Purpose of Creation in Islam and Christianity

[Dunemeister]

Thanks for you response,
I don't think it's related to language, he said that what i said contradict a verse...

But I found the reason for all of this fuss, I just browesed the website he is promoting.

He is promoting Wahabism.
Books in his website are for Ibn Taymiyyah, an Ibn Baz and the other wahabis.

These are all Wahabis who consider many Muslims to be Non-believers, infidels and from this group Alqaeda was born.

Ah, well then the ESL problem is mine. In any case, would you care to respond to what I said about the Christian vision of the love of God and the relationship of God to worship?

 

[Shia Islam]

We are, on a Christian understanding, also stewards of this earth, ruling it as God's viceregents, bringing God's redeeming, creative, and passionate love to the whole world (the planet and each other).
.

We are, on a Christian understanding, also stewards of this earth, ruling it as God's viceregents, bringing God's redeeming, creative, and passionate love to the whole world (the planet and each other).

Did you take this from the Quran?!

Here exactly what the Quran said to the angils about the creation of Humans:

(Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth."…) Quran [2:30]

It’s using the same word that you used viceregents.

And this view is very related to Shia view of Imamah (leadership); which states that For God to judge people he has to send them Prophets and after the prophets there should be successors whom responsibility is to show people the path of Allah.

Having a scripture among people for them by their own to find out how to apply in their day to day life, just doesn’t work.

 

[.lava]

Fair enough. Why don't you explain it? However, I'm more interested in your understanding than the specific texts, so if you do cite texts, please also offer your commentary on them. I doubt very much whether the texts will be self-explanatory.

you know...English, Arabic, Turkish and also hidden meanings and concepts...it is a difficult job but i'll try

first of all that verse 51:56 does not say 'worship'

51:56 Arabic words in latin;

Ve mâ halaktul cinne vel inse illâ li ya'budûn(ya'budûni).

the word they translate as (they) worship (me) is ya'budun.

ya'budun...'abd' means 'servant'. for example, there is a name 'Abdullah', this name contains the same word...Abd-u-Allah= servant of Allah. so this verse says that God created Jinns and humans that they would be abd to Allah. so there are two directions. one either becomes servant of Allah or becomes servant of Satan.

39:17 Vellezînectenebût tâgûte en ya’budûhâ ve enâbû ilâllâhi lehumul buşrâ, fe beşşir ıbâd(ıbâdi).

in this verse, it tells about Sahaba. even though translation is extremely poor i will quote anyway;

39:17 And (as for) those who keep off from the worship of the idols and turn to Allah, they shall have good news, therefore give good news to My servants,

corrections...it does not say 'worship' it says 'being servant'. also it does not say 'idols' it uses a special word 'tagut' as in 'tagute en ya'buduha'. tagut means jinn or human satans. in other words jinns and humans who follow Satan, all of them together is called 'tagut'. so Sahaba hesitated/saved themselves from being servant of human and jinn satans.

so what does make someone become servant of God? here two more concepts get in the way...Taqwa and Shirk;

23:23 Ve lekad erselnâ nûhan ilâ kavmihî fe kâle yâ kavmi’ budullâhe mâ lekum min ilâhin gayruh(gayruhu), e fe lâ tettekûn(tettekûne).

u'budullâhe (u'budu allâhe) means 'be servant to Allah' and 'e fe la tettekun' means 'won't you have taqwa?'

once more poor translation of the verse;

23:23 (Further, We sent a long line of prophets for your instruction). We sent Noah to his people: He said, "O my people! worship Allah! Ye have no other god but Him. Will ye not fear (Him)?"

being servant translated as Worship and having taqwa is translated as 'fear'. Taqwa does not mean 'fear'. for that you can check this thread;

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/64971-fear-god.html

taqwa means having hushu...and hushu means..

huşu,-uu
1. humility; submissiveness.
2. deep reverence for God; submission to God.huşu,-uu


so, for being servant of God, one must have taqwa; reverence. how do people have taqwa?

IMO this is the core of Qur'an because obviously only people who have taqwa earn heaven. if one does not have taqwa, then he is mushrik, in shirk, in dalalat, infidel and servant of Satan.

30:31 Munîbîne ileyhi vettekûhu ve ekîmûs salâte ve lâ tekûnû minel muşrikîn(muşrikîne).

munîbîne...(those who) turn (to Allah)

vettekûhu (ve ittekû-hu)...and have taqwa for (Allah)

poor translation of the same verse is;

30:31 Turn ye back in repentance to Him, and fear Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye among those who join gods with Allah,-

once more a very serious concept got lost in translation...taqwa...because people who fears Allah does not necessarily have taqwa. there is admiration is reverence. fear is just being afraid of something else, nothing more.

last two questions...

1- who are those who's mushriks? next verse answers it;

30:32 Of those who divided their religion and became seas every sect rejoicing in what they had with them.

2- what does 'turning to God' mean? or how do you turn to God?

this question is also answer how to be servant of God again. because when we turn to God we have taqwa and when we have taqwa we become servants of God. each concept is related to each other. this is basicly about Hidayat (check out my signature )

6:71 Kul e ned’û min dûnillâhi mâ lâ yenfeunâ ve lâ yadurrunâ ve nureddu alâ a’kâbinâ ba’de iz hedânâllâhu kellezîstehvethuş şeyâtînu fîl ardı hayrâne lehû ashâbun yed’ûnehû ilel hude’tinâ, kul inne hudallâhi huvel hudâ, ve umirnâ li nuslime li rabbil âlemîn(âlemîne).

reaching Allah is Hidayat. by making a wish to reach God, you turn to God and you have taqwa, you save yourself from being servat of jinn and human satans, you save yourself from shirk and being mushrik. so to speak being servant of God is not about labels you get. anyone who wants to reach God becomes his servant.






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[iloveislam]

But I found the reason for all of this fuss, I just browesed the website he is promoting.

He is promoting Wahabism.
Books in his website are for Ibn Taymiyyah, an Ibn Baz and the other wahabis.

These are all Wahabis who consider many Muslims to be Non-believers, infidels and from this group Alqaeda was born.

Subhan'Allaah

I made du'a to Allah to guide you but you falsely accuse me of "Wahabism"! Nevertheless, since it is the blessed month of Ramadan, I will forgive you for that.

Firstly,

Re-read the discussion properly with sincerity and you will come to understand that I was giving you the logical reply to your mistaken concept on the purpose of creation.

You said in post #6:

So the main purpose for creation is that :
God Created man to be bestowed with his mercy.

This clearly contradicts with Qur'an 51:56 which states:

And I created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone).

So Allah only created us to worship Him.

The verse which you quoted to back up your argument cannot be explained in your way, since it would contradict Qur'an 51:56.


Secondly, you said:

Books in his website are for Ibn Taymiyyah, an Ibn Baz and the other wahabis.

Wahhabism is merely a label invented by enemies of Islam to label Muslims who are strong upon monotheism (Tawhid). Through this they slander many great scholars of Islam.

In fact when I was new to learning about Islam, one of the first books I read was entitled Kitab al-Tawhid. Some people warned me against reading that book and said wrong stuff about its author.

Anyhow I read the book and found out that the reasons for which people slander against Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab (the author of Kitab al-Tawhid) are all false accusations which have no basis.

So don't listen to what your Shi'ah Imams tell you about "Wahhabism". If you truly want to know about "Wahhabism" then read Kitab al-Tawhid (click here to read).

Thirdly,

How can you accuse Ibn Taymiyah of being a "Wahhabi" when he passed away long before Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab was born?

This makes no sense!
​

 

[iloveislam]

By the way: To all those who are viewing our discussion, they can click on my signature to find out for themselves what I am promoting.

And this should clear me of any false accusations made against me in this thread!

 

[Shia Islam]

How can you accuse Ibn Taymiyah of being a "Wahhabi" when he passed away long before Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab was born?

This makes no sense!
[/LEFT]
[/CENTER]

What make no sense is to debste a Wahabi who follows the killers of the prophet family Peace be upon them.

“Say: Shall We inform you who will be the greatest losers by their works?

Those whose effort goeth astray in the life of the world, and yet they reckon that they do good work.” Quran 18(103-104)

“Already have We urged unto hell many of the jinn and humankind, having hearts wherewith they understand not, and having eyes wherewith they see not, and having ears wherewith they hear not. These are as the cattle - nay, but they are worse! These are the neglectful.” Quran7(179)

 

[idea]

According to Islam, God created man for the purpose of worshipping God.
“I did not create the Jinn and mankind except to worship Me.” (Quran 51:56)

Why did God create man according to the Bible?

God is forming/working with us because it is in His nature to do so - He is loving/kind/selfless and so He helps wherever He can.

I use the Bible and the Book of Mormon. I do not believe that God created us to worship Him, I think God is glorious with or without us - there is nothing we can add to or diminish from His glory.

Do you think that there is anything that we could add to God's glory? Why would God need anyone to worship Him? Yes, we worship God, He is great, and we are yet small, but I do not see God as a self-centered egotist who wants a bunch of inferior creatures to eteranlly grovel at His feet... that would not be a loving/nice thing to do.

I also do not think that God created us out of nothing. I believe that God is forming what eternally exists. I think God happened across us one day, because He is loving and selfless, decided to give us an opportunity to advanace like Himself.

 

[iloveislam]

I use the Bible and the Book of Mormon. I do not believe that God created us to worship Him, I think God is glorious with or without us - there is nothing we can add to or diminish from His glory.

Do you think that there is anything that we could add to God's glory? Why would God need anyone to worship Him? Yes, we worship God, He is great, and we are yet small, but I do not see God as a self-centered egotist who wants a bunch of inferior creatures to eteranlly grovel at His feet... that would not be a loving/nice thing to do.

The answer to this is given in the following verses of the Qur'an:

"And I created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone). I seek not any provision from them nor do I ask that they should feed Me. Verily, Allah is the All-Provider, Owner of Power, the Most Strong."
[Qur'an 51:56-58]
​

Therefore Allah created us for the only purpose to worship Him and this in itself is a blessing for us. In return Allah does not need anything. If we worship Him a billion times or not at all, this will not affect Him in the least.

Instead it is better for us to worship Him, since in that way it is for our benefit.

 

[Dunemeister]

If we worship Him a billion times or not at all, this will not affect Him in the least.

According to texts held dear by Jews and Christians (namely, the prophet Isaiah), this sentiment has the slight drawback of being false. God's love for his creatures is passionate, even erotic. When such love is unrequited, it causes the lover pain. God, frankly, IS affected by our indifference and hatred toward Him.

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

Strange but i didnt find the purpose of creation yet in this thread.

 

[iloveislam]

God, frankly, IS affected by our indifference and hatred toward Him.

I don't know which god you are talking about, since there is only One True God.

And that One True God is not afftected by anything.

"Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory)."
[Qur'an 2:255]

​

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

Although the subject line didn't include us, I'll include the Baha'i view point if I may.

According to the Baha'i scriptures, we were created in order to worship God through carrying out a dual purpose:

• to acquire the spiritual virtues we'll need both here and in the Next Life, and
• to carry forward an ever-advancing, spiritually-based civilization.

The Baha'i scriptures also say this:

”O SON OF BOUNTY!
“Out of the wastes of nothingness, with the clay of My command I made thee to appear, and have ordained for thy training every atom in existence and the essence of all created things. Thus, ere thou didst issue from thy mother’s womb, I destined for thee two founts of gleaming milk, eyes to watch over thee, and hearts to love thee. Out of My loving-kindness, ’neath the shade of My mercy I nurtured thee, and guarded thee by the essence of My grace and favor. And My purpose in all this was that thou mightest attain My everlasting dominion and become worthy of My invisible bestowals….”
--The Hidden Words, Part One, #32

And the purpose of religion is to show us HOW to go about this!

Best!

Bruce

 

[Dunemeister]

I don't know which god you are talking about, since there is only One True God.

And that One True God is not afftected by anything.

"Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory)."
[Qur'an 2:255]​

Your citation doesn't address the issue. This passage says that God has certain qualities like self-subsistence, eternality, awareness, cognition, power, independence, sovereignty, and omniscience. These are all entirely compatible with God's being affected by our response, or lack of it, to him. That is, the Christian view of God agrees with all this, but we also say that God is a passionate lover who is pained by unrequited love and delighted by requited love. He delights in his faithful people and is pained by their rejection. Your citation does not refute this idea.

 

[Dunemeister]

Strange but i didnt find the purpose of creation yet in this thread.

You haven't been reading. So far, two purposes have been proposed. One is that the purpose of creation is to worship/glorify God; another is that it is to be an object of God's love.

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

You haven't been reading. So far, two purposes have been proposed. One is that the purpose of creation is to worship/glorify God; another is that it is to be an object of God's love.

I did read these two statements.
But of course they are not answers or explanations.

Of course one could also ask what the sense of that all would be ?
Whats the purpose of worship or being an object of Gods love?

 

[iloveislam]

@ Dunemeister:

The Love and Anger of God are His Divine Attributes which are unlike the love and anger of His creatures.

Would you agree?

 

[e2ekiel]

in my own words i would say it is the proxy of God on Earth.


.

If that is the meaning of halifah, then NO. God did not make man to be His proxy.

God create man and woman in His image, meaning that they can have a mutal relationship each other an with God.

 

[Photonic]

A
“I did not create the Jinn and mankind except to worship Me.” (Quran 51:56)

Good argument for an evil God I suppose.