Pros and cons of Catholicism.

[Spiderman]

Look within yourself to find the spirituality just right for you. Avoid focusing on anything that saddens you or robs you of energy. Renounce and reject those thoughts and temptations as soon as they arise. Do what gives you joy and peace.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Look within yourself to find the spirituality just right for you. Avoid focusing on anything that saddens you or robs you of energy. Renounce and reject those thoughts and temptations as soon as they arise. Do what gives you joy and peace.

Thanks. In DBT therapy, we learn not to denounce our thoughts but to recognize them as mere thoughts. We don't need to act on them or do anything with them, necessarily. They're just there. Remember that demonizing things just gives them more power over you. But, yes, we should not feed that which isn't good for us as in urges that are contrary to our good health.

 

[VioletVortex]

Pros:

*Their inclusion of Pagan aesthetics and rituals
*As you said, their stance of LGBT people

Cons:

*Their invasion and destruction of Rome in the third century
* Their invasion and destruction of Germany, also around the same time
*Their inclusion of Pagan aesthetics and rituals (attracting more Europeans to what I see as the wrong religion)
*Their views on sexual liberties
*Their mentality of hypocrisy, globalism, capitalism, and material nihilism

 

[Kenny]

I'm going to guess that you probably don't know what Jesus would want from me in that circumstance.

His Word and His Holy Spirit knows.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

His Word and His Holy Spirit knows.

Well, they didn't tell me they had a problem with it, so.

 

[Kenny]

Sorry @Saint Frankenstein have to address this.

If Frank went back to Christ and Frank is a male not female, how do you choose to be someone you already are? If god created everyone who they are, and as a male, Frank transitioned physically as such, how is he doing what he "wants" when he is already male to begin with?

What do you mean by doing as "he wants"?
Have you researched what gender dysphoria actually is?

Medical books seem to treat gender dysphoria as an illness; and, how and why would you consider a person suffering through that and wanting to be how god created him to be against the bible?

That's (not you) just a horrible thing to say well-intentioned or not.

Yes, I understand what gender dysphoria is. But I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said.

Certainly God did not create anyone to be against the Bible.

And what have I said that is horrible? I would say the same thing for me and for the rest of the world. When one follows Jesus, one does what He would like us to do and not just what we want to do. Heaven knows that I use to do what I wanted to do.

So, nothing but love on this side.

 

[Kenny]

Well, they didn't tell me they had a problem with it, so.

So, follow Him, and let His word transform your life.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Sorry @Saint Frankenstein have to address this.

If Frank went back to Christ and Frank is a male not female, how do you choose to be someone you already are? If god created everyone who they are, and as a male, Frank transitioned physically as such, how is he doing what he "wants" when he is already male to begin with?

What do you mean by doing as "he wants"?
Have you researched what gender dysphoria actually is?

Medical books seem to treat gender dysphoria as an illness; and, how and why would you consider a person suffering through that and wanting to be how god created him to be against the bible?

That's (not you) just a horrible thing to say well-intentioned or not.

That's a valid viewpoint. I would ask if one's faith is based on the providence of the Catholic church's God of worship.

A legitimate question would be in asking as to why one is unsatisfied with and at odds with the gender that God has bestowed on that person?

No small wonder the Catholics see it as wrong and ill by which transgenderism is essentally a direct challenge made towards God's decision to make one male or female at birth. Its a form of rebellion against God. If I was Catholic, that's how I would view things.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Frank is destraught because he doesn't know whether he should go back to the Church or not. One of the cons is that the Church doesn't accept him for who he is as a transgender person. Not as in not welcoming but if he were to say want to be a priest or marry, he'd be denied only because of his birth certificate. It's not a choice. Just the Church doesn't recognize someone who is a male unless they have male genitalia.

This is what you said:

So transitioning isn't about one transitioning about who I think I want to be or adapting scripture to what I want but rather being cleansed by His Word and transitioning what I was into the image of Christ.

Saint: "Okay, but I don't see what that has to do with medically and socially transitioning as a transsexual."​

Because one is doing what one wants to do vs what one should do according to what Jesus wants. Much like Adam when he did what he wanted to do vs what God asked him to do.

Maybe you read about gender dysphoria, but do you know what it actually is? Not from a medical point of view (though that helps) but from a person's identity and testimony point of view. Who that person is.

How is Frank doing what he wants to do? Well-intentioned or not, either you don't know what gender dysphoria is or you do but you believe that his wanting to transition has something to do with what he wants to do as if it were a leisure or a sin against god. Comparing it to Adam is a good example of your point.

My point is god created him as a male. That is who he is as a person. When he was born, his gender and sex did not align with each other. What he wants to do (if you like) is to align his sex to match his gender.

How you put it is like choosing to sin. That is a horrible thing to say to someone going through gender dysphoria and wanting to completely be who he is as a male-which is not a choice.

How is that going against scripture and why compare it as if it were a choice he made to sin?​

HOWEVER, if one isn't a follower of Jesus, then you are free to find what suits your personal desires. You certainly have that freedom.

Gender disphoria isn't an action nor does it have to do with personal desires. I can speak of myself as an example better. Homosexuality (attracted-mentally, physically, spiritually to same sex) is not an action but an attraction. Physical desires just as straight people are a part of it but if I were suffering from social stigma and decided to be with a male (to please people) that choice is not a sin no more than Frank wanting to align his sex with his gender by making a choice to transition. However, in my case, I have no need to be with a male. Christians call who I am a sin; and, after awhile, I don't care. However, in Frank's case it is more complicated than that and Christianity and the Bible doesn't speak of transgender to even form an opinion about it being a sin. That, and what is the sin of being transgender anyway?

Yes, I understand what gender dysphoria is. But I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said.

You're associating gender dysphoria with a choice someone wants to do not something someone feels they have to do. You're associating needing to change one's sex to match their gender identity (transitioning) with physical desires against god. It's a total insult well-intentioned or not.

And what have I said that is horrible? I would say the same thing for me and for the rest of the world. When one follows Jesus, one does what He would like us to do and not just what we want to do. Heaven knows that I use to do what I wanted to do.

That's the problem. If Frank went back to the Church, he would be doing what Christ wants him to do and aligning his sex with his gender identity isn't a physical desire but something he needs to do because without the alignment, I'm assuming it's like being torn in two. Your body feels one way, looks one way, but you identity (not choose to identity) as someone else. Transitioning is a very personal experience and instead of relating it to physical desires and choices (do what one wants) understand the reasoning behind it and scripture does not mention it regardless.

The issue is that the Church doesn't accept transgender individuals who want to marry or be a priest because they don't go from their gender identity but by their sex.

Your comment has nothing to do with Frank's problem with the Church and helping with solutions or support about it when it comes to this specifically.

This is as close as I can understand transgender to explain how your comment was inappropriate. Other than that, that's like saying I have the choice to go with my physical desires all because I am a gay woman. Not choose to be. Not dating. Nothing like that. This is WHO I am. Same as Frank and everyone else suffering as a LGBTQ+ persons with similar experiences. You're associating actions with WHO someone is.

How do you change yourself to be who you are when you are that person in the beginning? If you're male, how do you change yourself to be male and go with your own desire to be one, when you have been male sense birth?

That's my question.​

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's a valid viewpoint. I would ask if one's faith is based on the providence of the Catholic church's God of worship.

A legitimate question would be in asking as to why one is unsatisfied with and at odds with the gender that God has bestowed on that person?

No small wonder the Catholics see it as wrong and ill by which transgenderism is essentally a direct challenge made towards God's decision to make one male or female at birth. Its a form of rebellion against God. If I was Catholic, that's how I would view things.

Well, Catholics are softening up on how they see the LGBT community. Though, with transgender, I think it's more they go with their sex. Even if they accept someone is male though their sex is female, they will always revert back to one's assigned sex rather than their gender identity.

Historically, that makes sense given how the Church sees male and female roles. Spiritually, I don't see how sex is an issue when everyone is supposed to be one in christ (no male/female, jew/gentile, etc/etc)

I think honestly they just don't believe a person can be male in a female's body. If the Catholic Church understood what that means without associating it to an illness of some sort, they'd have a better stance on the issue. I don't think the doctrine will change but hopefully, the Church acceptance as a whole would.

 

[von bek]

Frank,

Check out Orphism. I think it will be of great interest to you...

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I don't think that is the question. A deeper question is "Do I want to be a follower of Jesus".

It really shouldn't be a problem. Matt 19:12 says that Jesus noted there some men without their junk for various reasons, and we should get over it. I think that pretty much sums it up, don't you?

At this point, it just sounds like you are saying (IMO) "I want to find a faith that simply matches my personal desires".

Maybe it's about wanting to find a religion that isn't remarkably hypocritical?

I mean, the bible bans cross-dressing, but let's be honest: they ALL wore essentially what looked like nightgowns.

After all, the ancient Greeks were quite the syncretists in the first place.

And Christianity and Judaism both owe a lot to the Greeks anyway

At any rate, see it as I see myself: You were in grade school, and now you've realized it's time to graduate and live an adult life.

Certainly God did not create anyone to be against the Bible.

There are even books of the bible which critique other books of the bible. Ruth and Job are two just off the top of my head. Then you have Paul vs the Apostles, etc.

A legitimate question would be in asking as to why one is unsatisfied with and at odds with the gender that God has bestowed on that person?

It's not like God has never screwed up someone, though.

Just the Church doesn't recognize someone who is a male unless they have male genitalia.

Which is also unfair to cis men who for whatever reason are missing a few body parts.

However, in my case, I have no need to be with a male

I don't see a need for any of the genders.

Spiritually, I don't see how sex is an issue when everyone is supposed to be one in christ (no male/female, jew/gentile, etc/etc)

AMEN!

The Church: Jesus says we're all equal.

Except for you.

And you.

Ugh, are you still here?

And you... etc.

 

[omega2xx]

So lately I've been weighing out whether I wish to stay Catholic or not. There's things I love about it and things I don't like about it.

I'll start with the cons (to me):

- The Church's stance on LGBT people. I'm a trans man and identity as queer/pansexual. I have transitioned. Since I have transitioned, the Vatican's official line would be that I'm living a lie, perverting God's plan and that I can't even be a Godparent, let alone get married. So I can't really be a full member of the Church. I am also not really out at church and the thought is a bit daunting to me.
- Sexual morality. I think the Vatican's sexual morality is outdated and unrealistic. I don't think things like masturbation, pornography, pre-martial sex or even sex work are necessarily mortal sins. I think things like artificial birth control and IVF are perfectly acceptable and that abortion is a sad necessity in some cases (health, rape, etc.).
- The death penalty. I agree with capital punishment at least in principle. Some people can't be rehabilitated, such as full-blown psychopaths.
- The male-only clergy. I think women should be allowed to be part of the clergy.
- Corruption in the Church.
- Big focus on suffering and sin, to the point that it can be quite depressing.

Pros (to me):

- Community. It's nice to have churches that you can go easily go to worship at. (Although this is tempered by me not being a full member of the community, as mentioned above.)
- The Trinity. I find it a very beautiful and unique theology.
- The Communion of Saints.
- Holy icons and relics.
- The vast history and scale of the Church.
- Mysticism.

There's also the fact that I continue to be quite drawn to Paganism (although I don't really like that word), especially Hellenic religion (I'm feeling quite drawn to Zeus lately). I do not wish to become a Protestant and Orthodoxy has much of the same problems. Episcopalianism is a possible choice, but I don't know.

The Catholic church is only expressing what God says. They did not originate any theology.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So, follow Him, and let His word transform your life.

I can't be transformed into something I'm not. Or rather, I don't agree with the idea of being transformed into something other than I am.

 

[metis]

I don't think it's likely that the vast majority of us will ever find a religion or denomination that fits 100% with what we may believe. There's an old saying that "if two people fully agree on everything, then only one of them is actually doing the thinking".

In most religions and denominations, there's room for dissent, plus we also need to realize that we are not always going to have our way whereas the religion or denomination must supposedly conform to what we may believe.

Therefore, the RCC has its teachings, but every Catholic has not only the right, but the obligation, to go in the direction of where their conscience takes them. A Catholic book I've recommended before is "Let Your (Informed) Conscience Be Your Guide", with it's main point being to study the Church's teachings and preferably go in that direction, but if you honestly believe it's wrong or doesn't apply to you, then you have the right to follow your own informed conscience. After all, it is you who will be judged-- not the Church.

 

[Aberamentho]

So lately I've been weighing out whether I wish to stay Catholic or not. There's things I love about it and things I don't like about it.

I'll start with the cons (to me):

- The Church's stance on LGBT people. I'm a trans man and identity as queer/pansexual. I have transitioned. Since I have transitioned, the Vatican's official line would be that I'm living a lie, perverting God's plan and that I can't even be a Godparent, let alone get married. So I can't really be a full member of the Church. I am also not really out at church and the thought is a bit daunting to me.
- Sexual morality. I think the Vatican's sexual morality is outdated and unrealistic. I don't think things like masturbation, pornography, pre-martial sex or even sex work are necessarily mortal sins. I think things like artificial birth control and IVF are perfectly acceptable and that abortion is a sad necessity in some cases (health, rape, etc.).
- The death penalty. I agree with capital punishment at least in principle. Some people can't be rehabilitated, such as full-blown psychopaths.
- The male-only clergy. I think women should be allowed to be part of the clergy.
- Corruption in the Church.
- Big focus on suffering and sin, to the point that it can be quite depressing.

Pros (to me):

- Community. It's nice to have churches that you can go easily go to worship at. (Although this is tempered by me not being a full member of the community, as mentioned above.)
- The Trinity. I find it a very beautiful and unique theology.
- The Communion of Saints.
- Holy icons and relics.
- The vast history and scale of the Church.
- Mysticism.

There's also the fact that I continue to be quite drawn to Paganism (although I don't really like that word), especially Hellenic religion (I'm feeling quite drawn to Zeus lately). I do not wish to become a Protestant and Orthodoxy has much of the same problems. Episcopalianism is a possible choice, but I don't know.

The good thing for you is the Catholic, meaning, "Universal" Church is appealing to pagans (I am also not a fan of the word unless it properly is used to describe nature worshipping) as designed, as much as people who believe in God only as God, Monotheists.

Jesus (pbwh) said "Let he who is without sin..." You know the rest. The Catholic Church has as many sins as there are stones in Europe, such to the point they are mountains that can't be thrown. Inquisition, Crusades, slandering everything under the sun until finally at Vatican 2 they decided to declare that the Universal Church no longer sees Jews and Muslims as enemies (not en massed anyway, certainly they are not fans of Zionism or the atrocities commited by the Zionists against the Palestinians, as they are victims too of Sabbatean-Frankist infiltration, as is Islam through the Turkish Sabbatean Donmeh (false converts to Islam who remained secret heretical Jews loyal to Shabbatai Svi, pseudo-messiah) and Masonic Muslim Brotherhood, the (anti) Muslim arm of Freemasonry, loyal to Zionism.

Catholicism is about forgiveness, even forgiving someone who won't forgive you, even though many priests are gay, forgive them, what else can you do?

I am not assuming anything about you, I just wanted to tell an interesting fact that is little known.

While Islam is far from accepting of homosexuality, Iran, of all nations is the only predominantly Muslim nation to allow gender reassignment surgery, since it is not forbidden in the Qur'an.

This is not a big help to gay men who want to remain men, and many have had the surgery just to get around the anti homosexual laws, at a big price!

I don't know how that relates to this exactly but I thought I would share it.

Regardless, "all good men are free."

Philo Judaeus

And Paradise is the gift of God to the Righteous. I think He is the only one who you have to answer to, Jesus never said a word about homo erotic behavior so I would say, whatever you are worried about, it is not related to anything that the Messiah said.

And honestly, even as a person of faith who believes that God has made natural laws that ought to be followed, one of those natural laws is free-will, the freedom to desire and obtain that which is desired, which God obviously knew would lead to what it does.

Another natural law is Mercy, Compassion, and am certain God is more concerned with that than their polar opposites.

Let your God-given conscience be the compass it was meant to be and don't ever be decieved by the words of men, many of who are hypocrites.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No small wonder the Catholics see it as wrong and ill by which transgenderism is essentally a direct challenge made towards God's decision to make one male or female at birth. Its a form of rebellion against God. If I was Catholic, that's how I would view things.

The issue with the Church and a lot of people, myself included, don't understand what it means to be "male" or "female" and a lot of us associate gender identity with sex. It's almost asking a straight person what does he feel like to be straight. I don't know what that "feels like" but to alienate someone because of it is just, well, wrong.

I want to be more involved with the LGBTQ community (doing so at my school and a local group I try to go to sometimes), educate, and support a lot of misconceptions about the community. However, with the Church, I honestly don't feel they are going to change.

I do believe that one can be part of the body of Christ as Christ doesn't differentiate who is part of the body based on gender, sex, nationality, and so forth. I just wish there were other options Frank can choose from given the Church's stance on the issue which I totally disagree with.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

AMEN!

I never got an Amen before Thanks!

 

[viole]

So lately I've been weighing out whether I wish to stay Catholic or not. There's things I love about it and things I don't like about it.

I'll start with the cons (to me):

- The Church's stance on LGBT people. I'm a trans man and identity as queer/pansexual. I have transitioned. Since I have transitioned, the Vatican's official line would be that I'm living a lie, perverting God's plan and that I can't even be a Godparent, let alone get married. So I can't really be a full member of the Church. I am also not really out at church and the thought is a bit daunting to me.
- Sexual morality. I think the Vatican's sexual morality is outdated and unrealistic. I don't think things like masturbation, pornography, pre-martial sex or even sex work are necessarily mortal sins. I think things like artificial birth control and IVF are perfectly acceptable and that abortion is a sad necessity in some cases (health, rape, etc.).
- The death penalty. I agree with capital punishment at least in principle. Some people can't be rehabilitated, such as full-blown psychopaths.
- The male-only clergy. I think women should be allowed to be part of the clergy.
- Corruption in the Church.
- Big focus on suffering and sin, to the point that it can be quite depressing.

Pros (to me):

- Community. It's nice to have churches that you can go easily go to worship at. (Although this is tempered by me not being a full member of the community, as mentioned above.)
- The Trinity. I find it a very beautiful and unique theology.
- The Communion of Saints.
- Holy icons and relics.
- The vast history and scale of the Church.
- Mysticism.

There's also the fact that I continue to be quite drawn to Paganism (although I don't really like that word), especially Hellenic religion (I'm feeling quite drawn to Zeus lately). I do not wish to become a Protestant and Orthodoxy has much of the same problems. Episcopalianism is a possible choice, but I don't know.

Do you choose metaphysical beliefs based on what you agree with?

Ciao

- viole

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

So, follow Him, and let His word transform your life.

Ask yourself: why are you saying this? By you doing the urging, you're not really letting the will of your god be done. No one would be "doing it right" unless they're in your religion, even if that's not what their conscience - as you believe, your god - is telling them to do. So are you saying this for them, or for you?

The good thing for you is the Catholic, meaning, "Universal" Church is appealing to pagans (I am also not a fan of the word unless it properly is used to describe nature worshipping) as designed,

No, it's... really not. Mimicry might be the most sincere form of flattery to some, but to others is just empty pretending.