Psychedelics and God

[Psychonaut]

A lot of people debate God but how do you debate God without the use of Psychedelics? I don't mean to say Psychedelics show you a world that isn't there...that is unimportant, what I am arguing is the experiences on Psychedelics are such an important part of the divine experience that while I think you can have divine revelation without psychedelics how can you argue one way or another if you have limited your experiences to only when sober?

That is like saying you know what the sky looks like but refuse to come out of the cave.

Or that you know what the world looks like but refuse to climb the mountain and actually see it from afar.

I think it is odd that anyone would argue such an experiential thing (Religion) and not themselves pursued the most religious experience which is found in the realm of Psychedelics.

 

[waitasec]

A lot of people debate God but how do you debate God without the use of Psychedelics? I don't mean to say Psychedelics show you a world that isn't there...that is unimportant, what I am arguing is the experiences on Psychedelics are such an important part of the divine experience that while I think you can have divine revelation without psychedelics how can you argue one way or another if you have limited your experiences to only when sober?

That is like saying you know what the sky looks like but refuse to come out of the cave.

Or that you know what the world looks like but refuse to climb the mountain and actually see it from afar.

I think it is odd that anyone would argue such an experiential thing (Religion) and not themselves pursued the most religious experience which is found in the realm of Psychedelics.

have you heard of jill bolte taylor?

reason i asked is because she is a brain scientist who had a stroke in the left hemisphere of her brain and was awake for most of it...

check this out.

Jill Bolte Taylor's stroke of insight | Video on TED.com

from what i understand psychedelics manipulate your brain to experience what this person did

 

[BruceDLimber]

Various religions, including the Baha'i Faith, explicitly prohibit mind-altering substances!

In our case, not only is use of any psychoactive drug explicitly prohibited in our scriptures--and some are outright condemned!--; but they also require obedience to government, and this includes governmental prohibition on drugs.

So this point isn't even worthy of argument IOV!

Bruce

 

[Rhizomatic]

Without trying to dismiss or diminish the religious dimensions of psychedelic drugs, I think that the assumption upon which your argument rests ("the most religious experience... is found in the realm of Psychedelics) is rather unfair. Religiousity and understandings of the sacred are incredibly diverse, and quite a few notions of religion/ the sacred/ gods are entirely divorced from the kinds of experiences that psychedelic drugs can invoke.

 

[Twilight Hue]

A lot of people debate God but how do you debate God without the use of Psychedelics? I don't mean to say Psychedelics show you a world that isn't there...that is unimportant, what I am arguing is the experiences on Psychedelics are such an important part of the divine experience that while I think you can have divine revelation without psychedelics how can you argue one way or another if you have limited your experiences to only when sober?

That is like saying you know what the sky looks like but refuse to come out of the cave.

Or that you know what the world looks like but refuse to climb the mountain and actually see it from afar.

I think it is odd that anyone would argue such an experiential thing (Religion) and not themselves pursued the most religious experience which is found in the realm of Psychedelics.

The only thing of note in the use of psychedelics is the experience of its effects in regards to whatever influence it causes. Nothing more comes of this. If that is to be regarded as an expansion of mind as some suggest, or that of a realm yet unexplored by way of religious exploration, one needs to be cognizant of the fact that the mind and the physical remain interdependent. Sometime such an experience can prove to be more than one bargains for as to the effect the use of psychedelics has on the physical body like increased heart palpitations, dilated pupils, or even worse the deprivation of oxygen to the brain which in a good number of cases, is exactly that which triggers the imagery and experiences. In light of some things, I'd rather stay sober and let some things remain a cerebral mystery. I don't regard psychedelics as being important to religion at all as some suggest, though there are those who oppose this point to a tee for their own reasons.

 

[Psychonaut]

Sorry for creating some confusion. I don't mean to say a drug experience will alter religious experience or is the same thing.

I did mention that because there may be some cross over but what I really am asking is:

For anyone's experience to justify their beliefs how can you deny yourself all experiences? Including drugs? Especially if your religion denies the use of drugs? As far as I know of all the current revealed faith only Christianity allows the use of drugs. Christ says nothing that goes into the mouth can defile a man.

So to understand God but to deny the use of drugs is to take a side that may be contrary to understanding God.

To deny a thing is as much an idol as
To worship it, you give it a power over your faith.

 

[YmirGF]

The RF Rulebook precludes any meaningful discussion on this topic.

 

[Luminous]

Sorry for creating some confusion. I don't mean to say a drug experience will alter religious experience or is the same thing.

I did mention that because there may be some cross over but what I really am asking is:

For anyone's experience to justify their beliefs how can you deny yourself all experiences? Including drugs? Especially if your religion denies the use of drugs? As far as I know of all the current revealed faith only Christianity allows the use of drugs. Christ says nothing that goes into the mouth can defile a man.

[wow, my perception of what the Christian god holds as an obimination just got drastically cut halve in size:foot: although he did say that only sodomy was an obomination. however, when you put real logic into thies idol scripture, a knife...a knife that goes into the mouth can defile you, and so can poisons...are you sure that version of the quote is part of the current idol scripture...why would jesus of nazareth or the later anti-agnostic christians wish to mention that things in mouth didn't defile them AS MEN?

So to understand God but to deny the use of drugs is to take a side that may be contrary to understanding God.

To deny a thing is as much an idol as
To worship it, you give it a power over your faith.

Its all very simple, why do you deny yourself the experience of murdering someone? or the experience of holding your breath untill you die, or the experience of dying by fire? In fact, why do you deny yourself the experience of dancing in a public street with your pants on the ground?
when you get high, you are denying a thing.

 

[Luminous]

Various religions, including the Baha'i Faith, explicitly prohibit mind-altering substances!

In our case, not only is use of any psychoactive drug explicitly prohibited in our scriptures--and some are outright condemned!--; but they also require obedience to government, and this includes governmental prohibition on drugs.

So this point isn't even worthy of argument IOV!

Bruce

I think the point was more to the fact that anti-agnostics would dare to say they know something about the supernatural when they have yet to finish gaining experience in the natural.
psychoactive drugs are found in body...and you create mind altering substances when you go to sleep and dream. so its rather hard for the Bahai'i faith to be anywhere near correct in their anti-agnostic stance.

 

[Commoner]

have you heard of jill bolte taylor?

reason i asked is because she is a brain scientist who had a stroke in the left hemisphere of her brain and was awake for most of it...

check this out.

Jill Bolte Taylor's stroke of insight | Video on TED.com

from what i understand psychedelics manipulate your brain to experience what this person did

Didn't like her book though... I'm pretty skeptical about just how much she really remembers and how much of it is an educated guess. I think there was a lot of hefty gap-filling at work.

 

[waitasec]

Didn't like her book though... I'm pretty skeptical about just how much she really remembers and how much of it is an educated guess. I think there was a lot of hefty gap-filling at work.

have you heard about the "god helmet" ?

[youtube]nN3ggRgY7Ac[/youtube]
YouTube - The God Helmet - from "Through the Wormhole"

 

[Commoner]

have you heard about the "god helmet" ?

[youtube]nN3ggRgY7Ac[/youtube]
YouTube - The God Helmet - from "Through the Wormhole"

Nice! Where can I order one?

 

[waitasec]

Nice! Where can I order one?

hey it's morgan freeman
:sarcastic

 

[javajo]

Psychedelics can cause one to experience a spirit world, but the problem is that it is the wrong one. I know of a person, I cannot say who, that used LSD and such and they saw manifestations of Satan or demons many times. Once in the form of a red serpent with perfect geometric scales that came out of their led lights on their stereo. This happened to them 3 times as they sat wide-eyed on their bed listening to Led Zepellin 2. They say they know God is real because they have seen the Devil. They experienced many other things where they could see the fascinating, sickly-sweet and very alluring and tempting but deceptive dark side.Others have described an astral plane with different beings...etc. This is the bad side, the demonic side of the spirit world which we are warned not to dabble in, not to break the hedge, for we let destruction into our lives when we do. Reading and meditating on God's Word, the Bible is the only way to truly know about God and the afterlife and how we should live and in whom we should believe in this life, is my personal belief, and I am quite certain I am correct. But it is still my belief, take it or leave it. I am old and experienced...

 

[waitasec]

Psychedelics can cause one to experience a spirit world, but the problem is that it is the wrong one. I know of a person, I cannot say who, that used LSD and such and they saw manifestations of Satan or demons many times. Once in the form of a red serpent with perfect geometric scales that came out of their led lights on their stereo. This happened to them 3 times as they sat wide-eyed on their bed listening to Led Zepellin 2. They say they know God is real because they have seen the Devil. They experienced many other things where they could see the fascinating, sickly-sweet and very alluring and tempting but deceptive dark side.Others have described an astral plane with different beings...etc. This is the bad side, the demonic side of the spirit world which we are warned not to dabble in, not to break the hedge, for we let destruction into our lives when we do. Reading and meditating on God's Word, the Bible is the only way to truly know about God and the afterlife and how we should live and in whom we should believe in this life, is my personal belief, and I am quite certain I am correct. But it is still my belief, take it or leave it. I am old and experienced...

it has to do with our bodies chemistry at the time of usage, speaking for myself, i used xtc a few times in my youth, i had really great experiences and 1 bad one.
it's sort of like entering a dream state, sometimes you have wonderful dreams sometimes you have nightmares...

 

[BruceDLimber]

[P]sychoactive drugs are found in body...and you create mind altering substances when you go to sleep and dream. so its rather hard for the Bahai'i faith to be anywhere near correct in their anti-agnostic stance.

You're shifting ground (a common logical fallacy)!

My point holds nonetheless: INGESTION of psychoactive drugs is forbidden in itself as well as because they're illegal!

And the Baha'i teachings have nothing whatever to do with agnosticism, so your final statement is simply silly. Indeed, knowledge generally (and science specifically) are highly praised in the Baha'i scxriptures, little as you seem to realize this!

Bruce

 

[Psychonaut]

Why limit experiences at all? Well to compare drugs to murder is to suggest drugs are evil, but they are not.

God says what is a curse town has thorns and is pulled and burned. But what is good for man is cultivated.

The fact we cultivate drugs sets them apart from other evil acts. If you were to have the experience you'd see the difference.

 

[Psychonaut]

Psychedelics can cause one to experience a spirit world, but the problem is that it is the wrong one. I know of a person, I cannot say who, that used LSD and such and they saw manifestations of Satan or demons many times. Once in the form of a red serpent with perfect geometric scales that came out of their led lights on their stereo. This happened to them 3 times as they sat wide-eyed on their bed listening to Led Zepellin 2. They say they know God is real because they have seen the Devil. They experienced many other things where they could see the fascinating, sickly-sweet and very alluring and tempting but deceptive dark side.Others have described an astral plane with different beings...etc. This is the bad side, the demonic side of the spirit world which we are warned not to dabble in, not to break the hedge, for we let destruction into our lives when we do. Reading and meditating on God's Word, the Bible is the only way to truly know about God and the afterlife and how we should live and in whom we should believe in this life, is my personal belief, and I am quite certain I am correct. But it is still my belief, take it or leave it. I am old and experienced...

First off LSD is not natural, Man is not life but death, if man were life then I would believe in man, but I don't. Therefore anything man creates cannot be life but death.

Christ is life, and you'll did him to be ever present even in the realm of psychedelics.

 

[waitasec]

sugar is a drug...

 

[Luminous]

You're shifting ground (a common logical fallacy)!

My point holds nonetheless: INGESTION of psychoactive drugs is forbidden in itself as well as because they're illegal!

And the Baha'i teachings have nothing whatever to do with agnosticism, so your final statement is simply silly. Indeed, knowledge generally (and science specifically) are highly praised in the Baha'i scxriptures, little as you seem to realize this!

Bruce

so what is the difference between induced dreaming (through sleep) and induced dreaming (through injection)? either way, you are still altering your mind...as well as the fact that you alter your mind through various moods and foods.
Baha'i teachings have everything to do with agnosticism because they are purely anti-agnostic and were created specifically to attack our noble stance on truth, since it was and is the first and true fact.
I agree with your point however, that ingestion of psychoactive drugs is against Baha'i established norms... and also with the fact that psychodelic drugs have nothing to do with experiencing God.