Protection of Cows

[Jainarayan]

... this includes eggs.
We do this as all sentient life contain the same jivatma, therefore eating living beings is eating the equal of ourselves.

Unfertilized eggs are not, nor ever will be sentient beings, or jivatma. They are a biological by-product of the existence of chickens and other female birds. Hens of any bird species will lay eggs with or without the presence of a male. The issue is not the egg itself; exploiting the chicken and inducing it to lay more eggs than it naturally would is the issue. Dairy products should then be avoided too because the cow is exploited to produce more milk than she naturally would.

If one does not eat eggs, it should be for the reason of harm to the chicken because of the way they are raised and treated, not to a biological by-product that is not nor ever will be alive. We have to keep the facts in mind and set our sights properly. What to eat or what not to eat is a person's choice and should not be foisted upon another by referring to this scripture or that guru or such, or saying that one will come back as such-and-such animal they ate. That is also himsa to another person. We can't be selectively dharmic.

 

[Vinayaka]

Most Hindu vegetarians are lacto-veg, but not ovo-veg. But of course it's your choice.

 

[Chakra]

Slightly off topic - slaughterhouses don't simply slaughter cattle. They also slaughter buffalo, camels, goat and sheep.

If you close all the slaughterhouses in a country, where does the excess cattle go? We cannot just let it go to pasture, we don't have enough and it will die. Perhaps it would be best to phase them out through the limitation of beef cattle being bred? So that farmers may only breed a certain amount, with each year the quota becoming less and less until no more cattle may be bred for meat purposes? But then it is sure that they will be bred for their leather and certain other things and... well, it's a waste to breed anything just for its skin. If its meat can go to feed the hungry, shouldn't it? So long as it is treated as humanely as absolutely possible?

In Australia cattle are not allowed to killed just for the skin but in other countries it is rampant. If you are selling the skin here you better be selling the meat too.

Personally, I'm all for the phasing out of cattle farming. It's detrimental to the environment and the amount of cattle we bred for meat and leather are a major contributor to global warming.

Consider, also, that much of the world's population is actually lactose intolerant... perhaps we could also phase out the dairy industry too, from which we get a nice portion of our meat (at least in Australia).

Namaste,

You are right in the topic that cattle are forcebred and if farmers breed them less, then the cow population will be stabilized.

I have heard that you can make shoes that look like leather shoes, but are NOT made from cow skin. So there is no need for leather there.

One pound of beef will need about 14 pounds of wheat to produce. One pound of beef can feed maybe, 2 people. 14 pounds of wheat can feed 50. That is why most food relief organization only use vegetarian food. One of the president had said that you feed 20 to 30 times more people using veg food than meat.
Regards

 

[Vinayaka]

Meat production, and in particular beef, is the most inefficient agriculture there is.

 

[Jainarayan]

That's the reason beef is not widely used in Chinese cooking, but pork, chicken and duck are. Beef cattle require too much land, which China cannot spare for beef cattle. I think it's something like only 20% of the land in China is arable. Pigs, ducks and chickens will forage for just about anything anywhere, and so are more efficient to raise.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think a lot of it had to do with the lack of refrigeration originally. The smaller animals are one or two meals. Unfortunately, China's beef consumption is increasing dramatically.

 

[Chakra]

I think a lot of it had to do with the lack of refrigeration originally. The smaller animals are one or two meals. Unfortunately, China's beef consumption is increasing dramatically.

And so is the consumption of cats in dogs in China...

 

[Vinayaka]

And so is the consumption of cats in dogs in China...

It's so easy to be a vegetarian, and stuff like this makes it even easier.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram jainarayan

Unfertilized eggs are not, nor ever will be sentient beings, or jivatma. They are a biological by-product of the existence of chickens and other female birds. Hens of any bird species will lay eggs with or without the presence of a male. The issue is not the egg itself; exploiting the chicken and inducing it to lay more eggs than it naturally would is the issue. Dairy products should then be avoided too because the cow is exploited to produce more milk than she naturally would.

please consider that it is not natural for the hen and male birds to be seperated therefore under natural circumstances one could not know if the egg had been firtilised or not this is why for centurys the egg has not been eaten because one might be taking un born life , ...we do not feel that we have the right to do this .

it is only recently that the chicken has been seperated solely for the purpose of egg production , this practice is also barbaric as it treats an animal as a slave , not allowing it to live a natural life just so that its captor may have eggs .

personaly I canot condone this in just the same way (as most of you know) that I do not condone modern methods of dairy farming .

If one does not eat eggs, it should be for the reason of harm to the chicken because of the way they are raised and treated, not to a biological by-product that is not nor ever will be alive. We have to keep the facts in mind and set our sights properly. What to eat or what not to eat is a person's choice and should not be foisted upon another by referring to this scripture or that guru or such, or saying that one will come back as such-and-such animal they ate. That is also himsa to another person. We can't be selectively dharmic.

as explained a pure vegetarian does not eat eggs and have not done so for many many more centuries than modern fatming methods have existed , therefore we canot reajust the reasoning to suit our own sencibilities .

under natural circumstances the egg may well be alive , that is enough reason not to eat it .

yes it is anyones choice to eat what they will , but if they wish to follow a particular sampradaya which prohibits meat and egg eating then that is what their shastra and their guru recomends so that is what they do....and as far as I am concerned all glories to them for upholding these principles .

and as far as taking birth as an animal , ....prehaps you have never read ....



Srimad Bhagavatam, Canto 11, chapter 5, verse 14 .......'' Those who are ignorant of the absolute truth and believe they are virtuous although wicked and arrogant who kill animals without any feeling of remorse or fear of punishment are devoured by those very same animals in their next birth.

in otherwords are born as helpless animalls who will inturn be devoured !



Mahabharata, Anusasana-parva, 115.43 -116.45 .........'' That wretch among men who pretending to follow the path of righteousness prescribed in the Vedas, would kill living creatures out of greed of flesh would certainly go to hellish regions.''



Sri Caitanya Caritamrita adi lila, chapter 17 verse 166 ... Caitanya Mahaprabhu confirms .....

go-ange yata loma tata sahasra vatsara
go-vadhi raurava-madhye pace nirantar
Cow killers and cow eaters are condemned to rot in hell for as many thousands of years as there are for each hair on the body of every cow they eat from.


so please consider what is hell ? .... birth as an animal that is rearred for slaughter , ...this is the hell the cow killer is born into .

you may eat what you wish , but I agree , ... you must be prepaired to face the consequences !

 

[Chakra]

Unfertilized eggs are not, nor ever will be sentient beings, or jivatma. They are a biological by-product of the existence of chickens and other female birds. Hens of any bird species will lay eggs with or without the presence of a male. The issue is not the egg itself; exploiting the chicken and inducing it to lay more eggs than it naturally would is the issue. Dairy products should then be avoided too because the cow is exploited to produce more milk than she naturally would.

If one does not eat eggs, it should be for the reason of harm to the chicken because of the way they are raised and treated, not to a biological by-product that is not nor ever will be alive. We have to keep the facts in mind and set our sights properly. What to eat or what not to eat is a person's choice and should not be foisted upon another by referring to this scripture or that guru or such, or saying that one will come back as such-and-such animal they ate. That is also himsa to another person. We can't be selectively dharmic.

Namaste,
I once heard that cows make 3 times more milk than is necessary to feed their calves. Is this true? It was a while back when I heard of this, and since you know more about this, could you please inform me?

And I totally agree with the egg thing. They are not sentient beings, but they are almost like a waste of the hen. Unfertilized eggs are just like hen periods, are they not? I do not understand why people would want to eat such things... (Pardon my language).
Regards

 

[Vinayaka]

Namaste,
I once heard that cows make 3 times more milk than is necessary to feed their calves. Is this true? It was a while back when I heard of this, and since you know more about this, could you please inform me?

I was raised on a mixed farm, and we milked anywhere up to 6 cows at a time. After the calves got weaned, we fed them from buckets after milking, and although the ratio varied, it was around half. The unknown side to all this is that the amount of tugging (appetite, naturally) also determines milk production. Lots of sucking will cause milk producing hormones to react more, and you get more milk. So, left alone with the calf, the mother cow would naturally balance out in a few days to giving just the right amount that the calf needs.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaeam axlyz ji

And I totally agree with the egg thing. They are not sentient beings, but they are almost like a waste of the egg. Unfertilized eggs are just like hen periods, are they not? I do not understand why people would want to eat such things... (Pardon my language).
Regards

the point I was trying to make is that it is totaly un natural to seperate the hen form the males , therefore under natural conditions we canot know which egg is fertilised and which is not , in which case one could be taling a fretilised egg which is a living being from the point of fertilisation , therefore it is avoided .

and as you rightly say even if it is not fertilised , it is as you say , ..''a hens ....'' ... so who would want to eat such a thing ???

 

[Jainarayan]

namaskaram jainarayan



please consider that it is not natural for the hen and male birds to be seperated therefore under natural circumstances one could not know if the egg had been firtilised or not this is why for centurys the egg has not been eaten because one might be taking un born life , ...we do not feel that we have the right to do this .

it is only recently that the chicken has been seperated solely for the purpose of egg production , this practice is also barbaric as it treats an animal as a slave , not allowing it to live a natural life just so that its captor may have eggs .

I know... that's exactly my point. It is the chickens whose welfare we should be fighting for, not whether an egg is a living thing or not (it's not). If there are no exploited and abused chickens, the egg question becomes a non-issue. My further point is that we are worrying about the pennies and not the dollars, to use an old expression: we're worrying about the eggs and not the chickens!

and as far as taking birth as an animal , ....prehaps you have never read ....



Srimad Bhagavatam, Canto 11, chapter 5, verse 14 .......'' Those who are ignorant of the absolute truth and believe they are virtuous although wicked and arrogant who kill animals without any feeling of remorse or fear of punishment are devoured by those very same animals in their next birth....

And that is further my very point... people are free to read scriptures themselves, and do what they will. It's unnecessary for other people to point out to them what the scriptures say. In blunt terms, shove it in other people's faces. To say it's one's duty to do this makes us no better than another religious group.

I'm going to quote someone whose name I will not mention at the risk of causing ruffled feathers (no pun intended)... "Judge not so you are not judged; for how you judge, you too will be judged. How can you remove something from another person's eye, when you yourself cannot see clearly? Clear up your own vision, then you will be able to remove something from another person's eye". In simple words, let's weed our own gardens before we tell other people how to weed theirs.

 

[Jainarayan]

Namaste,
I once heard that cows make 3 times more milk than is necessary to feed their calves. Is this true? It was a while back when I heard of this, and since you know more about this, could you please inform me?

I don't know about that. I doubt that any organism would expend more energy than was absolutely necessary for itself or its offspring. Commercial dairy cows are artificially kept lactating to produce milk.

And I totally agree with the egg thing. They are not sentient beings, but they are almost like a waste of the egg. Unfertilized eggs are just like hen periods, are they not? I do not understand why people would want to eat such things... (Pardon my language).
Regards

Sometimes it's a matter of survival. It certainly was when humans were evolving, and it is still true for many primitive societies today. But why do 21st century developed countries consume eggs? Personal choice. But again, it's no different than the exploitation of dairy cows, to keep them lactating to produce milk for our consumption: ghee, yogurt, curds, milk for abhishekams. These are things I've pointed out many times in the past, the point being that unless and until we can do something about these things, we really need to get off our high horses saying how badly cows are treated, yet still use their milk. We can't have our cake and eat it too, as the saying goes... we can't wring our hands and complain about the plight of dairy cattle, yet buy milk and milk products by the pound. At the risk of being harsh, it's hypocritical. Because if we're not part of the solution, we're part of the problem.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram jai ji

I know... that's exactly my point. It is the chickens whose welfare we should be fighting for, not whether an egg is a living thing or not (it's not). If there are no exploited and abused chickens, the egg question becomes a non-issue. My further point is that we are worrying about the pennies and not the dollars, to use an old expression: we're worrying about the eggs and not the chickens!

I think prehaps we are speaking at cross purposes here , .....

from your previous post it appeared that you were supporting the eating if eggs ?

my point is merely that ....

If everyone followed the pure vegetarian diet there would be no need to worry about the chickens welfare. if no one ate the egg there would be no exploitation and the chicken would be left to perform its natural functions un uniterfered with , ...

which still leaves the question as to why pure vegetarians dont eat eggs , which is because the egg is a part of the reproductive system of the chicken and under natural circumstances with out us inforcing captivity , the egg would naturaly be fertilised trerfore from conception containing a jiva , ...

I canot speak for other vaisnavas but Gaudiya vaisnavas dont eat Jivas !
if no one ate eggs the issue of keeping a chicken in captivity just to stop its egg being fertilised would not be an issue .

you canot have an ahimsa egg !

And that is further my very point... people are free to read scriptures themselves, and do what they will. It's unnecessary for other people to point out to them what the scriptures say. In blunt terms, shove it in other people's faces. To say it's one's duty to do this makes us no better than another religious group.

as far as I am concerned this question of eggs is off topic but seeing as it has come up and there was some confusion as to why pure vegetarians dont eat eggs I was simply presenting the facts , it is not my opinion .

I am sorry if your sencibilities are hurt by the truth , but sometimes the blunt terms are nececary .

I'm going to quote someone whose name I will not mention at the risk of causing ruffled feathers (no pun intended)... "Judge not so you are not judged; for how you judge, you too will be judged. How can you remove something from another person's eye, when you yourself cannot see clearly? Clear up your own vision, then you will be able to remove something from another person's eye". In simple words, let's weed our own gardens before we tell other people how to weed theirs.

prehaps another quote is also applicable , ....''thou shalt not kill'' ....

....no one here is judging , simply presenting facts , you may make your own judgements and apply within your own life if you so please , ...



How ever seeing as this thread is about Cow protection , .... you can have ahimsa milk , and I apaud Narendra Modi for the steps he is taking to promote cow protection ...

Narendra Modi ki jai !

 

[ratikala]

I'm orthodox. Hindus who can't recognise ahimsa for what it is deserve to pay more.

jai jai vinayaka ji ,

thank you thank you you have made me laugh ,

I needed to laugh , I was feeling very depressed over this subject

A vegetarian diet is a lot cheaper, better for the environment, and in accordance with ahimsa. It's too each his own though.

I agree , each to his own , but I pray that more people addopt vegetarianism as it has so many benifits not only as you rightly say it is better for the enviroment , it is also better for mankind we all know that meat production is very wastefull of recources and if there were more vegetarians there would be more food to go around , therefore Ahimsa has many levels .

Remember, we can still eat dairy, and if the cows get better treatment the dairy industry will boom.

and if Modi can promote cow protection these new goshalas will provide true Ahimsa milk , then I will be very happy .

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Axlyz ji

Yes, vegetarian diet is the diet of the Vedas. However, I'm a Vegan atm solely because of the brutality of the dairy industry in the USA. Is there a really bad dairy industry in Canada? What about India? I always thought that in India milk was taken by hand right?
Regards

jai jai I support your decision , I am vegan for the same reasons , unfortunately the dairy industry world wide is the same , where ever there is a high demand for milk there is miss treatment of cows , even in india , only milk from the family cow or from true Goshalas is taken by hand , in the citys most of the milk comes from large industrial scale farming juat as it does here , .....unfortunately !!!

 

[Jainarayan]

namaskaram jai ji



I think prehaps we are speaking at cross purposes here , .....

from your previous post it appeared that you were supporting the eating if eggs ?

I'm neither condemning nor condoning or supporting it; it's not my or anyone else's place to judge what and how someone else eats. I'm pointing out that people fret over eggs and not the chickens.

my point is merely that ....

If everyone followed the pure vegetarian diet there would be no need to worry about the chickens welfare. if no one ate the egg there would be no exploitation and the chicken would be left to perform its natural functions un uniterfered with , ...

But that's a naive assumption (no, you are not naive; the assumption that vegetarianism is easy for everyone is naive... big difference... I'm well aware of rule 1 ). Everyone cannot follow a vegetarian diet for a number of reasons. To suggest that everyone can is just arrogant and ill-informed. It has a lot to do with medical and genetic reasons, not pleasure or liking the taste of meat.

which still leaves the question as to why pure vegetarians dont eat eggs , which is because the egg is a part of the reproductive system of the chicken and under natural circumstances with out us inforcing captivity , the egg would naturaly be fertilised trerfore from conception containing a jiva , ...

I have no quarrel with that. Vegetarians can do or not do whatever their conscience tells them. But we don't live in a natural perfect world, and again, not everyone can be vegetarian, partial, pure or otherwise.

I am sorry if your sencibilities are hurt by the truth , but sometimes the blunt terms are nececary .

I'm not offended because no one can see into my mind, written words don't do justice to our full thoughts and feelings, and in this world truth is relative.

prehaps another quote is also applicable , ....''thou shalt not kill'' ....

You can't use that, because it's taken out of context, the reasons for which I won't go into; discussion of the real meaning belongs in another forum. Suffice to say that can't be used in this case because of its true meaning.

....no one here is judging , simply presenting facts , you may make your own judgements and apply within your own life if you so please , ...

Facts too are relative in this world, as we can see by what we all believe are the facts.

How ever seeing as this thread is about Cow protection , .... you can have ahimsa milk ,

Not in the US unless milk is obtained from a local dairy farm, which is not very common. I don't know the statistics for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if > 95% of the milk in the US comes from factory farms. Yes, we all, every single one of us in one way or another, including temples, contribute to keeping those factory farms going. But you know what? We do the best we can. We can't eliminate himsa, we can only minimize it. Right now commercial dairy farms are a necessary evil.

Now, I think I've said all I have to say... anything further would be repetitious... so I will take my leave from the thread.

 

[Asha]

Just wondering why do some people do Cow-pray. A cow who cannot save herself, how will she save others ?


Do anybody care to answer me.

I think you realy know the answer to this

the Hindus that worship the cow worship Surabhai the mother of all cows

She is the embodiment of all of the gods and for her legs she is supported by the four vedas.

She eternaly gives us our every need this is why we pray to her as mother of all.

Although in this unfortunate age of Kali we do not understand the blessing she has given us and we abuse her terribly, she gives us earthly cows who provide us with milk and the bull to plough and pull the cart for us, but we are so greedy to take that from her that we forget that we should give her cows the protection that they deserve in return.

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Chakra]

namaskaram Axlyz ji



jai jai I support your decision , I am vegan for the same reasons , unfortunately the dairy industry world wide is the same , where ever there is a high demand for milk there is miss treatment of cows , even in india , only milk from the family cow or from true Goshalas is taken by hand , in the citys most of the milk comes from large industrial scale farming juat as it does here , .....unfortunately !!!

Yes, thank you prabhu. I am glad that you have taken veganism as your diet to not support the ridiculous and nonsensical dairy industries. It is sad that factory farming is so widespread...hopefully God will do something about it.
Regards