Psychedelics and God

[steveoh]

You're right, because taxing a hundred billion dollar a year industry wouldn't make the goverment any money. No, it's the one-in-ten-thousand junkie that gets prescribed heroin - that's where the big bucks are. That's that 10000ft logic working for you.

And there are absolutely no downsides to heroin or other hard drugs, none at all. Nothing that would justify them being illegal. No, nothing at all. It's all a big government conspiracy!!!!1!11!

one in a ten thousand? haha everyone who gets a percocet or oxycontin for pain is getting heroin if you didnt already know, one bag of heroin is about 2 30mg percocet pills

and downsides, there are none unless you use it everyday to cope with stress caused from our corrupt habitat, but that wasnt my point, my point is its illegal for citizens to sell, but not the government. nice try

 

[Commoner]

one in a ten thousand? haha everyone who gets a percocet or oxycontin for pain is getting heroin if you didnt already know, one bag of heroin is about 2 30mg percocet pills

and downsides, there are none unless you use it everyday to cope with stress caused from our corrupt habitat, but that wasnt my point, my point is its illegal for citizens to sell, but not the government. nice try

Oxycontin is not heroin, nor does it contain it (if you didn't already know), but nice try right back at you.

 

[steveoh]

Oxycontin is not heroin, nor does it contain it (if you didn't already know), but nice try right back at you.

why talk when you dont know, they're both from the poppy plant, heroin is just the strongest of all poppy alkaloids, then morphine then thebaine, all have the same effects on the body

 

[Commoner]

why talk when you dont know, they're both from the poppy plant, heroin is just the strongest of all poppy alkaloids, then morphine then thebaine, all have the same effects on the body

Yeah, they're both opioids. That they both have the same effect is a simply not true - but even if they did, so what? In your opinion, anyone should be able to buy/sell basically any prescription drug on the market? No control? That's your masterplan?

 

[steveoh]

Yeah, they're both opioids. That they both have the same effect is a simply not true - but even if they did, so what? In your opinion, anyone should be able to buy/sell basically any prescription drug on the market? No control? That's your masterplan?

have you tried both heroin and oxycodone? do you know any recovering or present addicts? it would actually solve lots of crime, drugs wouldn't be worth enough to kill for, even with them illegal people still have the chance at least once in their life to use most illegal drugs, at least Portugal is somewhat smart

 

[Commoner]

have you tried both heroin and oxycodone?

No. I don't need to try them to know what their effects are - nor would "trying them" really give me objective info on the matter.

Do you know any recovering or present addicts?

Not from those particular drugs, but I have friends who abuse other drugs.

it would actually solve lots of crime, drugs wouldn't be worth enough to kill for, even with them illegal people still have the chance at least once in their life to use most illegal drugs, at least Portugal is somewhat smart

Why would you want to "at least once in your life" try every drug on the market? This isn't someting that crosses most people's mind, you know?

 

[Valjean]

OK, as a medical professional here's my 2 cents:
All opioids -- natural, synthetic or semi-synthetic key the same receptors and have comparable effects. Companies tweak the chemical formulae to create patentable variations, but the basic narcotic effects are largely the same.
There are discernible differences: duration of effect, side effects like nausea, euphoria, nephrotoxicity, &c. These are largely due to largely due to breakdown pathways.

I see Heroin keeps coming up. There's a lot of misunderstanding about this drug. Steveoh's point about opioid equivalence is essentially correct, though he's misinformed about Heroin's strength -- it's nowhere near the "strongest" opioid, per mg.

Heroin is, essentially, morphine -- with two acetyl groups stuck onto the molecule. It was first marketed as a "heroic" cure for the rampant morphine and laudanum (tincture of opium) abuse epidemic following the American civil war. Why it was not obvious that it was anything but a substitution of one addictive drug for a variant is hard to fathom, but the public bought it -- for a while.
One of the first things your liver does with Heroin (diacetylmorphine) is to strip off the acetyl groups, so you're basically high on morphine. The breakdown sequence does seem to produce a bit less nausea than straight morphine, for some reason, but they're essentially the same drug.

 

[steveoh]

No. I don't need to try them to know what their effects are - nor would "trying them" really give me an objective

Not from those particular drugs, but I have friends who abuse other drugs.

Why would you want to "at least once in your life" try every drug on the market? This isn't someting that crosses most people's mind, you know?

ok there you go so, talk to real users to know the facts, and that wasn't my point, it doesnt cross their mind but it may be offered, unless your unsocial. my point is that everyone has the choice/opportunity to do most drugs, weather at a party, club or w.e the case, but what im saying is even if they were legal. people will most likely have the same decision on doing them.

 

[Commoner]

ok there you go so, talk to real users to know the facts, and that wasn't my point, it doesnt cross their mind but it may be offered, unless your unsocial. my point is that everyone has the choice/opportunity to do most drugs, weather at a party, club or w.e the case, but what im saying is even if they were legal. people will most likely have the same decision on doing them.

I mean, I don't get offered drugs (ok, pot, but that's quite a different story) and I used to do a looot of partying, so I don't know what kind of places you frequent. And even if someone offers you drugs, why on earth would you take them? I wouldn't even take an aspirin from a stranger, let alone something that can really mess me up.

I can't just wake up in the middle of the night and say to myself: "Hey, maybe I should get some heroin at Walmart!" It would take quite a lot of time and effort to get my hands on some. And I think it's a very, very good idea that it's hard for people to get heroin. Furthermore, I think it's important that - when you do actually get strong drugs, you get them from a trained professional who knows what he's doing, not from your neighbour who can't even spell chemistry.

And as far as talking to people who use heroin - I'm sorry, but that's hardly a good way of getting objective information on whether or nor it should be legal.

 

[steveoh]

I mean, I don't get offered drugs (ok, pot, but that's quite a different story) and I used to do a looot of partying, so I don't know what kind of places you frequent. And even if someone offers you drugs, why on earth would you take them? I wouldn't even take an aspirin from a stranger, let alone something that can really mess me up.

I can't just wake up in the middle of the night and say to myself: "Hey, maybe I should get some heroin at Walmart!" It would take quite a lot of time and effort to get my hands on some. And I think it's a very, very good idea that it's hard for people to get heroin. Furthermore, I think it's important that - when you do actually get strong drugs, you get them from a trained professional who knows what he's doing, not from your neighbour who can't even spell chemistry.

And as far as talking to people who use heroin - I'm sorry, but that's hardly a good way of getting objective information on whether or nor it should be legal.

goo luck with everything, im done, you dont seem to understand

 

[Commoner]

goo luck with everything, im done, you dont seem to understand

Whatever...

 

[Lightfollower]

The only thing of note in the use of psychedelics is the experience of its effects in regards to whatever influence it causes. Nothing more comes of this. If that is to be regarded as an expansion of mind as some suggest, or that of a realm yet unexplored by way of religious exploration, one needs to be cognizant of the fact that the mind and the physical remain interdependent. Sometime such an experience can prove to be more than one bargains for as to the effect the use of psychedelics has on the physical body like increased heart palpitations, dilated pupils, or even worse the deprivation of oxygen to the brain which in a good number of cases, is exactly that which triggers the imagery and experiences. In light of some things, I'd rather stay sober and let some things remain a cerebral mystery. I don't regard psychedelics as being important to religion at all as some suggest, though there are those who oppose this point to a tee for their own reasons.

There are many who believe the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil was/is Psychedelics. If one starts with the premise of that, and what was the exact Identity of the Manna and Unction who gave the Scriptures to the Prophets, then it changes everything.

 

[1213]

A lot of people debate God but how do you debate God without the use of Psychedelics? I don't mean to say Psychedelics show you a world that isn't there...that is unimportant, what I am arguing is the experiences on Psychedelics are such an important part of the divine experience that while I think you can have divine revelation without psychedelics how can you argue one way or another if you have limited your experiences to only when sober?

It depends on what “god” you want to know. Bible God can be known by the Bible message. And on basis of it, drugs are not needed and not good.

 

[Lightfollower]

Various religions, including the Baha'i Faith, explicitly prohibit mind-altering substances!

In our case, not only is use of any psychoactive drug explicitly prohibited in our scriptures--and some are outright condemned!--; but they also require obedience to government, and this includes governmental prohibition on drugs.

So this point isn't even worthy of argument IOV!

Bruce

Sometimes being persecuted by the government or made illegal just shows how good something is. For the world powers to feel threatened, afraid they wont have enough soldiers to make war, etc, can actually be an indication of goodness of Those being considered illegal. " Do not be surprised when the world hates you..."

 

[Klepperman]

The most religious experience i had was sober at 2 am outside in my underpants. It was a miracle.
When i did psychedelics i didn't really have spritual experiences... rather more... psychedelic experiences.

 

[Lightfollower]

The most religious experience i had was sober at 2 am outside in my underpants. It was a miracle.
When i did psychedelics i didn't really have spritual experiences... rather more... psychedelic experiences.

Thanks for replying. I didn't mean every single person is going to say they experience what I m talking about (but they would with the right amount & other factors). I dont want people to try that. In Leary's famous Chapel experiment people described "profound religious experiences". One man, a religious scholar, said "the most powerful cosmic homecoming I've ever experienced." Also similar in the 25 year follow-up trial. Similar things in the more recent NYU religious leaders trial. But apart from trials, tons & tons of people have said these things. (But I can see how the word Religious could be offputting since there are other meanings in the world to that.)

 

[Klepperman]

Thanks for replying. I didn't mean every single person is going to say they experience what I m talking about (but they would with the right amount & other factors). I dont want people to try that. In Leary's famous Chapel experiment people described "profound religious experiences". One man, a religious scholar, said "the most powerful cosmic homecoming I've ever experienced." Also similar in the 25 year follow-up trial. Similar things in the more recent NYU religious leaders trial. But apart from trials, tons & tons of people have said these things. (But I can see how the word Religious could be offputting since there are other meanings in the world to that.)

Aaaah yes i see, i see... But religious is not the correct word, in my opinion. I also understand how the word 'religious' would be applicable. You see, i am absolutely not against psychedelics [i dont advocate them either]. But the effects that you experience from these substances are from these substances. Not from God! Now you have "Magic Mushrooms" and they give you a hundred percent natural trip. These experiences are super strong, but not religious in any sense. Not even spiritual in my opinion. They are purely physical. But they let you perceive the world in a different way. They let you perceive yourself differently! Extremely powerful and mind opening, not religious.


Powerful cosmic homecoming, i understand yes. At times it is indeed as if you are 'one' with the 'world' around you, and it is this way. We art from dust, and into dust we shalt turn. I understand it completely, the visuals you can get are grand! Through meditation, it is rare that you achieve these things, not impossible. I understand it completely. Look these men are religious themselves, these substances are powerful. They allow you to see yourself and the world differently. If you are religious yourself, this shapes you. And therefore, these substances will work with that. They will amaze you! And that is what they are for. Don't think these DMT aliens are real, what is real however is that the HELIX structure of DNA was concieved by LSD. These substances will give you a stroke of genuis that noone can understand, or psychosis that noone can understand... Either way... noone will understand.


Thou shalt not command God! God shalt come when God comes! Not the other way around! A miracle is perceived by everyone, but untestable to science. Taking psychedelics is never miraculous! No! It is eye-opening, mind altering, hallucinatory.... and therefore, yeah... quite astonishing indeed! But it is not trustable, Grab a pencil and a printer and somehow they will be connected by the mind, and also the wall is melting and these leprechauns werent here before.... Surely worthy of a great poem (like snow white), but not religious.


But they have been religious for as long as mankind exists. But they are not religious, in religious perspective; they are traditional. Now the LORD gave us the best of the best; LSA. And maybe Psilocybine (Christians aren't fond of mushrooms, they say it's not a creation of God, i have no opinion) I have eaten these mushrooms many times when i was atheist, yes. With friends. They ended up eating newspapers while thinking that it was cake... i was more on a purple hill that day.

However the miracles that i have documented, absolutely otherwordly awesome and powerful and scary. And the best thing about miracles is that are sharable if caught

 

[tayla]

the experiences on Psychedelics are such an important part of the divine experience that while I think you can have divine revelation without psychedelics how can you argue one way or another if you have limited your experiences to only when sober?

I doubt psychedelics improve your spiritual powers to discern truth. It's like saying that destroying part of your brain makes you more rational. Psychedelics interfere with normal brain function and, therefore, don't improve anything.

The best hope to understand metaphysics is via philosophy. I doubt anyone on psychedelics can think clearly enough to reason about it.

Thinking psychedelics is so important is like saying that someone being tortured is having a higher spiritual experience because the torture takes them out of their normal way of thinking so they can truly experience the divine.

 

[Lightfollower]

Aaaah yes i see, i see... But religious is not the correct word, in my opinion. I also understand how the word 'religious' would be applicable. You see, i am absolutely not against psychedelics [i dont advocate them either]. But the effects that you experience from these substances are from these substances. Not from God! Now you have "Magic Mushrooms" and they give you a hundred percent natural trip. These experiences are super strong, but not religious in any sense. Not even spiritual in my opinion. They are purely physical. But they let you perceive the world in a different way. They let you perceive yourself differently! Extremely powerful and mind opening, not religious.


Powerful cosmic homecoming, i understand yes. At times it is indeed as if you are 'one' with the 'world' around you, and it is this way. We art from dust, and into dust we shalt turn. I understand it completely, the visuals you can get are grand! Through meditation, it is rare that you achieve these things, not impossible. I understand it completely. Look these men are religious themselves, these substances are powerful. They allow you to see yourself and the world differently. If you are religious yourself, this shapes you. And therefore, these substances will work with that. They will amaze you! And that is what they are for. Don't think these DMT aliens are real, what is real however is that the HELIX structure of DNA was concieved by LSD. These substances will give you a stroke of genuis that noone can understand, or psychosis that noone can understand... Either way... noone will understand.


Thou shalt not command God! God shalt come when God comes! Not the other way around! A miracle is perceived by everyone, but untestable to science. Taking psychedelics is never miraculous! No! It is eye-opening, mind altering, hallucinatory.... and therefore, yeah... quite astonishing indeed! But it is not trustable, Grab a pencil and a printer and somehow they will be connected by the mind, and also the wall is melting and these leprechauns werent here before.... Surely worthy of a great poem (like snow white), but not religious.


But they have been religious for as long as mankind exists. But they are not religious, in religious perspective; they are traditional. Now the LORD gave us the best of the best; LSA. And maybe Psilocybine (Christians aren't fond of mushrooms, they say it's not a creation of God, i have no opinion) I have eaten these mushrooms many times when i was atheist, yes. With friends. They ended up eating newspapers while thinking that it was cake... i was more on a purple hill that day.

However the miracles that i have documented, absolutely otherwordly awesome and powerful and scary. And the best thing about miracles is that are sharable if caught

As far as calling Psychedelics, 'not religious' consider this: ....Its not religious to call a non religion 'religious' or to call true Religion 'non religious'.

People who ingest Psychedelics see a real Light, but think that is not the 'Light' they have heard about all their lives in church. Many including me have seen & heard real divine Spirits like no other who give Guidance to help one one their path. And many cultures have whorshipped Psychedelics. No, that's not what the world religions today call Light or Spirit. But that doesn't make the world religions correct about it.

From the Gnostic text of St. Phillip:
"Names given to worldly things are very deceptive for they divert out thoughts from what is correct to what is incorrect. Thus one who hears the word "God" does not perceive what is correct. So also with..."the Holy Spirit" and "life" and "light" and "resurrection"....unless they have come to know what is correct. The names which are heard are in the world to deceive."

 

[Lightfollower]

I doubt psychedelics improve your spiritual powers to discern truth. It's like saying that destroying part of your brain makes you more rational. Psychedelics interfere with normal brain function and, therefore, don't improve anything.

The best hope to understand metaphysics is via philosophy. I doubt anyone on psychedelics can think clearly enough to reason about it.

Thinking psychedelics is so important is like saying that someone being tortured is having a higher spiritual experience because the torture takes them out of their normal way of thinking so they can truly experience the divine.

Drugs destroy brain tissue, but true Psychedelics do not. (They are Substances, not drugs). Several are proven addiction breakers (Ibogaine, Psylocybin). 'Medical' (don't like that term, but that's another discussion) Marijuanna for instance helps with A.D.D and other ailments of the brain.