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Prophet Jesus (PBUH) Never Claimed Divinity

Muffled

Jesus in me
First you didn't understood my point ,we Muslims believe in the revelation given to jesus(pbuh) which is not Bible today , we Muslims agree that some part of Bible could be correct but not all and the fact is major section of bible which has been corrupted ,and many books have been written on that by Christians scholars themselves ,i can quote them here if you want and they are fill with proof's

If you believe in a revelation of Jesus that is not Bible, you believe in nothing of value. For instance there are books written by adherents of heresy which can be seen as denying the truth of God. Those books have no value.

I have never seen such a claim. Those who were responsible for the translation of my Bible claim that they have everything from the original (existing) documents.

I am willing to listen to this as long as you keep it brief. If I need to know more I will ask.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Also you never answered the last part of my question

why are there so many contradictions in Bible including mathematics,history,science etc can you attribute that to god??

That is like asking why we only have one sun instead of two. God does what He thinks is best.

I can't attribute it to God directly. However He doesn't seem to have a problem with it so why do you?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Again, there is no such thing as trinity in bible

And there is nowhere in complete bible where jesus(pbuh) himself says
1)iam god
2) worship me

But Quran mentions Trinity

Verse 4:171
People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity'—stop, that is better for you—God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to Trust


Verses 5:72–75

Those who say, 'God is the Messiah, son of Mary,' have defied God. The Messiah himself said, 'Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers.

Those people who say that God is the third of three are defying [the truth]: there is only One God. If they persist in what they are saying, a painful punishment will afflict those of them who persist. Why do they not turn to God and ask his forgiveness, when God is most forgiving, most merciful? The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; other messengers had come and gone before him; his mother was a virtuous woman; both ate food. See how clear We make these signs for them; see how deluded they are....

Verse 5:116

When God says, 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to people, "Take me and my mother as two gods alongside God"?' he will say, 'May You be exalted! I would never say what I had no right to say—if I had said such a thing You would have known it: You know all that is within me, though I do not know what is within You, You alone have full knowledge of things unseen (Qur'an 5:116)

You make this claim however the Biblical record does not support your claim. The Biblical record is that Jesus uses Father to refer to God and equates Himself and the Paraclete with the father.

This is the null hypothesis which does not prove anything. Jesus does equate Himself with God and allows Himself to be worshipped.

Notice it doesn't say "because it isn't true" but says "it is better for you." I am sure a great deal of confusion could be avoided by doing so. No doubt Allah found the confusion about this in the Christian Church distressing.

That is not what we say. We do not say God is Jesus; we say Jesus is God. It is a totally different concept. Saying God is Jesus is idolatry. Saying Jesus is God is not.
 

smokydot

Well-Known Member
You make this claim however the Biblical record does not support your claim. The Biblical record is that Jesus uses Father to refer to God and equates Himself and the Paraclete with the father.

This is the null hypothesis which does not prove anything. Jesus does equate Himself with God and allows Himself to be worshipped.

Notice it doesn't say "because it isn't true" but says "it is better for you." I am sure a great deal of confusion could be avoided by doing so. No doubt Allah found the confusion about this in the Christian Church distressing.

That is not what we say. We do not say God is Jesus; we say Jesus is God. It is a totally different concept. Saying God is Jesus is idolatry. Saying Jesus is God is not.

Are you saying there are three Gods?
 

smokydot

Well-Known Member
You make this claim however the Biblical record does not support your claim. The Biblical record is that Jesus uses Father to refer to God and equates Himself and the Paraclete with the father.

This is the null hypothesis which does not prove anything. Jesus does equate Himself with God and allows Himself to be worshipped.

Notice it doesn't say "because it isn't true" but says "it is better for you." I am sure a great deal of confusion could be avoided by doing so. No doubt Allah found the confusion about this in the Christian Church distressing.

That is not what we say. We do not say God is Jesus; we say Jesus is God. It is a totally different concept. Saying God is Jesus is idolatry. Saying Jesus is God is not.

Are you saying there are three beings who are Gods of the Bible?
The Biblical testimony is that there is one, and only one being, who is God.
 
if the jews/israel would have recognized/praised/claimed allah(and still praise allah), i would beleive that.... instead i see 600 years or so after Jesus even, muhammad claims everyone was wrong/different god, and meant allah
 

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member
Actually, Jesus did claim divinity in several places in the New Testament.

Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare'a Philip'pi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?" And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli'jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
(Matthew 16:13-17 RSV)

Here we clearly see Jesus asking the disciples who they say that He is. Well, Peter speaks up and says "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus does not rebuke him or correct him. No, He actually replies in the affirmative and tells Peter that he is blessed and that His Father has revealed this to him. Jesus would not have done this if He believed that he was not divine but merely a prophet.

Now the chief priests and the whole council sought false testimony against Jesus that they might put him to death, but they found none, though many false witnesses came forward. At last two came forward and said, "This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.'" And the high priest stood up and said, "Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?" But Jesus was silent. And the high priest said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
(Matthew 26:59-64 RSV)

And here we see the chief priests and the council trying to accuse Jesus of blasphemy. And what was this blasphemy that Jesus supposedly committed? The blasphemy that He was accused of committing was claiming to be the Son of God. So, the high priest asks Him if He is the Son of God and Jesus answers in the affirmative. Again, Jesus would not have said this if He believed He was only a prophet.

This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God.
(John 5:18 RSV)

Here we see that the Jews were wanting to kill Jesus because Jesus called God His Father which was to make Himself equal with God.

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
(John 8:58 RSV)

Here Jesus refers to Himself as "I am". Anyone who knows much about the Old Testament will also know that God calls Himself "I am" when speaking to Moses and in other places. Here is one example of this from the Old Testament:

Then Moses said to God, "If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' what shall I say to them?" God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
(Exodus 3:13-14 RSV)

Eight days later, his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. The doors were shut, but Jesus came and stood among them, and said, "Peace be with you." Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing." Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."
(John 20:26-29 RSV)

Here we see Jesus appearing to the disciples after His resurrection. Thomas had doubted Jesus' resurrection and so Jesus told him to touch His wounds and believe. Thomas did this and when He did this, he cried out "My Lord and my God!". Again, Jesus does not rebuke or correct this. Instead, Jesus says that those who believe this without seeing what Thomas saw are blessed. If Jesus believed that He was only a prophet, He would have rebuked and corrected Thomas.

Continued in next post...
 

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member
Now, of course, some Muslims will say, "Well, just because the Bible says this does not mean that Jesus really said those things. The Bible has been changed down throughout the centuries and is no longer the same as it was when it was originally written. It is now corrupted." Well, I hate to tell you this but this simply is not true. I will quote an article that I have on a Bible study program of mine on my computer. I quote this article in its entirety. As far as I know, it is not under copyright so I am free to do this:

Archaeology and History Attest to the Reliability of the Bible
Mat_4:4
By Richard M. Fales, Ph.D.
No other ancient book is questioned or maligned like the Bible. Critics looking for the flyspeck in the masterpiece allege that there was a long span between the time the events in the New Testament occurred and when they were recorded. They claim another gap exists archaeologically between the earliest copies made and the autographs of the New Testament. In reality, the alleged spaces and socalled gaps exist only in the minds of the critics.
Manuscript Evidence. Aristotle’s Ode to Poetics was written between 384 and 322 B.C. The earliest copy of this work dates A.D. 1100, and there are only forty-nine extant manuscripts. The gap between the original writing and the earliest copy is 1,400 years. There are only seven extant manuscripts of Plato’s Tetralogies, written 427–347 B.C. The earliest copy is A.D. 900—a gap of over 1,200 years. What about the New Testament? Jesus was crucified in A.D. 30. The New Testament was written between A.D. 48 and 95. The oldest manuscripts date to the last quarter of the first century, and the second oldest A.D. 125. This gives us a narrow gap of thirty-five to forty years from the originals written by the apostles.
From the early centuries, we have some 5,300 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Altogether, including Syriac, Latin, Coptic, and Aramaic, we have a whopping 24,633 texts of the ancient New Testament to confirm the wording of the Scriptures. So the bottom line is, there was no great period between the events of the New Testament and the New Testament writings. Nor is there a great time lapse between the original writings and the oldest copies. With the great body of manuscript evidence, it can be proved, beyond a doubt, that the New Testament says exactly the same things today as it originally did nearly 2,000 years ago.
Corroborating Writings. Critics also charge that there are no ancient writings about Jesus outside the New Testament. This is another ridiculous claim. Writings confirming His birth, ministry, death, and resurrection include Flavius Josephus (A.D. 93), the Babylonian Talmud (A.D. 70–200), Pliny the Younger’s letter to the Emperor Trajan (approx. A.D. 100), the Annals of Tacitus (A.D. 115–117), Mara Bar Serapion (sometime after A.D. 73), and Suetonius’ Life of Claudius and Life of Nero (A.D. 120). Another point of contention arises when Bible critics have knowingly or unknowingly misled people by implying that Old and New Testament books were either excluded from or added into the canon of Scripture at the great ecumenical councils of A.D. 336, 382, 397, and 419. In fact, one result of these gatherings was to confirm the Church’s belief that the books already in the Bible were divinely inspired. Therefore, the Church, at these meetings, neither added to nor took away from the books of the Bible. At that time, the thirty-nine Old Testament books had already been accepted, and the New Testament, as it was written, simply grew up with the ancient Church. Each document, being accepted as it was penned in the first century, was then passed on to Christians of the next century. So, this foolishness about the Roman Emperor Constantine dropping books from the Bible is simply uneducated rumor.
Fulfilled Prophecies. Prophecies from the Old and New Testaments that have been fulfilled also add credibility to the Bible. The Scriptures predicted the rise and fall of great empires like Greece and Rome (Dan_2:39-40), and foretold the destruction of cities like Tyre and Sidon (Isa_23:1-18). Tyre’s demise is recorded by ancient historians, who tell how Alexander the Great lay siege to the city for seven months. King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon had failed in a 13-year attempt to capture the seacoast city and completely destroy its inhabitants. During the siege of 573 B.C., much of the population of Tyre moved to its new island home approximately half a mile from the land city. Here it remained surrounded by walls as high as 150 feet until judgment fell in 332 B.C. with the arrival of Alexander the Great. In the seven-month siege, he fulfilled the remainder of the prophecies (Zec_9:4; Eze_26:12) concerning the city at sea by completely destroying Tyre, killing 8,000 of its inhabitants and selling 30,000 of its population into slavery. To reach the island, he scraped up the dust and rubble of the old land city of Tyre, just like the Bible predicted, and cast them into the sea, building a 200-foot-wide causeway out to the island.
Alexander’s death and the murder of his two sons was also foretold in the Scripture. Another startling prophecy was Jesus’ detailed prediction of Jerusalem’s destruction, and the further spreading of the Jewish diaspora throughout the world, which is recorded in Luk_21:1-38. In A.D. 70, not only was Jerusalem destroyed by Titus, the future emperor of Rome, but another prediction of Jesus Christ in Mat_24:1-2 came to pass—the complete destruction of the temple of God.
Messianic Prophecies. In the Book of Daniel, the Bible prophesied the coming of the one and only Jewish Messiah prior to the temple’s demise. The Old Testament prophets declared He would be born in Bethlehem (Mic_5:2) to a virgin (Isa_7:14), be betrayed for thirty pieces of silver (Zec_11:12-13), die by crucifixion (Psa_22:1-31), and be buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isa_53:9). There was only one person who fits all of the messianic prophecies of the Old Testament who lived before A.D. 70: Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of Mary.
Yes, the Bible is an amazing book. (See also 1Pe_1:25 footnote.)
 

A Thousand Suns

Rationalist
Actually, Jesus did claim divinity in several places in the New Testament.

Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare'a Philip'pi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?" And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli'jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
(Matthew 16:13-17 RSV).

Yes I agree with that----and its true that jesus(pbuh) is the son of god---just like according to Bible other Prophets Adam, Abraham were

actually according to bible anyone who follows god is the son of god

Also BIBLE ALSO CLEARLY states that


Jesus(pbuh) told 3 times in New-testament that God is One

(Mk 12:29)"Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one"

(Eph 4:6) "There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

(Jas 2:19)"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder"


======================================================
Jesus(pbuh) clearly said my father/

(i) "My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28]

(ii) "My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]

(iii) "…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

(iv) "…I with the finger of God cast out devils…."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]

(v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]
 

allright

Active Member
Saying God is one does not mean its referring to only one individual.

1 John 1 For there are three that bear record in Heaven ,the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit and these three are one.

John 8:58 Jesus said "Before Abraham was I am" declaring himself eternal and God.
Exodus 3:13,14
Moses ask God "what is you name"
He replied tell my people "I am" has sent me to you.
 

A Thousand Suns

Rationalist
Saying God is one does not mean its referring to only one individual.

1 John 1 For there are three that bear record in Heaven ,the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit and these three are one.

John 8:58 Jesus said "Before Abraham was I am" declaring himself eternal and God.
Exodus 3:13,14
Moses ask God "what is you name"
He replied tell my people "I am" has sent me to you.

It no trinity you just have to understand why did Jesus say: "Before Abraham was, I am."

Verse 53 shows that the Jews regard Abraham as an important or great person for them. At verse 55 Jesus said that he knows Abraham. The Jews replied to him by asking: "Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?" (Verse 57).

From verse 57 we can see that the Jews are questioning if Jesus has existed at the time of Abraham, because Jesus claimed that he knows Abraham. They are NOT questioning if Jesus is the God Almighty.

So when the Jews asked Jesus if has seen Abraham (verse 57), Jesus replied: "Before Abraham was, I am." (verse 58). This simply means that has existed long before Abraham did.

Some might ask: why did the Jews threw stones at Jesus at verse 59? It is because the Jews regarded Abraham as a great person (verse 53), and they cannot accept that Jesus has existed before him.


Exodus 3:13,14
Moses ask God "what is you name"
He replied tell my people "I am" has sent me to you.


Other Bible Translations with no 'I AM'

"From before Abraham was, I have been." The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes.

"I existed before Abraham was born!" The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.

"I was alive before Abraham was born!" The Simple English Bible.

"Before Abraham came into existence, I have been." New World Translation of the Holy
 

thedope

Active Member
How would we treat Jesus knowing that he is equal to the least?
As you do unto the least of these, you do to me also.
I am is a name we all inherit in creation.
 

allright

Active Member
It no trinity you just have to understand why did Jesus say: "Before Abraham was, I am."

Verse 53 shows that the Jews regard Abraham as an important or great person for them. At verse 55 Jesus said that he knows Abraham. The Jews replied to him by asking: "Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?" (Verse 57).

From verse 57 we can see that the Jews are questioning if Jesus has existed at the time of Abraham, because Jesus claimed that he knows Abraham. They are NOT questioning if Jesus is the God Almighty.

So when the Jews asked Jesus if has seen Abraham (verse 57), Jesus replied: "Before Abraham was, I am." (verse 58). This simply means that has existed long before Abraham did.

Some might ask: why did the Jews threw stones at Jesus at verse 59? It is because the Jews regarded Abraham as a great person (verse 53), and they cannot accept that Jesus has existed before him.





Other Bible Translations with no 'I AM'

"From before Abraham was, I have been." The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes.

"I existed before Abraham was born!" The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.

"I was alive before Abraham was born!" The Simple English Bible.

"Before Abraham came into existence, I have been." New World Translation of the Holy

John knew exactly what Jesus meant.
1 John 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God
John 8:30 I and the Father are one.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and was God.
John 10:33 For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy because thou
being a man makest thyself God
 

David69

Angel Of The North
what do muslims make of this... jesus: I send forth my angel... i am the root and offspring of david... we are one???

imo he is telling that david is the second coming! and jesus lives on through david and davids offspring!!!
So why do the christians and muslims see David the moshiach/messiah as the devil/false prophet???

cheers

david69
 

A-ManESL

Well-Known Member
what do muslims make of this... jesus: I send forth my angel... i am the root and offspring of david... we are one???

imo he is telling that david is the second coming! and jesus lives on through david and davids offspring!!!
So why do the christians and muslims see David the moshiach/messiah as the devil/false prophet???

cheers

david69

David(pbuh) is not a false Prophet in Islam. You might find this article relevant. It quotes various Quranic verses regarding David.
 

BadBeast

Active Member
"I'm not the Messiah"!

"Only the true Messiah denies his Divinity"

"What sort of choice does that give me then? All right then, I AM the Messiah"!

"He is the Messiah, He IS the Messiah"!
 
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