. You've no control over your destiny.

However want if the dream caused the event. You have a dream which sets the universe into motion to fulfill the dream?

Even you having the dream to some degree sets you on the path to fulfillment. Like in the dream you are not consciously in control. Even as we go through daily life we are not in complete conscious control, however you can take control to a greater of lessor degree.

So how about if you consciously create a future event in your mind, and consciously cause that event to happen. More likely to happen exactly as you imagine because you are consciously in control.

You predicted the future or you created it. A lot of this "life" we leave to unconscious control. So things may not turn out as you consciously imagined it. Or as your subconscious dreamed it.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I suppose I don't like the idea that dreams are predictive because then you are locked into a specific future. You have no choice except to experience the events in the dream. You've no control over your destiny.

However want if the dream caused the event. You have a dream which sets the universe into motion to fulfill the dream?

Even you having the dream to some degree sets you on the path to fulfillment. Like in the dream you are not consciously in control. Even as we go through daily life we are not in complete conscious control, however you can take control to a greater of lessor degree.

So how about if you consciously create a future event in your mind, and consciously cause that event to happen. More likely to happen exactly as you imagine because you are consciously in control.

You predicted the future or you created it. A lot of this "life" we leave to unconscious control. So things may not turn out as you consciously imagined it. Or as your subconscious dreamed it.

Not necessarily. Nothing is set in stone and really those prophetic dreams seem to be the things that may be, not the things that will be. Meaning it could happen if one follows a certain path and if it does happen, it may not be exactly the way you thought.

 

[Donmax]

I am wondering that perhaps people sometimes don't listen to them is because they expect them to happen exactly the way it's predicted. I've had dreams before that predicted events and prophecies usually have come in people's dreams. I dreamed of dancing with a girl in high school and two weeks later, I dance with her EXACTLY the same way EXCEPT she wore different clothes and there were people around us and in my dream I was with just her.

So I feel that prophecies can come true but not always the way people expect and isn't always described exactly the way it's predicts For example. if a person from the middle ages has a vision of a flying creature that flew across the air and made a roaring noise, when in fact it's really a flying jet, not a creature. The dream was true as it was something that flew in the air and made a roaring sound but wasn't described exactly the way it was envisioned.

I know in the Bible it talks of locusts harming individuals, but maybe they aren't LITERALLY locusts but in fact aliens that resemble locusts? Just food for thought.

I feel that perhaps quite a few prophecies have come true, but aren't always predicted exactly the way it was envisioned. I feel that perhaps some shouldn't dismiss them entirely. And if everything happens for a reason, there is a reason why they envisioned it and why they told it to others.

Also I feel that perhaps prophecies can change one they are told to others. That one a person knows, their course may change but not entirely, as nothing is really set in stone. what do you think?

I think prophetic dreams happen because when we sleep our mind sometimes relaxed into a rotating of time, if you think about it everything rotates around us even time and even though we're part of that rotation our physical presence don't feel it so when we're asleep our dreams has no physical presence of time, but our subconscious mind still has an existent and i suppose in a way our unconscious mind as well and within the rotation of time we can sometimes see and hear within and beyond the borders of our own physical time, even our own existence but still we're only looking into time.

Time to me has many layers of existence and we as humans are part of that existence because we're the creators of our own physical presence of our own time from the moment we're born to the moment we die, so why wouldn't we have prophetic dreams, but that doesn't mean if you dream about the future its going to come true only physical presence can make that happen.

And it sounds like your physical presence was in the right place at the right time.

 

[HonestJoe]

I dreamed of dancing with a girl in high school and two weeks later, I dance with her EXACTLY the same way EXCEPT she wore different clothes and there were people around us and in my dream I was with just her.

The problem is that's a fairly predictable event. You would have known there was going to be a dance you'd both be at and you dancing with her would be possible. It's perfectly natural for you to dream of that possibility. There'll be loads of things you dream about that don't happen though.

For example. if a person from the middle ages has a vision of a flying creature that flew across the air and made a roaring noise, when in fact it's really a flying jet, not a creature. The dream was true as it was something that flew in the air and made a roaring sound but wasn't described exactly the way it was envisioned.

Or they could have just imagined a loud flying creature and the vague similarity to modern aircraft is a coincidence. The connection is so vague that you'd need to establish some kind of actual link or mechanism to support any suggestion of this kind of "prophesy".

I know in the Bible it talks of locusts harming individuals, but maybe they aren't LITERALLY locusts but in fact aliens that resemble locusts? Just food for thought.

Maybe it's all just fairy magic and the who Bible is wrong. Maybe we're all in the Matrix and none of this is real. You can come up with literally countless maybes but if all you have is that random speculation, what's the point?

I feel that perhaps quite a few prophecies have come true, but aren't always predicted exactly the way it was envisioned. I feel that perhaps some shouldn't dismiss them entirely.

If prophecies are real but that unspecific and vague, they're pretty useless. It's almost worse than them not being real at all. "Dismiss" might be a little harsh but I see no reason to respond to such claims without any concrete support for their validity and practical use.

The other issue with prophesy or predictions are the irrational leaps of faith where they're presented as definitive proof of a specific religious or supernatural belief.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

The problem is that's a fairly predictable event. You would have known there was going to be a dance you'd both be at and you dancing with her would be possible. It's perfectly natural for you to dream of that possibility. There'll be loads of things you dream about that don't happen though.

Or they could have just imagined a loud flying creature and the vague similarity to modern aircraft is a coincidence. The connection is so vague that you'd need to establish some kind of actual link or mechanism to support any suggestion of this kind of "prophesy".

Maybe it's all just fairy magic and the who Bible is wrong. Maybe we're all in the Matrix and none of this is real. You can come up with literally countless maybes but if all you have is that random speculation, what's the point?

If prophecies are real but that unspecific and vague, they're pretty useless. It's almost worse than them not being real at all. "Dismiss" might be a little harsh but I see no reason to respond to such claims without any concrete support for their validity and practical use.

The other issue with prophesy or predictions are the irrational leaps of faith where they're presented as definitive proof of a specific religious or supernatural belief.

I didn't really planned on going to the dance but sort of went at the last minute. I didn't even have a crush on her, just thought she was cute. I wouldn't have been that amazed if we didn't dance exactly the same way that I dreamed it, except she wore different clothes. Also the dream was rather realistic, almost as if I was there and I feel that the more realistic the dream is, the more likely it's going to happen, as many people who have had prophetic dreams had very realistic experiences while dreaming.

I don't really believe in coincidences. Also just because prophecies don't give you exact directions on what's going to happen, and how it's going to happen, doesn't mean they are useless. They are there for a reason. Everything happens for a reason.

I already know the whole Bible isn't wrong, as it has shown various things that DID happen in history. I know there are things that are exaggerated or twisted around, but there are already prophecies that the Bible predicted and it's not JUST the Bible, but also religious texts, as there are religious texts in Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, and various Pagan religions that have already predicted things that did happen and are most likely going to happen.

I don't think prophecies are unavoidable as I believe they are the things that may be, not the things that will be. When things go a certain way, it displays a pattern, and when following that pattern, THIS is what will most likely happen unless it is changed.

 

[HonestJoe]

I didn't really planned on going to the dance but sort of went at the last minute...

All of that is irrelevant. The fact remains that is was a perfectly normal event with a perfectly reasonable probability of happening regardless of whether you dreamed about it or not. Unless you can demonstrate a mechanism for "prophesy" - how the information about an event that will happen got in to your brain - you have nothing.

I don't really believe in coincidences.

Coincidence is a logical and psychological inevitability. Humans have natural instincts to find patterns and subconsciously predict events. Those lead to (perceived) coincidences.

Also just because prophecies don't give you exact directions on what's going to happen, and how it's going to happen, doesn't mean they are useless.

It kind of does really. If the purpose of prophecy is to guide our actions, inaccuracy and uncertainty damages like that - like a recipe saying you need "some flour". If the purpose is to prove the existence of some kind of supernatural power, why would they not be made more reliable?

I know there are things that are exaggerated or twisted around, but there are already prophecies that the Bible predicted and it's not JUST the Bible, but also religious texts, as there are religious texts in Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, and various Pagan religions that have already predicted things that did happen and are most likely going to happen.

No "prophecy" has ever been definitively proven to be accurate. Many have been re-translated, twisted and retrofitted to fit something after the event.

Again, if you are claiming that the events of the future are fixed and there is some mechanism which allows data relating to those future events to be known by individuals now, all you have to do is present that mechanism. If you don't know what that mechanism is, you can't say it isn't a combination of coincidence, fraud and wishful thinking.....

 

[Theweirdtophat]

All of that is irrelevant. The fact remains that is was a perfectly normal event with a perfectly reasonable probability of happening regardless of whether you dreamed about it or not. Unless you can demonstrate a mechanism for "prophesy" - how the information about an event that will happen got in to your brain - you have nothing.

Coincidence is a logical and psychological inevitability. Humans have natural instincts to find patterns and subconsciously predict events. Those lead to (perceived) coincidences.

It kind of does really. If the purpose of prophecy is to guide our actions, inaccuracy and uncertainty damages like that - like a recipe saying you need "some flour". If the purpose is to prove the existence of some kind of supernatural power, why would they not be made more reliable?

No "prophecy" has ever been definitively proven to be accurate. Many have been re-translated, twisted and retrofitted to fit something after the event.

Again, if you are claiming that the events of the future are fixed and there is some mechanism which allows data relating to those future events to be known by individuals now, all you have to do is present that mechanism. If you don't know what that mechanism is, you can't say it isn't a combination of coincidence, fraud and wishful thinking.....

I have something. Experience, something some people lack. What cannot be explained can at least be experienced. Brains can pick up patterns and if they do, they can dream about it.

No it isn't useless. There's a reason behind it. For a brain to pick up a pattern, of course it's not going to be 100% accurate. It's picking up something that hasn't happened yet. Seeing into the future is kind of like squinting your eyes. You can kind of see what's there, but can't always make out the details. Dreams have a purpose and some are prophetic. Just because it was a normal event doesn't change the fact that I dreamed about it before it happened. And it happened almost exactly the way I dreamed about it.

There are prophecies that have already happened. Such as with Moses who said the Jews would be spread across the world which did happen or when Jesus said the 2nd temple would be destroyed, which did happen. Many of the things they have predicted are happening now. Lots of religions have said that many bad things would happen before things got better, such as people losing their faith in spiritual practices, (there are more atheists than ever before) people becoming more immoral and unethical. (such as more stealing, more crime in general) people becoming more lustful towards each other and strange sexual practices and preferences( look at all the sex you see in the industry whether it's on tv or porn, there's more gay and incestuous marriage as well and more pedophiles are running around) the environment will slowly be destroyed (I don't believe in global warming but have you seen how much damage there has been done to the environment, whether it involves making animals extinct, destroying landscapes to make way for something else, or oil or radiation spills into the ocean) Lots of those religions predicted such events and we're living in it now.

But as I said, I believe they are the things that may be, not will be. If you sense a pattern with your brain, and could forsee it, you could make better plans to change it.

 

[HonestJoe]

I have something. Experience, something some people lack. What cannot be explained can at least be experienced. Brains can pick up patterns and if they do, they can dream about it.

Sure you've had dreams that come true (or events occur that you falsely believe you previously dreamed) - we all have that. What you don't have is anything to support, let alone prove, your claim that this involves any actual prediction of future events.

No it isn't useless.

What is the use then? Why did you have that dream? What benefit did you gain from it given you didn't even know it was a prediction until the event happened?

Just because it was a normal event doesn't change the fact that I dreamed about it before it happened. And it happened almost exactly the way I dreamed about it.

Well you've already said there were key aspects that weren't as you'd dreamed. There is also the issue of confirmation bias, where you could be wrongly remembering the dream and subconsciously incorporating real events in the gaps in your memory. After all, you never said anything about recording the precise details of your dream. They are by their nature sketchy and easy to misremember.

There are prophecies that have already happened. Such as with Moses who said the Jews would be spread across the world which did happen or when Jesus said the 2nd temple would be destroyed, which did happen. Many of the things they have predicted are happening now.

Such people also said things that didn't happen (such as Jesus returning in the apostles' lifetimes). With the temple, both the prediction and the event are recorded in the same text so there is no way of knowing it actually happened.

Lots of religions have said that many bad things would happen before things got better...

Those are hardly specific predictions and it's questionable whether things are actually "worse" now than they were at the time these statements were made.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Sure you've had dreams that come true (or events occur that you falsely believe you previously dreamed) - we all have that. What you don't have is anything to support, let alone prove, your claim that this involves any actual prediction of future events.

What is the use then? Why did you have that dream? What benefit did you gain from it given you didn't even know it was a prediction until the event happened?

Well you've already said there were key aspects that weren't as you'd dreamed. There is also the issue of confirmation bias, where you could be wrongly remembering the dream and subconsciously incorporating real events in the gaps in your memory. After all, you never said anything about recording the precise details of your dream. They are by their nature sketchy and easy to misremember.

Such people also said things that didn't happen (such as Jesus returning in the apostles' lifetimes). With the temple, both the prediction and the event are recorded in the same text so there is no way of knowing it actually happened.

Those are hardly specific predictions and it's questionable whether things are actually "worse" now than they were at the time these statements were made.

Just because one doesn't understand the reason, doesn't mean there wasn't a reason to begin with. There was. And there is a reason why we dream. Otherwise, we wouldn't dream at all. The stuff in the bible is only one of things that have predicted what's going on now.

I'm not sure if it'd make a difference if I wrote down the precise details or not. I remember the dream well and it was almost as if I was there. I observed that almost all the time, the more realistic the dream is, and if it looks like some kind of prophecy, the more likely it's going to happen. I've had dreams where I felt it foretold the near future, yet didn't happen, yet the more realistic ones tend to predict it, even if not all the details were exact.

A lot of things have pointed out to the degeneration of society and it isn't just Christianity that's pointed it out. I feel as if they've already predicted a lot of the things that we're going through. Seems to fit their description.

 

[HonestJoe]

Just because one doesn't understand the reason, doesn't mean there wasn't a reason to begin with.

I agree, but it also doesn't mean there was one either. I'm not flatly denying your hypothesis, only challenging your unconditionally assertion that it is entirely true when you have zero concrete evidence to support it or explanation of how it could occur as you describe.

I'm not sure if it'd make a difference if I wrote down the precise details or not. I remember the dream well and it was almost as if I was there.

If your recall of the dream was at or after the dance, the real events could (and probably would) influence the memory of the dream. Any legitimate prediction of "prophecy" needs to be clearly established before the event it's predicting occurs.

I've had dreams where I felt it foretold the near future, yet didn't happen, yet the more realistic ones tend to predict it, even if not all the details were exact.

If I predicted the result of 10 coin tosses and got the right answer half or the time, would that mean I was performing some kind of mystical prophecy? Of course not. Our dreams will naturally combine memories, knowledge and expectation to sometimes form images of events that could happen in the future. Sometimes they will and sometimes they won't. We could do the same thing consciously too. There is nothing special about this.

A lot of things have pointed out to the degeneration of society and it isn't just Christianity that's pointed it out. I feel as if they've already predicted a lot of the things that we're going through. Seems to fit their description.

As I said, I question the simplistic idea that society has degenerated as predicted. There are plenty of aspects of modern society which are much better than they were in the past and plenty that are largely unchanged. You're selecting a subset of religious predictions and bending the facts to fit them after the event. None of that is specific or accurate enough to prove anything.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I agree, but it also doesn't mean there was one either. I'm not flatly denying your hypothesis, only challenging your unconditionally assertion that it is entirely true when you have zero concrete evidence to support it or explanation of how it could occur as you describe.

If your recall of the dream was at or after the dance, the real events could (and probably would) influence the memory of the dream. Any legitimate prediction of "prophecy" needs to be clearly established before the event it's predicting occurs.

If I predicted the result of 10 coin tosses and got the right answer half or the time, would that mean I was performing some kind of mystical prophecy? Of course not. Our dreams will naturally combine memories, knowledge and expectation to sometimes form images of events that could happen in the future. Sometimes they will and sometimes they won't. We could do the same thing consciously too. There is nothing special about this.

As I said, I question the simplistic idea that society has degenerated as predicted. There are plenty of aspects of modern society which are much better than they were in the past and plenty that are largely unchanged. You're selecting a subset of religious predictions and bending the facts to fit them after the event. None of that is specific or accurate enough to prove anything.

There is always a reason for everything, even if you don't understand the reason behind it. What may seem pointless isn't always pointless or random As I said, everything happens for a reason. I cannot give evidence because these are dreams. How could I give evidence that I dreamed of events before they happened?

I recall it clearly that I dreamed about it several weeks BEFORE the dance took place. I wasn't planning to dance with her but I ended up doing so and it was depicted the way I dreamed of it. Societies of the present and past have their virtues and vices, but they way described it fits their predictions quite well when it comes to the vices of our culture today. Not to mention they talk about the world being ruined at some point which isn't entirely implausible today. You couldn't ruin or destroy the Earth back then so easily. Now it's quite easy to do it with nuclear bombs, radiation and pollution.

I understand that you're more skeptical and know that you aren't really religious or spiritual so I don't expect you to have the same frame of reference as other spiritual people. You ask for evidence and proof but I said what can't be explained can be experienced. The only way you'll know is experience it yourself.

 

[HonestJoe]

How could I give evidence that I dreamed of events before they happened?

Whenever you wake up from a dream you think could be predictive, you write down as many details as you can recall at that point. If a related event does subsequently occur, you can compare it with the actual dream (rather than just your old recollection of it). You could also establish how many dreams you have which don't actually predict anything.

If you were doing it formally, a third party would be recording, storing and analysing your dream records and analysis of your brain activity when sleeping would be useful to establish any difference between predictive and non-predictive dreaming (since as I said, the lack of any kind of mechanism for this phenomena is at least as significant).

Societies of the present and past have their virtues and vices...

You're still talking in far too general terms about a massive range of hugely varied predictions, prophecies and revelations. You would need much more detailed analysis of them all to support any kind of definitive statements about their veracity.

I understand that you're more skeptical and know that you aren't really religious or spiritual so I don't expect you to have the same frame of reference as other spiritual people. You ask for evidence and proof but I said what can't be explained can be experienced. The only way you'll know is experience it yourself.

What you've described can be explained. I've offered one perfectly viable explanation but if there is really some kind of supernatural influence, that could be explained too. You have a singular answer you want to be true for which you have no explanation. That's no justification for dismissing any alternatives just because they don't fit your preconceptions.

 

[morphesium]

I am wondering that perhaps people sometimes don't listen to them is because they expect them to happen exactly the way it's predicted. I've had dreams before that predicted events and prophecies usually have come in people's dreams. I dreamed of dancing with a girl in high school and two weeks later, I dance with her EXACTLY the same way EXCEPT she wore different clothes and there were people around us and in my dream I was with just her.

So I feel that prophecies can come true but not always the way people expect and isn't always described exactly the way it's predicts For example. if a person from the middle ages has a vision of a flying creature that flew across the air and made a roaring noise, when in fact it's really a flying jet, not a creature. The dream was true as it was something that flew in the air and made a roaring sound but wasn't described exactly the way it was envisioned.

I know in the Bible it talks of locusts harming individuals, but maybe they aren't LITERALLY locusts but in fact aliens that resemble locusts? Just food for thought.

I feel that perhaps quite a few prophecies have come true, but aren't always predicted exactly the way it was envisioned. I feel that perhaps some shouldn't dismiss them entirely. And if everything happens for a reason, there is a reason why they envisioned it and why they told it to others.

Also I feel that perhaps prophecies can change one they are told to others. That one a person knows, their course may change but not entirely, as nothing is really set in stone. what do you think?

Someone dreams of rain and someone else would dream of a pleasant non-rainy day. I hope you got the point.