Prophet Muhammad did not marry a child

[loverofhumanity]

None of that is relevant.

Is this the one you refer to?

https://bahai-library.com/pdf/b/bab_nicolas_terry_proofs.pdf

 

[firedragon]

Is this the one you refer to?

https://bahai-library.com/pdf/b/bab_nicolas_terry_proofs.pdf

If that is an English translation, that's what it is.

oh. I think this should be it. Great.

 

[danieldemol]

"Jaariyathu Alabu" which means "a young girl at playful age". In the Fusha atthuraath, it would be around 10 in age. In arabic there are different words representing girls of different ages. You don't call a toddler for example as Jaariyah.

54th chapter was revealed according to the same tradition in 614. The marriage supposedly happened in 624. You can do the math.

In its note on indirect evidence of Aisha being an older age, the New World Encyclopedia states;

'Note: Muslim tradition generally says that Aisha was six years old when married to Muhammad, and that this marriage took place in 1 A.H. All of the above arguments are based on the hypothesis that —as reported by the original sources —the age at which Aisha was married is wrong, while the time at which she married (in the same sources) is correct.'

Source: Aisha - New World Encyclopedia

Can you see the problem? If the souces are not reliable on the age given they may not be reliable on the dates given either. There is a clear contradiction in the hadith, but to say they must be true about Aisha being 14 appears to be cherrypicking the part you want to be true.

I would say that if the same sources are suspect then Aishas age of marriage is indeterminate.

In my opinion.

 

[KWED]

"Jaariyathu Alabu" which means "a young girl at playful age". In the Fusha atthuraath, it would be around 10 in age. In arabic there are different words representing girls of different ages. You don't call a toddler for example as Jaariyah.

54th chapter was revealed according to the same tradition in 614. The marriage supposedly happened in 624. You can do the math.

So you admit that she was 10 (or there abouts) when they consummated their marriage,

 

[firedragon]

In its note on indirect evidence of Aisha being an older age, the New World Encyclopedia states;

'Note: Muslim tradition generally says that Aisha was six years old when married to Muhammad, and that this marriage took place in 1 A.H. All of the above arguments are based on the hypothesis that —as reported by the original sources —the age at which Aisha was married is wrong, while the time at which she married (in the same sources) is correct.'

Source: Aisha - New World Encyclopedia

Can you see the problem? If the souces are not reliable on the age given they may not be reliable on the dates given either. There is a clear contradiction in the hadith, but to say they must be true about Aisha being 14 appears to be cherrypicking the part you want to be true.

I would say that if the same sources are suspect then Aishas age of marriage is indeterminate.

In my opinion.

I didn't read any article. I just answered your question about the terminology used and the simple logic of it. But of course you were not interested in an answer to your own question. You didn't acknowledge it, refute it or even consider it. Funny it was your own question.

• Never-mind, are you saying that hadith is unreliable about the 54th chapter? Based on what?
• Or are you saying the time of Aisha's marriage in 624 is wrong? Based on what?
• Or are you saying the chapter 54 was revealed in a different year? Based on what?
• When did I cherry pick and say "this is absolutely reliable"?
• Why can you cherry pick and say one part is absolutely reliable to attempt at insulting Muhammed and others cannot?
• Why can't someone point a flaw in your own methodology you use to try and insult islam?
• And what's the methodology you used to authenticate the hadith that says Aisha was 9? Who narrated it? What were the circumstances?

 

[danieldemol]

I didn't read any article. I just answered your question about the terminology used and the simple logic of it. But of course you were not interested in an answer to your own question. You didn't acknowledge it, refute it or even consider it. Funny it was your own question.

• Never-mind, are you saying that hadith is unreliable about the 54th chapter? Based on what?
• Or are you saying the time of Aisha's marriage in 624 is wrong? Based on what?
• Or are you saying the chapter 54 was revealed in a different year? Based on what?
• When did I cherry pick and say "this is absolutely reliable"?
• Why can you cherry pick and say one part is absolutely reliable to attempt at insulting Muhammed and others cannot?
• Why can't someone point a flaw in your own methodology you use to try and insult islam?
• And what's the methodology you used to authenticate the hadith that says Aisha was 9? Who narrated it? What were the circumstances?

Sorry, I have a cold today, so you will find my concentration lacking. Apologies in advance.

I was looking for an article that calculated the age (due to head cold) and got hold of something else sort of unrelated.
Basically I'm not convinced that hadith are reliable in general.

But if we assume that the hadith is reliable about Surah 54, how do we know what age range Jaariyathu Alabu means? I would suggest that the way to determine it is by historical precedent. In other words if someone was 3-4 at the time and described themselves as Jaariyathu Alabu then we could say that 3-4 is the minimum age range for Jaariyathu Alabu. The only problem is I don't know of what the historical precedents are (if there are any, they may all just be hadith). Simply saying "about 10" seems at the face of it without further investigation to be sloppy scholarship.

As far as your other questions go
Why are the sources that say she was married in 1AH (approx 622AD according to Oxford Reference source: AH - Oxford Reference. ) less reliable than the sources that say 624?

I'm saying if it came from hadith how do we know what year Surah 54 was revealed in?

You did not say "this is absolutely reliable", but do you think it is probable? If so why?

I haven't said one part is absolutely reliable, nor have I attempted to insult Muhammad.

If you can point to a flaw in my methodology then point it out by all means, I haven't said you cannot (I suspect your persecution complex is shining through again).

I never authenticated the hadith that said Aisha was nine.

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

But if we assume that the hadith is reliable about Surah 54, how do we know what age range Jaariyathu Alabu means?

The meaning of the word is from the understanding of Fusha atthurath. I have already stated that in my first response to your question.

f someone was 3-4 at the time and described themselves as Jaariyathu Alabu

What you are asking is "if someone said teen age is 5 years old". It doesnt comply. If someone that daft is there in this world, he is either lying or psychologically hampered. Because ignorant people do not make such statements. For example, I don't know what the nuances are in words related to ages in lets say "Hebrew". So I am ignorant. Thus, I will not make such claims about another language since I am ignorant. Thus, if I do make such a claim, I am either lying or mental. Hope you understand.

I can see you would love the ages 3-4 to represent the hadith but that's nothing but a wish. If that is the age, the arabic word would be Thifl. Check any classical dictionary. You can check the Kithab alain. Maybe even some simplistic dictionary like ED Lane.

As far as your other questions go
Why are the sources that say she was married in 1AH (approx 622AD according to Oxford Reference source: AH - Oxford Reference. ) less reliable than the sources that say 624?

It was not about 1 AH. It was about the year Aisha married Muhammed. Okay. If you want, take it as 623. How old was she then IF she was around 10 in 614? I can see that you are trying to bring it down. How much can you bring it down purposefully?

I'm saying if it came from hadith how do we know what year Surah 54 was revealed in?

Very good. I will repeat what I said since you are not getting it. This is using the same standard. Your own sources that you try to use to insult Muhammed and Islam. The difference is you will use arbitrarily "because it says so". But I can give you the idea or the science behind it if you want. Why is it Sarih? If you want we can go there over and above it being an internal critique.

I haven't said one part is absolutely reliable, nor have I attempted to insult Muhammad.

If you can point to a flaw in my methodology then point it out by all means, I haven't said you cannot (I suspect your persecution complex is shining through again).

I never authenticated the hadith that said Aisha was nine.

It's the target audience of the argument. Not you personally.

BTW, you have no methodology.

 

[danieldemol]

@firedragon, are we attempting to find what is truthful or what is insulting? Because if we are trying to find what is truthful then truth is truth regardless of whether it insults anyone or not. Insult is utterly irrelevant and your attempt to bring in such fallacious reasoning to the discussion comes across as a giant red flag.

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

@firedragon, are we attempting to find what is truthful or what is insulting? Because if we are trying to find what is truthful then truth is truth regardless of whether it insults anyone or not. Insult is utterly irrelevant and your attempt to bring in such fallacious reasoning to the discussion comes across as a giant red flag.

In my opinion.

What do you mean insulting? You asked about your methodology. You have no methodology.

Even if someone is to authenticate ahadith, he has to follow some methodology. So what is your methodology? I have asked you several times and of course you will not and have not responded. Who narrated the hadith about Aisha, what were the circumstances, at least you should know these two things. That is at least some methodology.

You spoke of methodology. You have no methodology.

If you think that is insulting, I cannot help it.

And if there is a "fallacious reasoning" I have given right here, please state the fallacy "clearly" with evidence.

Thanks .

 

[danieldemol]

The meaning of the word is from the understanding of Fusha atthurath.

From whose understanding and what is Fusha Atthurath?

What you are asking is "if someone said teen age is 5 years old". It doesnt comply. If someone that daft is there in this world, he is either lying or psychologically hampered. Because ignorant people do not make such statements. For example, I don't know what the nuances are in words related to ages in lets say "Hebrew". So I am ignorant. Thus, I will not make such claims about another language since I am ignorant. Thus, if I do make such a claim, I am either lying or mental. Hope you understand.

I can see you would love the ages 3-4 to represent the hadith but that's nothing but a wish. If that is the age, the arabic word would be Thifl. Check any classical dictionary. You can check the Kithab alain. Maybe even some simplistic dictionary like ED Lane.

Well I can't find an online english translation of Kitab al-'Ayn, although it would be interesting to see that even though it was written in the eighth century. But I can find Sahih al-Bukhari #4993 online (from where the arabic text can be copied) and I can find lane's lexicon online. Only trouble is I can't read arabic, so pinpointing which words are Jaariyathu Alabu is difficult. Nontheless you can point them out for me so I can copy them across, so here they are;
Sahih al-Bukhari 4993 - Virtues of the Qur'an - كتاب فضائل القرآن - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)
Lane’s Lexicon - The Arabic Lexicon

It was not about 1 AH. It was about the year Aisha married Muhammed. Okay. If you want, take it as 623. How old was she then IF she was around 10 in 614? I can see that you are trying to bring it down. How much can you bring it down purposefully?

"About 10" suggests a range, I am trying to find out what the minimum possible age is but according to experts as opposed to random internet strangers.

Very good. I will repeat what I said since you are not getting it. This is using the same standard. Your own sources that you try to use to insult Muhammed and Islam. The difference is you will use arbitrarily "because it says so". But I can give you the idea or the science behind it if you want. Why is it Sarih? If you want we can go there over and above it being an internal critique.

This discussion should be about what is truth, not about what may or may not "insult Muhammed and Islam" That is your attempt at bringing in fallacy and adhominem.

Can you demonstrate that "Sarih" is a genuine science? I am trying to determine whether we can know if Muhammad married a 9-10 year old, not whether it is "Sarih", can you tell the difference?

BTW, you have no methodology.

I gave you the methodology of historical precedent, but I will still be interested to find if Lanes Lexicon agrees with you.

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

From whose understanding and what is Fusha Atthurath?

Fusha Atthuraath is the arabic of the Qur'anic period or what people refer to as Classical Arabic. Whose understanding? From Islamic scholarship. And I have given you a dictionary already.

Well I can't find an online english translation of Kitab al-'Ayn

Hmm. Maybe there are none.

Only trouble is I can't read arabic, so pinpointing which words are Jaariyathu Alabu is difficult. Nontheless you can point them out for me so I can copy them across, so here they are;
Sahih al-Bukhari 4993 - Virtues of the Qur'an - كتاب فضائل القرآن - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)
Lane’s Lexicon - The Arabic Lexicon

I have not looked at Lane's lexicon. If I find, I will give you the reference. But Lanes lexicon is quite new and pretty simplistic. And not necessarily classical arabic. So it might come in as irrelevant.

Let me see if I can get you the hadith and point where the word is mentioned.

Can you demonstrate that "Sarih" is a genuine science? I am trying to determine whether we can know if Muhammad married a 9-10 year old, not whether it is "Sarih", can you tell the difference?

Sarih is "with no problem". It is not only Sahih but also many other things including environment, context, who was the narrator and could they have had other circumstances to have a problem in the narration, etc etc. It's a generally known criticism in ilme ahadith.

I gave you the methodology of historical precedent, but I will still be interested to find if Lanes Lexicon agrees with you.

Read the dictionary I gave you. Lanes lexicon I have already addressed above.

 

[KWED]

Fusha Atthuraath is the arabic of the Qur'anic period or what people refer to as Classical Arabic. Whose understanding? From Islamic scholarship. And I have given you a dictionary already.



Hmm. Maybe there are none.



I have not looked at Lane's lexicon. If I find, I will give you the reference. But Lanes lexicon is quite new and pretty simplistic. And not necessarily classical arabic. So it might come in as irrelevant.

Let me see if I can get you the hadith and point where the word is mentioned. View attachment 64981


Sarih is "with no problem". It is not only Sahih but also many other things including environment, context, who was the narrator and could they have had other circumstances to have a problem in the narration, etc etc. It's a generally known criticism in ilme ahadith.



Read the dictionary I gave you. Lanes lexicon I have already addressed above.

You still have to deal with the massive elephant in the room...
The consensus amongst Islamic scholars who are far more knowledgeable in the Quran, hadith and Classical Arabic than you are - that Aisha was 6 at marriage and 9 at sex.
Your red herrings about what particular Arabic words may or may not mean are worthless in this context.

 

[danieldemol]

Fusha Atthuraath is the arabic of the Qur'anic period or what people refer to as Classical Arabic. Whose understanding? From Islamic scholarship. And I have given you a dictionary already.

Yes I believe you gave me an arabic dictionary Kitab al-'Ayn, I would have to ask an arabic expert what it says and then if he/she says something different to you I'm back to square one, but at least I'll try hunt around the internet and give it a go.

I have not looked at Lane's lexicon. If I find, I will give you the reference. But Lanes lexicon is quite new and pretty simplistic. And not necessarily classical arabic. So it might come in as irrelevant.

I think I may have found it. In a section on male slavery it (lanes lexicon) states;
'A male slave; like as جَارِيَةٌ is used as meaning “ a female slave: ” B3: and as meaning (tropical A hireling [or servant]. (Mgh.) غُلُومَةٌ and ↓ غُلُومِيَّةٌ (S, K) and ↓ غُلَامِيَّةٌ (K) The state, or condition, of such as is termed غُلَام: (S, K: *) the second is expl. by Mohammad Ibn-Habeeb as meaning the period from birth to the seventeenth year.'

Although I'm not sure if by "the second" is meant the part about "a female slave" or one of the other arabic squiggles listed. Lane's Lexicon is awfully confusing for someone without a basic understanding of arabic.

Let me see if I can get you the hadith and point where the word is mentioned. View attachment 64981

Thanks, just for my personal future reference it appears to be computer typed جارية

Sarih is "with no problem". It is not only Sahih but also many other things including environment, context, who was the narrator and could they have had other circumstances to have a problem in the narration, etc etc. It's a generally known criticism in ilme ahadith.

Ok

Read the dictionary I gave you. Lanes lexicon I have already addressed above.
View attachment 64981

I will try ask an arabic expert. Thanks

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

Yes I believe you gave me an arabic dictionary Kitab al-'Ayn, I would have to ask an arabic expert what it says and then if he/she says something different to you I'm back to square one, but at least I'll try hunt around the internet and give it a go.

Hmm. I understand.

I think I may have found it. In a section on male slavery it (lanes lexicon) states;
'A male slave; like as جَارِيَةٌ is used as meaning “ a female slave: ” B3: and as meaning (tropical A hireling [or servant]. (Mgh.) غُلُومَةٌ and ↓ غُلُومِيَّةٌ (S, K) and ↓ غُلَامِيَّةٌ (K) The state, or condition, of such as is termed غُلَام: (S, K: *) the second is expl. by Mohammad Ibn-Habeeb as meaning the period from birth to the seventeenth year.'

Although I'm not sure if by "the second" is meant the part about "a female slave" or one of the other arabic squiggles listed. Lane's Lexicon is awfully confusing for someone without a basic understanding of arabic.

That's not old arabic. It's a new development. And you are reading Ghulaameeyyah, not Jaariyah immediately after what ever this B3 stands for. Yet, I am impressed you found this, and you even found arabic text. I mean typed out arabic text. That's pretty great.

Jaariyah was used in some late literature directly to refer to a female slave. But that is not the meaning of the word. Anyway, this word Jaariyah was referred to slaves who had a child, but is not called a particular name apparently referred to as mother of the child. This was a Persian rendition the arabic word. For you to get into this now you will have to take Persian texts and get to another scholar.

Thanks, just for my personal future reference it appears to be computer typed جارية

Computer typed? Yes. That's correct. Even I don't know how to type on the computer. Not bad. Type out Al Abu after Jaariyah. You typed the first one correct. Alabu will be Alif, Lam (Al) + Ain, ba. Otherwise you will not understand any rendition to mean a younger girl. You will just see a woman and she could be of conceiving age which can range between puberty to an adult. Alabu makes it a playful age so it has to be in the younger range of that age group.

I will try ask an arabic expert. Thanks

Excellent.

 

[danieldemol]

Computer typed? Yes. That's correct. Even I don't know how to type on the computer. Not bad. Type out Al Abu after Jaariyah. You typed the first one correct. Alabu will be Alif, Lam (Al) + Ain, ba. Otherwise you will not understand any rendition to mean a younger girl. You will just see a woman and she could be of conceiving age which can range between puberty to an adult. Alabu makes it a playful age so it has to be in the younger range of that age group.

At the top of the page for Lane's Lexicon there is a small drop down menu near the search bar which says Arabic keyboard. Using your spelling and a bit of googling of arabic letters I got العب for Alabu. Not sure if its correct, but google translate tells me it means play, so I'm possibly in the ballpark.

In my opinion

 

[firedragon]

At the top of the page for Lane's Lexicon there is a small drop down menu near the search bar which says Arabic keyboard. Using your spelling and a bit of googling of arabic letters I got العب for Alabu. Not sure if its correct, but google translate tells me it means play, so I'm possibly in the ballpark.

In my opinion

Yes you are in the ball park.

 

[KWED]

You are so passionately pointing out the authenticity of these Ahadith that it seems like you believe in these Ahadith more than any Islamic scholars ever believed!

*sigh*
This is pointless if you are just going to repeat the same flawed claims that I have already corrected.
I do not believe sahih hadith are necessarily accurate and reliable - but the majority of Muslims do.
Your opinion on what Muslims might or should think is completely irrelevant on this issue.

Most Muslims don't think about Ahadith the way you do.

Of course they don't. They regard the sahih hadith as far more reliable and accurate than I do.
However, when there are multiple sahih hadith recording an event which does not stretch the bounds of credulity, there seems no reason to reject it as false, even if the contents are somewhat disagreeable by our 21st century moral standards.

They think of it as spare documents.

Nonsense. They consider them to be an essential element in Islam. you simply have no idea what you are talking about.

"The Qur'ān and the Sunnah have served as the primary sources of Islam. Together with the Qurʾān, the statements and actions of the Prophet ﷺ form the basis of Islamic law and theology. Despite their many theological and legal differences, Muslim sects have all drawn from these two primary sources". Are Hadith Necessary? An Examination of the Authority of Hadith in Islam | Yaqeen Institute for Islamic Research

"Hadith is integral to the Qur’an, since they are inseparably linked to each other. It is impossible to understand the Qur’an without reference to Hadith." What Is the Significance of Hadith in Islam? - IslamOnline

"The two fundamental sources of Islam are the Qur’an (the word of God) and the Sunnah (the example) of the Prophet" Store of Prophet's Legacy: Why Hadith is Important | About Islam

"Islam has two primary sources. First is the Qurʾān. The second source is the Prophet’s teachings. The Prophet’s teachings are called Sunna. The Sunna is found in texts called ḥadīth." What are Hadith?

"59:7 is a Qur’anic injunction to accept and follow what is narrated from the Messenger". Islam Question & Answer

No one (I know) believe in this particular Hadith regarding Aisha's age- the way you do.

It is not me who believes it. It is the consensus of Islamic scholars (as I have already shown).

Why would they? This is one man's story!

The Quran is literally "one man's story". Why would you believe that - especially as it contains stuff which is against what is possible in nature. The hadith in question do not, and there are multiple sources.

Life will get hard for you in the upcoming years - because you will find less and less of your beloved scholars supporting your claim!

That makes no sense.
Pretty much every scholar until a few decades ago accepted the hadith as authentic, and accepted that Muhammad married and had sex with Aisha when she was very young. That is a demonstrable fact (as I have shown, with references).
All those opinions cannot change. They are a lasting fact.
Of scholars currently alive, most accept the hadith and ages, so the number of scholars supporting the child marriage account will continue to increase.
Even if more scholars come to reject them, there will still be most who accept them (because Islam requires it - see above).
Therefore in upcoming years the number of scholars who are on record supporting Muhammad marrying Aisha when she was 6 will keep on increasing.
QED.
Of course, you will probably struggle to understand this concept.

 

[BrightShadow]

*sigh*
This is pointless if you are just going to repeat the same flawed claims that I have already corrected.
I do not believe sahih hadith are necessarily accurate and reliable - but the majority of Muslims do.
Your opinion on what Muslims might or should think is completely irrelevant on this issue.

Of course they don't. They regard the sahih hadith as far more reliable and accurate than I do.
However, when there are multiple sahih hadith recording an event which does not stretch the bounds of credulity, there seems no reason to reject it as false, even if the contents are somewhat disagreeable by our 21st century moral standards.

Nonsense. They consider them to be an essential element in Islam. you simply have no idea what you are talking about.

"The Qur'ān and the Sunnah have served as the primary sources of Islam. Together with the Qurʾān, the statements and actions of the Prophet ﷺ form the basis of Islamic law and theology. Despite their many theological and legal differences, Muslim sects have all drawn from these two primary sources". Are Hadith Necessary? An Examination of the Authority of Hadith in Islam | Yaqeen Institute for Islamic Research

"Hadith is integral to the Qur’an, since they are inseparably linked to each other. It is impossible to understand the Qur’an without reference to Hadith." What Is the Significance of Hadith in Islam? - IslamOnline

"The two fundamental sources of Islam are the Qur’an (the word of God) and the Sunnah (the example) of the Prophet" Store of Prophet's Legacy: Why Hadith is Important | About Islam

"Islam has two primary sources. First is the Qurʾān. The second source is the Prophet’s teachings. The Prophet’s teachings are called Sunna. The Sunna is found in texts called ḥadīth." What are Hadith?

"59:7 is a Qur’anic injunction to accept and follow what is narrated from the Messenger". Islam Question & Answer

It is not me who believes it. It is the consensus of Islamic scholars (as I have already shown).

The Quran is literally "one man's story". Why would you believe that - especially as it contains stuff which is against what is possible in nature. The hadith in question do not, and there are multiple sources.

That makes no sense.
Pretty much every scholar until a few decades ago accepted the hadith as authentic, and accepted that Muhammad married and had sex with Aisha when she was very young. That is a demonstrable fact (as I have shown, with references).
All those opinions cannot change. They are a lasting fact.
Of scholars currently alive, most accept the hadith and ages, so the number of scholars supporting the child marriage account will continue to increase.
Even if more scholars come to reject them, there will still be most who accept them (because Islam requires it - see above).
Therefore in upcoming years the number of scholars who are on record supporting Muhammad marrying Aisha when she was 6 will keep on increasing.
QED.
Of course, you will probably struggle to understand this concept.

At this point - you are like a broken record. It is digital age. Post something new - something of substance!

 

[KWED]

At this point - you are like a broken record. It is digital age. Post something new - something of substance!

Erm, you didn't notice all those new references to both the Quran and the sunnah being essential elements of Islam, thus refuting your claim that most Muslims regard the hadith as optional and mostly irrelevant?

Oh, you did notice them but couldn't think of a cogent response? Fair enough.

And there was the issue of you rejecting hadith for being "one man's story", yet accepting more fantastical claims in the Quran, despite it also being "just one man's story".
Care to address that?
No, thought not.

Plus my response to your irrational new argument that as time goes on, long-dead scholars will change their position.
Nothing? No? Hmm...

Also, I have to repeat my earlier refutations of your claims because you keep making those initial claims, even after I have shown them to be flawed.

 

[danieldemol]

I'm still trying to track down somone who can tell me what Jaariyathu Alabu means according to Kitab al Ayn (the eighth century arabic dictionary), however my preliminary investigations into the word Jariyah (young girl) may be of some use to the forum members who follow this thread, so I shall relate them.

First I asked in a learn arabic forum, "I'm trying to find out what the range of ages are for Jariyah in English." I got the reply in the form of a dictionary definition and it's accompanying explanation as follows;

'This dictionary definition is accurate:

الأمة صغيرة كانت أم كبيرة البنت الصغيرة التي لم تبلغ.

So a female slave of any age or a female who has not reached maturity.'

In light of a comment on this thread claiming that it is later works that used the word Jaariyah for a female slave I assumed this definition was from a modern arabic dictionary, but if modern arabic speaking people would consider it as a female who has not reached maturity then I think it unjustified to load me up with ad-hominem for considering it the same in post #347 just because I'm an english speaker.

I also found this interesting article at the Yaqeen Institute attempting to refute using the hadith the concept that Aisha was older than 3 at the time of the alleged revelation of Al Qamar (ie Quran: Surah 54) which I will copy an extract from and explain why I found it interesting: The Age of Aisha (ra): Rejecting Historical Revisionism and Modernist Presumptions | Yaqeen Institute for Islamic Research

The article says;

'The most indirect method of arriving at the conclusion that she was older involves understanding what ʿĀʾisha meant by jāriya. There is no specific age for a jāriya as the term is generally understood to refer to a youthful (fatiyya) girl.31 Thus, the best way to understand the word is to see how ʿĀʾisha used it in other statements. ʿĀʾisha said: “If a girl (jāriya) were to reach puberty at the age of nine, then she is a woman.”32 We learn two things from this statement. First, it was not uncommon for girls to reach puberty at the age of nine. Second, the maximum age of a jāriya would be eight if puberty was reached at nine according to ʿĀʾisha. The question is, what is the minimum age of a jāriya? Al-Mālikī clarifies Ibn Ḥajar’s statement saying: “Ibn Ḥajar mentions that ʿĀʾisha, may God be pleased with her, was born eight years before hijra. She would be three years old at the splitting of the moon, and it is permissible to call a three-year-old a jāriya.”33 From these statements we can estimate that the age of a jāriya can range from three to eight years old.'

The reason this was of interest to me for a couple of reasons. First because it appears to show Ibn Hajar and Al Maliki (both of whom may be assumed to be experts in classical arabic) as saying a Jariyah can be a three year old (demonstrating again that ad-hominem against me for considering this as an English speaking person was unjustified).

Second of all it was interesting to me because although I cannot say with any certainty that these hadith go back to Aisha, I believe I can justifiably say that these hadith were written in a similar time period since Tirmidhi was a student of Bukhari amongst others. So since the word Jariyah was recorded in the arabic of Bukhari/Tirmidhi, we have to know how they would have used it, and the answer from Tirmidhi's perspective is demonstrably that it was a maximum of 8 years of age. Therefore if anyone claims that the word Jariyah unambiguosly means 10 and claims it is incorrect to say it is lower they would be wrong on that.

In my opinion