Putin Broaches Pretext For War Against NATO?

[Revoltingest]

NATO decided against a no-fly zone over Ukraine.

This seems wise because enforcing it would
mean NATO shooting down Russian planes.
The smells of Putin escalating the war.

 

[Ponder This]

This seems wise because enforcing it would
mean NATO shooting down Russian planes.
The smells of Putin escalating the war.

The Ents no doubt deemed their decision wise.

 

[Revoltingest]

The Ents no doubt deemed their decision wise.

They did enter the war.
But I don't look to fantasy fiction for political & military strategies.
I can understand the war lust, ie, Ameristan flies in guns blazing
to attack the Ruskies & save the day for Ukraine. But I see too
great a risk that Crazy Ivan would over-react, & start WW3.

Strong worldwide economic sanctions, & supplying Ukraine
with materiel support looks better....
1) Give Russia a very bloody nose to discourage
any more invasions.
2) Make life miserable for Russians who will lose
money & goods due to loss of trade.
3) Avoid the pretext for root'n toot'n Putin to let
loose the nuclear dogs of war.
4) The conflict will inspire NATO countries to step
up their gain, thereby dis-incentivizing further
Russian military conquest.

Ameristan has a poor record of using military might
in the last 70 years. It wouldn't likely go well.

 

[Ponder This]

The did enter the war.
But I don't look to fantasy fiction for political & military strategies.
I can understand the war lust, ie, Ameristan flies in guns blazing
to attack the Ruskies & save the day for Ukraine. But I see too
great a risk that Crazy Ivan would over-react, & start WW3.

Strong worldwide economic sanctions, & supplying Ukraine
with materiel support looks better....
1) Give Russia a very bloody nose to discourage
any more invasions.
2) Make life miserable for Russians who will lose
money & goods due to loss of trade.
3) Avoid the pretext for root'n toot'n Putin to let
loose the nuclear dogs of war.
4) The conflict will inspire NATO countries to step
up their gain, thereby dis-incentivizing further
Russian military conquest.

Ameristan has a poor record of using military might
in the last 70 years. It wouldn't likely go well.

World War III has already started. The Ents don't know it yet, but they'll help the hobbits by carrying them to where they want to go.

 

[Revoltingest]

World War III has already started. The Ents don't know it yet, but they'll help the hobbits by carrying them to where they want to go.

I'm hopeful that nascent WW3 isn't here yet.
We've still the opportunity to avoid it.
Perhaps Putin will eat his Makarov in his bunker.

 

[Truthseeker]

2) Make life miserable for Russians who will lose
money & goods due to loss of trade.

Making life miserable for the Russians is an unfortunate consequence of the circumstances. However, I don't know what else to do to turn the Russians against Putin. But will they?

 

[Revoltingest]

Making life miserable for the Russians is an unfortunate consequence of the circumstances. However, I don't know what else to do to turn the Russians against Putin. But will they?

I hope so.
Even if they won't be boot'n Putin,
he'll likely be more hesitant to invade
more countries.

 

[Ponder This]

I'm hopeful that nascent WW3 isn't here yet.
We've still the opportunity to avoid it.
Perhaps Putin will eat his Makarov in his bunker.

Yikes , hoping that Putin will suicide... that's an evil thought!
Which you have from the comfort of believing that you are safely uninvolved.

Your hope that WW3 isn't here and that you will avoid it is very Ent-like though.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yikes , hoping that Putin will suicide... that's an evil thought!
Which you have from the comfort of believing that you are safely uninvolved.

Your hope that WW3 isn't here and that you will avoid it is very Ent-like though.

Putin's suicide is the opposite of evil.
There's no way I could be involved....other than suggesting the option.

 

[Ponder This]

Putin's suicide is the opposite of evil.
There's no way I could be involved....other than suggesting the option.

Hoping that someone will kill himself is evil.

The Ents also decided that they weren't involved.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hoping that someone will kill himself is evil.

When the death of an evil ruler prevents the
deaths of thousands, hoping for death is good.
Evil would be hoping Putin doesn't commit suicide.

 

[Ponder This]

When the death of an evil ruler prevents the
deaths of thousands, hoping for death is good.
Evil would be hoping Putin doesn't commit suicide.

You could hope that he withdraws from Ukraine, but you go farther. You could hope he receives justice, but you go farther. You could hope for his death (which is already somewhat evil), but you go farther. You hope he kills himself. Then you have the audacity to claim that your evil thought is justified because thousands would be spared death, when in reality there are many ways they might be spared death without your evil thought coming to pass.

NATO would likely argue that they too care about the people dying in Ukraine. Yet they declined a no fly zone.
I am not convinced that they or you care that much about these people, but rather that they sympathize to the extent that aren't overly inconvenienced - sitting in safety and comfort and hoping that Putin will just conveniently kill himself, then maybe pat themselves on the shoulder for being such good people.

 

[Revoltingest]

You could hope that he withdraws from Ukraine, but you go farther.

I could hope for that.
But I don't see Putin's ego allowing him to do that.
More likely, he'd face failure by eating his Makarov.
So I hope for that.
It's the minimum evil in a situation full of evil.

NATO would likely argue that they too care about the people dying in Ukraine. Yet they declined a no fly zone.

A no-fly zone would mean NATO planes shooting down
Russian planes. This increases the risk of all out war
between NATO & Russia. So it's reasonable for NATO
to not provide a no-fly zone.

 

[lukethethird]

UPDATE 1-Putin says Western sanctions are akin to declaration of war
Excerpted...
LONDON, March 5 (Reuters) - President Vladimir Putin said on Saturday that Western sanctions on Russia were akin to a declaration of war and warned that any attempt to impose a no-fly zone in Ukraine would be tantamount to entering the conflict.

Putin reiterated that his aims in Ukraine are to defend Russian speaking communities through the "demilitarisation and de-Nazification" of the country so that it became neutral.

Ukraine and Western countries have dismissed this as a baseless pretext for the invasion he launched on Feb. 24 and have imposed a sweeping range of sanctions aimed at isolating Moscow.

"These sanctions that are being imposed are akin to a declaration of war but thank God it has not come to that," Putin said, speaking to a group of women flight attendants at an Aeroflot training centre near Moscow.

He said any attempt by another power to impose a no-fly zone in Ukraine would be considered by Russia to be a step into the military conflict. NATO has rejected Kyiv's request for a no-fly zone, on the grounds it would escalate the war beyond Ukraine.

Putin is right, Ukraine should remain neutral, no Russian president would tolerate otherwise, and rightfully so.

According to main stream media we are to pick sides in all of this, as if there is a good side and a bad side.

 

[Revoltingest]

Putin is right, Ukraine should remain neutral...

Having been invaded by Russia, just might
tend to inspire Ukraine to seek powerful
allies....like NATO.

...no Russian president would tolerate otherwise, and rightfully so.

Gorbachev likely would've.
He wasn't paranoid as Putin appears to be.

According to main stream media we are to pick sides in all of this, as if there is a good side and a bad side.

There is a good side: Ukraine
There is a bad side: Russia

But that having been said, I'd favor a negotiated peace.
It would be one that both sides will hate, but this would
be necessary for bringing peace & security for the region.

 

[lukethethird]

Having been invaded by Russia, just might
tend to inspire Ukraine to seek powerful
allies....like NATO.

That would escalate this into a full scale war that no one would want.

Gorbachev likely would've.
He wasn't paranoid as Putin appears to be.

The US promised Gorbachev that they (NATO), would not move their nukes further east if Germany was unified which is exactly what they ended up doing.

There is a good side: Ukraine
There is a bad side: Russia

I don't share in such beliefs.

But that having been said, I'd favor a negotiated peace.
It would be one that both sides will hate, but this would
be necessary for bringing peace & security for the region.

Putin wants a guarantee that Ukraine remain neutral, Zelensky publicly declared that he would not guarantee that, so that was one reason why Putin sent in the troops.

 

[Revoltingest]

That would escalate this into a full scale war that no one would want.

Aye, tis not the result that Putin wanted.
He could've perhaps negotiated neutrality
with Ukraine, but that became tougher
after invading Georgia & Crimea.

The US promised Gorbachev that they (NATO), would not move their nukes further east if Germany was unified which is exactly what they ended up doing.

In what country are these nukes?

I don't share in such beliefs.

We have different values.

Putin wants a guarantee that Ukraine remain neutral, Zelensky publicly declared that he would not guarantee that, so that was one reason why Putin sent in the troops.

Putin gave Zelensky good reason to want to join
NATO. And it's the gift that keeps on giving.

Putin's apologists should demand something of
him, not just complain about history.

 

[metis]

The US promised Gorbachev that they (NATO), would not move their nukes further east if Germany was unified which is exactly what they ended up doing.

The nukes in the Ukraine were and are removed.

 

[Revoltingest]

The nukes in the Ukraine were and are removed.

And given to Russia.

 

[exchemist]

Yes and no.

I think Putin was surprised at the resistance and the world's reaction, which may be because he was getting bad advice. Remember, tyrants don't like the word "no", thus his staff may have been feeding him that which they know he would want to hear.

OTOH, they would hand's down win on a conventional or even a tactical nuclear conflict largely because they have everything there nearby, plus their air force has been little used thus far, and it is VERY formidable.

Returning to the issue of the Russian air force (VKS), there is a very interesting article here from Prospect magazine on why it seems to be so ineffective in the Ukraine campaign to date: https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/...orce-actually-incapable-of-complex-operations

The writer's hypothesis is that the VKS may in fact be unable to mount complex air operations involving different aircraft types in any numbers, in an environment where there are anti-aircraft defences from both sides, and that their pilots don't have anything like the training that NATO pilots do, due to lack of flying hours and inferior training facilities. So, while they have some good planes, they can't put together sophisticated missions.

He is careful to say he may yet be proved wrong, but the lack of use of air power is so striking and puzzling that it cries out for an explanation - and he is able to dismiss most of the other possibilities.

What's for sure is NATO is learning a lot about Russian capabilities - and lack thereof - from this.