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Public Education And Independent Self-Taught Research

cladking

Well-Known Member
And there is IMHO too, namely the very intuitive way of sensing everything physically and spiritually. It´s THIS genuine skill modern scientists and humans has mostly lost throughout the materialistic and technological developmentto such extent that modern humans have huge troubles understanding our ancestral outspring.

"Intuition" doesn't work the same way in every individual because we modern humans don't think alike.

It is true that in many real ways "intuition" is the act of not thinking at all and arriving at a conclusion but in every individual there are thought processes which occur that may or may not be identifiable and in some cases these thought processes that allow one to "skip ahead" can even be partly conscious. "Intuition" even in each individual is made up of many component parts with the largest part in most instances being pattern recognition.

Many scoff at "intuition" but the simple fact is that it can be far more powerful in coming to understand reality than logic. This is because of our highly limited knowledge and an inability to always apply equations and quantify variables. It is a means of thought that has been rejected by those who believe they know everything (homo omnisciencis). Intuition is rarely verifiable by others and most "others" today believe in science, believe in consensus, and believe in evidence. Anything that can't be duplicated tends to be ignored.

But it can be honed and highly focused with learning. Obviously it is critical to science since even though it is rejected the simple fact is that intuition is still the basis of most hypothesis formation and experiment invention. It is still the basis of the discovery of new paradigms. It still drives most human behavior other than in science believers.

I´m not sure what you refer to here.

Humans would have died out if they had any beliefs and abstract language. They'd have sat around campfires contemplating their belly buttons until a tiger got the last one. They only survived to give birth to the perfection of homo omnisciencis because they were not like us. They made the world safe for us by killing all the tigers and inventing agriculture.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
As I suggested: Its becuase most modern humans have forgotten our common creation stories which spoke of the same cosmological origin and used the same symbolic language.

I believe all the myths are real. They all derive from ancient science and history as expressed in Ancient Language but they were not understood by the individuals who recorded them in language we can understand. Author intent is "hidden" inside the literal meaning of all the myths and ancient writings because Ancient Language was literal but the early translators had no understanding of the science. Homo sapiens aren't the ones who were confused and superstitious, it is we (homo omnisciencis) who are confused.

I propose that this is the means by which these stories are the same and by which we have forgotten. We can't think like the people who invented agriculture. It is wholly alien to the way anyone thinks today. Myths are merely the result of a large widescale effort to preserve ancient knowledge and science. It utterly failed but now we can use these as a trail of breadcrumbs. This trail isn't completely needed since modern science can be used to reinvent ancient science. It will be easier with the bread crumbs and we'll also be able to recover much of our history. Well... ...not our history because our species arose in 2000 BC but rather the history of homo sapiens.

After a century of being stuck on the unified field theory you'd think everyone would be willing to toy around with the idea that we have fundamental problems in physics. Instead of addressing potential problems we get endless strings of outlandish new "theories" that appear to fit one equation or another.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
It is true that in many real ways "intuition" is the act of not thinking at all and arriving at a conclusion but in every individual there are thought processes which occur that may or may not be identifiable and in some cases these thought processes that allow one to "skip ahead" can even be partly conscious. "Intuition" even in each individual is made up of many component parts with the largest part in most instances being pattern recognition.

Perhaps it should be pointed out to naysayers and science believers that pattern recognition is a part of consciousness which is the characteristic bestowed by nature upon every single one of her creatures which is the means by which they survive both individually and collectively as a species. Because reality is a manifestation of logic and occurs cyclically over time many patterns are generated. Every individual must recognize patterns to survive. Of course intuition is far more than simple pattern recognition and consciousness is far more than just intuition.

Sometimes intuition is far far superior to knowledge and this occurs primarily when the conventional wisdom in a field is wrong. Things that seem obviously true sometimes are not and this limits the ability even of peers to solve complex science.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Sometime in just the last half a century insight, intuition, and inspiration have all become dirty words to science. They've always been dirty words to believers in science but now days there are more and more people who conceptualize science and experiment as belief systems instead of touchstones of reality itself. So of course anything that can't be mathematically expressed is frowned on and if it runs counter to doctrine then it becomes heresy.

It simply wasn't like this back in the 1960's. Generations of people have been formed in the image of Bill Gates. Only logic and math have any meaning at all and then only if they are manipulated by somebody with a doctorate in the relevant field. It never occurs to people any longer that reality is infinitely complex and infinitely interwoven and interdependent,. It never occurs to them that EVERY experiment that has ever been performed is relevant in every single instance and every single observation. It never occurs to them interpretations are dependent on axioms and definitions. It never occurs to them that man can be wholly ignorant of some subjects and this ignorance affects their observations as surely as all experiment and all of reality.

Scientists today are little better. Sure there are still great scientists but they are fewer and farther between. Most think they have all the answers and just don't care about anything outside their usually very highly focused little world. All they care about is the work that has come before and is the cutting edge of tiny little specialties that have no bearing on the big picture.

Much of the problem is really very simple: Scientists must make assumptions to proceed in their specialization and can't really understand anything that isn't inclusive of all of these assumptions. They simply are not even competent to judge something that is outside of the current paradigm. They would have to unlearn half of what they know to even judge it. Suspension of disbelief and stepping outside the box are similar talents and many can do neither. No amount of "empirical evidence" or logic can ever possibly sway them.

You are generalizing.

You are forgetting that people are much complex than you realized, and that’s including scientists, not every scientists think alike, because some use logic and maths more, while others are more focused on experiments and evidence. But the reality of world, reality of nature are not so black-and-white, required the balance between the two extreme ends, a balance with logic/maths and evidence/experiment, to understand nature to the fullest extent.

From what I have read from posts by @Native, including his OP, Native want people to be like Michael Faraday, who had minimal formal education, with great inventive skills and an experimenter. Hence, experienced and Faraday’s intuitive understanding of electromagnetic fields. Faraday was mostly self-taught.

But as I said, not everyone think alike, and Native cannot expect everyone to learn like Faraday.

James Clerk Maxwell was unremarkable student in school until he was 13. From then on, he excel in maths, he was well ahead of school’s syllabus. He attended university first at 16, at Edinburgh (1847), then Cambridge at 19 (1850, graduated in 1854), became professor at Aberdeen at age 25 in 1856. But it was at King’s College in London, from 1860-1865, that he met Faraday. Most of his work on electromagnetism and light were after 1860, including his Maxwell’s equations.

As you can see formal education did help Maxwell; while his own experiences, his maths were cultivated by the people he met at these universities.

The point being both men were geniuses, and you don’t need to choose who is better, you would accept the teaching of both, as well what being discovered after they were gone.

Like, I said they were both geniuses, however they didn’t know everything, particularly about electrons, and the roles electrons in electromagnetism.

Electrons weren’t discovered until 1897, Joseph John Thomson, with his cathode experiment. And no one knew about protons until it was discovered by Ernest Rutherford in 1920. Rutherford also theorized another baryon particle, neutron, but that wasn’t discovered until 1932, by James Chadwick.

And in 1905, Albert Einstein was responsible for his contribution to light having dual properties, as both wave and particle (he called this particle, “quanta”, but it is known as “photon”), in his paper on Photoelectric Effect.

And no one knew about quarks until the 1960s.

Being geniuses, whether they be self-taught or being formally educated, or whether they are experimenter or mathematician, don’t mean they know everything there is to know.

So there are things that both Faraday and Maxwell didn’t know at the time, that would have made their more complete theory on electromagnetism.

Because there are lot more to learn, and it is way wider than both Faraday and Maxwell knew, it is better to have good grounding on the basic of electromagnetic fields at the university, to learn more than just what Faraday and Maxwell knew, because even these two geniuses weren’t aware of things that weren’t discovered until later.

That’s what Native doesn’t understand, the benefits of having university education.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
That’s what Native doesn’t understand, the benefits of having university education.

Of course there are far ranging benefits to having an education and I'm confident Native is aware of this. Even when prevailing beliefs are wrong there is exposure to great many facts and processes of which the uneducated can be completely unaware.

But I don't see how this changes the simple fact paradigms can be wrong and experiment can be misinterpreted.

I personally am not competent to judge some of Native's contentions because my physics is incomplete and woefully out of date. This makes it impossible for me to judge his hypotheses relative state of the art. Herein is the problem; any hypothesis that rejects fundamental assumptions of state of the art can't really be rated by experts either. Don't get me wrong, an expert can certainly recognize flaws and inaccuracies in any hypothesis but they can't consider them in the defined terms without stepping outside of their beliefs which is wholly impossible for most people including experts.

But this isn't the point of this thread. The point is that when "science" (state of the art) is completely wrong any progress is quite likely to come from the outside.

Yes, your point that many scientists are quite capable of intuition or even using logic to address heretical ideas is quite true. But a point you might be missing is that many people mistakenly believe that just because an expert counters, denies, or ignores an outsider it is proof that the outsider is wrong. In reality most responses to scientific heresy aren't even relevant to the argument. They are merely restatements of popular beliefs and scientific opinion and often containing ad hominins and various other illogic and semantical arguments. This tends to be more an issue in what are often termed "the soft sciences" which in some cases are not sciences at all and are more like mysticism than science.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
But this isn't the point of this thread. The point is that when "science" (state of the art) is completely wrong any progress is quite likely to come from the outside.
Outside?

Like where?

Philosophers?

There are many different philosophies, and they cannot even agree among themselves. Most of the philosophers don’t even have minimal of undergraduate degrees in areas of sciences.

Social media, blogs, podcasts, YouTube video, are often made by people who involved in conspiracy theories or pseudoscience like Intelligent Design and Electric Universe (EU)?

Have you heard of Electric Universe cosmology?

It is what @Native advocate, where they think the universe exist only because of one force - the electromagnetic force.

They deny the existence of 3 other fundamental forces:
  1. strong nuclear force,
  2. weak nuclear force
  3. and gravitational force.
Now while I may understand that some people may favor other cosmologies over the Big Bang model, like the Brane model (required string theory), Cyclical Universe model, the Multiverse model, the Steady State model (refuted since 1964), etc, these at least have theoretical basis, even though they haven’t been rigorously tested, these alternatives at least have maths on their sides.

But the Electric Universe is completely unsupported by the physical evidence, and the maths in EU are equally unsupported.

The only reasons I could think of why Native would start this thread about Faraday’s education, because Faraday started the EM fields, so Native wants to validate his cosmology: the Electric Universe cosmology.

But Faraday was never an astronomer, nor did he write anything on cosmology of the universe.

Faraday’s younger contemporary, James Maxwell did write something about the rings of Saturn, but he too wasn’t an astronomer, nor a cosmologist.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Hi Cladking,
First I excuse for my reply delays. for some annoying reasons, I don´t get RF-notified of new posts, even on my own OP threads
Secondly, I appreciate very much your relevant and well elaborated replies.

"Intuition" doesn't work the same way in every individual because we modern humans don't think alike.
The public one states:
"the ability to understand something instinctively, without the need for conscious reasoning", but
personally I would let out the "instinctively" and change it too "automatically".

Of course, intuition works differently for modern humans, all according to individual practices of being silent enough to perceive clear intuitions, but this wasn´t a problem for our ancestors, who only had the same and common natural phenomena to deal with, hence the individual intuitions contained collective knowledge of everything in micro- and macrocosm.

Native said:
I´m not sure what you refer to here.
Humans would have died out if they had any beliefs and abstract language. They'd have sat around campfires contemplating their belly buttons until a tiger got the last one. They only survived to give birth to the perfection of homo omnisciencis because they were not like us. They made the world safe for us by killing all the tigers and inventing agriculture.
Sure so, but how is it going now globally with "all the killings and inventions"?
I believe all the myths are real. They all derive from ancient science and history as expressed in Ancient Language but they were not understood by the individuals who recorded them in language we can understand. Author intent is "hidden" inside the literal meaning of all the myths and ancient writings because Ancient Language was literal but the early translators had no understanding of the science. Homo sapiens aren't the ones who were confused and superstitious, it is we (homo omnisciencis) who are confused.
Agreed. It takes a native soul to recognize, interpret, and describe native experiences and its language of symbols, and if mythological interested scholars and authors have no astronomical or cosmological insights, they are all lost in myths and selfmade superficious superstitions which is repeated all over in books and encyclopedias.
I propose that this is the means by which these stories are the same and by which we have forgotten. We can't think like the people who invented agriculture. It is wholly alien to the way anyone thinks today. Myths are merely the result of a large widescale effort to preserve ancient knowledge and science. It utterly failed but now we can use these as a trail of breadcrumbs. This trail isn't completely needed since modern science can be used to reinvent ancient science. It will be easier with the bread crumbs and we'll also be able to recover much of our history. Well... ...not our history because our species arose in 2000 BC but rather the history of homo sapiens.
Cladking, the funny and remarkable thing is that the ancient knowledge of creation isn´t lost at all as the process of formation is STILL working.

In Norse Mythology, the wise Odin have two Ravens, Hugin and Munin, bringing messages from the past and future and this still works intuitively. You can go into your own Odin and get personal and cosmological knowledge from your past, right back to the very creation of the Milky Way (and possibly beyond too) and you can get precognitive knowledge as well if listening seriously.
After a century of being stuck on the unified field theory you'd think everyone would be willing to toy around with the idea that we have fundamental problems in physics. Instead of addressing potential problems we get endless strings of outlandish new "theories" that appear to fit one equation or another.
Sure so. If you find yourself in a dead-end street without much light as in modern dark cosmology, you have to turn around and turn on the scientific electromagnetic light.
Perhaps it should be pointed out to naysayers and science believers that pattern recognition is a part of consciousness which is the characteristic bestowed by nature upon every single one of her creatures which is the means by which they survive both individually and collectively as a species. Because reality is a manifestation of logic and occurs cyclically over time many patterns are generated. Every individual must recognize patterns to survive. Of course, intuition is far more than simple pattern recognition and consciousness is far more than just intuition.
"Naysayers" are having a hard time changing paradigms because they´ve attached their entire personal identity to their indoctrinated dogmas. To me the underlined sentence is interconnected and the same.
Of course there are far ranging benefits to having an education and I'm confident Native is aware of this. Even when prevailing beliefs are wrong there is exposure to great many facts and processes of which the uneducated can be completely unaware.
Apparently you´re here replying to one one of my ignored debaters, but never mind that. Of course, I´m aware of the contents in public educations. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be able to compare or criticize anything at all.
Don't get me wrong, an expert can certainly recognize flaws and inaccuracies in any hypothesis but they can't consider them in the defined terms without stepping outside of their beliefs which is wholly impossible for most people including experts.
Sure so, And if some experts (or debaters) are scenttific cowards, they keep onto the flaws just to save their own intellectual skin and income.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Note: I´m definately out of this thred now. Thanks for you time.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Cladking, the funny and remarkable thing is that the ancient knowledge of creation isn´t lost at all as the process of formation is STILL working.

Since you're out I'll avoid responding further as well but this one sentence is worth several threads of its own so I'd like to make a small observation.

I often speak of Ancient Language as if it's dead but this is hardly true. The brain still operates digitally when we sleep and still processes random nerve firings that we call dreams. And we still wake up with solutions to complex problems concerning life and all things important to us like scientific questions. This is a microcosm of the way Ancient Language worked. It has every similarity other than that it is not well honed in any individual and most of us have difficulty remembering. Different areas of the brain sleep at different times so much of the "thought" that occurs is lost. Just as ancient people didn't experience "thought" we don't experience it either. We just wake up with answers.
 
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