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Putting the JW Stand on Evolution in Perspective

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
No, for most people sea level rise was rather slow. And it was close to being over 8,000 years ago.

https://www.fws.gov/slamm/Changes in Sea Level_expanded version_template.pdf

Meltwater Pulse IA was the fastest sea level rise post glaciation and even that was not rapid enough to cause a flood that would start such a myth. That was a rise of about 16 to 25 meters over a period of 400 to 500 years:

Meltwater pulse 1A - Wikipedia

"During meltwater pulse 1A, sea level is estimated to have risen at a rate of 40–60 mm (0.13–0.20 ft)/yr.[1] This rate of sea level rise was much larger than the rate of current sea level rise, which has been estimated to be in the region of 2–3 mm (0.0066–0.0098 ft)/yr."

Rather than speculating one should check to see if the evidence supports one's claims.

How neatly that timeline could fit in to the bible stories of floods...?

It's time for you to start thinking about the weather chaos that is starting up around the world. And then think back several thousand years to how that huge change must have affected the weather. And you will then be able to perceive such gigantic storms, uncontrolled weather patterns, fires, ...........
I liked your quote-mining because it actually supports what I'm doing my best to suggest to you.

Proposals and suggestions are not claims, Subduction...
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Even with global warming it would take hundreds of years to melt the ice caps. Sea level rise was less than 3 inches a year at the fastest after the last glaciation. That was not the source of the Noah's Ark myth.

You may be able to witness some rather vast floods yourself in your own lifetime soon. Our weather is changing, even though our sea level is rising slowly.

Meteorology is a science as well, Subduction......
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
How neatly that timeline could fit in to the bible stories of floods...?

It's time for you to start thinking about the weather chaos that is starting up around the world. And then think back several thousand years to how that huge change must have affected the weather. And you will then be able to perceive such gigantic storms, uncontrolled weather patterns, fires, ...........
I liked your quote-mining because it actually supports what I'm doing my best to suggest to you.

Proposals and suggestions are not claims, Subduction...
You only have ignorant "proposals". There was a large flood that probably inspired the myth. I have linked it as have others. It flooded the Tigris and Euphrates valleys. An ark would have been worthless, but the tale o of a huge flood needs an explanation, even if it is mythical one.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You may be able to witness some rather vast floods yourself in your own lifetime soon. Our weather is changing, even though our sea level is rising slowly.

Meteorology is a science as well, Subduction......
What we will see are stronger storms in areas subject to them. My area may have an occasional drought.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Still just childishly throwing rocks from the sidelines, eh? No interest at all in backing up your assertions, clarifying your claims, or even answering simple questions?
I wouldn't ask you a simple question, Jose....... it might stump you.
And the post of mine that you call childish is looking better by the hour.

Not surprising I guess.....just lumps you in with the rest of the creationist rabble for whom questions are kryptonite.
I'm not sure about you, Jose.
I begin to wonder whether your 'I am a Biologist' claim has any great depth?
Lab Technician?
Hospital Lab?

I mean, the employee who cleans out the reptile tanks in the local pet shop could claim quite honestly to be a biologist, and I can, do and would give that job respect.

You shout too much. You did pick the right avatar pic, though. :D
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
You only have ignorant "proposals". There was a large flood that probably inspired the myth. I have linked it as have others. It flooded the Tigris and Euphrates valleys. An ark would have been worthless, but the tale o of a huge flood needs an explanation, even if it is mythical one.

Goody goody! So you accept my ignorant proposal after all.
You see? A flood..... you're coming round at last.

But now you want to moan about the Ark. I don't know much about the Ark, Subduction.....
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
When we moan that 'science' has managed to get the world dirty in under 200 years, some folks will say that science is not responsible, science is just a tool anmd that it is how mankind has used and abused it that has caused the troubles.

That’s a fair point!
Individuals’ ‘desire for a dollar’ — their greed — has been a contributing factor.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
That’s a fair point!
Individuals’ ‘desire for a dollar’ — their greed — has been a contributing factor.

Absolutely!
But unfortunately many folks reverse into this concept of 'science is perfect and innocent' and cloak themselves in it, just like that bad old wolf in Little Red RidingHood's tale. :D
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
@Deeje , @nPeace :
Just got through watching an "Aron Ra" video on YouTube. He was at a Reason Rally, arguing with those professing Christ and the Bible. There were a lot of people in that video, some taking Mr. Ra's side of the issue. And a woman, who was Mr. Ra's assistant and taping it I think, told this one guy who stated that salvation is free, "Your God wants me to curse my morality, and that's too high a price!"

And here we have it...
This comment just underscores what we've known, that Jehovah God's standards on morality -- that we need to exercise self- restraint especially regarding sexual desires -- is one reason that led to this accepted practice of denigrating, even hating, the Bible. Anything that seems to discredit the Scriptures (like Common Descent), is received with pleasure...to them, it validates their life choices.

Many simply don't want to 'control their passions' (like the girl above), and it often results in unhappiness in one form or another, later on.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Goody goody! So you accept my ignorant proposal after all.
You see? A flood..... you're coming round at last.

But now you want to moan about the Ark. I don't know much about the Ark, Subduction.....
No, I don't. Once again that would not have been the cause of the flood.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
@Deeje , @nPeace :
Just got through watching an "Aron Ra" video on YouTube. He was at a Reason Rally, arguing with those professing Christ and the Bible. There were a lot of people in that video, some taking Mr. Ra's side of the issue. And a woman, who was Mr. Ra's assistant and taping it I think, told this one guy who stated that salvation is free, "Your God wants me to curse my morality, and that's too high a price!"

And here we have it...
This comment just underscores what we've known, that Jehovah God's standards on morality -- that we need to exercise self- restraint especially regarding sexual desires -- is one reason that led to this accepted practice of denigrating, even hating, the Bible. Anything that seems to discredit the Scriptures (like Common Descent), is received with pleasure...to them, it validates their life choices.

Many simply don't want to 'control their passions' (like the girl above), and it often results in unhappiness in one form or another, later on.
This appears to be an admission that you have no response to Aron. Grasping at straws of an emotional statement.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Goody goody! So you accept my ignorant proposal after all.
You see? A flood..... you're coming round at last.

But now you want to moan about the Ark. I don't know much about the Ark, Subduction.....
By the way, lying about what others said does one no good. A person looks like he may be trolling when he does so. If you want to know more about the origin of the biblical flood myth here is an excellent article to read. They dated it to 2,900 BCE, long after the climate change from the end of the last glaciation was over:

Yes, Noah's Flood May Have Happened, But Not Over the Whole Earth
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
By the way, lying about what others said does one no good. A person looks like he may be trolling when he does so. If you want to know more about the origin of the biblical flood myth here is an excellent article to read. They dated it to 2,900 BCE, long after the climate change from the end of the last glaciation was over:

Yes, Noah's Flood May Have Happened, But Not Over the Whole Earth
Ah, but you have obviously never heard of oral tradition, subduction.

You should look it up. Add to your already extensive education.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Many homes around here have many more than 8 panels, and outside my home I can see more windfarms than most folks could possibly imagine. The local Whitstable/Herne Bay farm is huge, but the distant London array Farm is gigantic. Our government has not been sleeping.

Good to read.

Eight panels and the solar water heater are enough to power our home. We live closer to the equator than you do, and receive over 2000 hours of high sun a year, meaning that each panel receives and harvests a relatively large amount of sunlight.

I've watched quite a bit of documentary television about Western Europe revealing all kinds of wind farms, including massive arrays of windmills in the North Sea and the Norwegian Sea. Even in the background shots of various ports and piers, I frequently see windmills.

Congratulations to your government and culture for its contribution to the welfare of the world as well as making itself politically and economically more secure.

I perceive early Genesis as metaphor.

Yes, you've told me that. What I've asked you before is, metaphor for what? Metaphors represent something else, as when I say that somebody is a pistol. It's clear that the pistol is a metaphor for a certain kind of explosive or energetic personality and demeanor.

What does Genesis represent? Are you saying that it stands for what really happened?

I don't see why we don't simply call Genesis what it appears to be - an account of the early earth that was once widely believed as written, but is now known to be mostly wrong.

your sentences .. suggest that Science of itself can do not wrong. Science of itself cannot be wrong. Science of itself is all knowledge regardless of whether discovered or not. Science is therefore a kind of Godhead.

You're reading into my words and injecting a message of your own invention into them - not the one I offered. What I wrote is that science is not responsible for the ways that government and industry apply it, not that science is all knowledge, and certainly not anything supernatural or religious about it.

Science deserves our respect and our gratitude. There is nothing else like it. I mentioned to you the recent explosive revolution in forensic science in an earlier post, one which has made police investigations and courtroom trials much more likely to correctly identify the guilty and exonerate the innocent, which has been of benefit beyond just ensuring justice.

Because of the forensic evidence, many of these cases are so compelling that the accused simply confesses to avoid an inevitable conviction and a harsher sentence, thus saving the taxpayer and both the families of the victim and defendant the cost and ordeal of a trial, not to mention the disincentive of having future potential criminals come to believe that if they commit such crimes, they'll probably be caught however careful - however much one scrubs up the blood, stages the crime scene, avoids leaving fingerprints, or tries to collect the spent shell casings.

That progress deserves a standing ovation. Once again, science has improved the human condition making life better. Acknowledging that is hardly turning science into more than it is or deifying it as you have suggested.

But you are correct that science itself doesn't do harm. It just tells us how the world works. The worst it can do is to get that wrong.

Big enough to seem like a worldwide flood to the witnesses.

What matters is if they witnessed the flood described in Genesis - not just any big flood. You could recognize the biblical flood had it occurred as the one that inundated all dry land following a 40 day rainstorm, and killed all but eight people. If that's not what these witnesses were looking at, then their witness is irrelevant to the matter of whether the biblical flood occurred or not.

Personally, I think that global flood myths are the result of finding marine fossils at high altitudes in mountains that were formally sea floors. It was certainly easier to envision the water rising to the level of the highest mountain tops than to picture the mountain rising that far out of the sea. And of course, routine floods, which aren't miles deep, wouldn't account for that finding anyway.

Also, when we explain the Bible in terms of the limitations and shortcomings of the people of the past and their misinterpretations of observed phenomena, we're basically taking the magic and divinity out of scripture and rendering it an ordinary human endeavor of historical value only, not a divine guide to living and learning.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Does making your own moral decisions include ignoring the teachings of Jesus Christ?

In my case, yes. Jesus is not a moral standard for me. Rational ethics has developed a system of values more in touch with my own. For example, we esteem autonomy over submission, and don't consider faith-based thought a virtue. Jesus doesn't address democracy, nor does He condemn slavery or extol reason.

And there is nothing blessed about meekness. Meekness is a failure of the spirit to adequately assert itself and its interests. The meek are doormats, which is in the interest of their exploiters and oppressors, not themselves.

Others that understand that have told me that Jesus was actually saying to be humble, not meek, but even that is not a moral virtue. One is not being immoral if he is insufficiently humble or even arrogant, especially if he can back up his arrogance with results. Neither Joe Namath nor Muhammad Ali was particularly humble, but they both delivered, and are not considered immoral for being both showboats and champions - at least not according to my moral calculus.

So yes, I ignored the teachings of Jesus and looked elsewhere for answers - to myself, and to my sense of reciprocal empathy, to which reason was applied to generate a moral code. As you see, it's very different from what one can find in an ancient book.

Can you do so and commit immorality with impunity?

There is nothing immoral about being in compliance with a higher standard than that of Jesus. You simply assume that Jesus represents moral excellence because that's a starting place in your faith, not a conclusion drawn from a dispassionate assessment of what he said. You read the words with the assumption that they can't be improved upon even before laying eyes on them.

But that's how you end up with a stagnant moral set that hasn't kept up with the complexities of modern life, and is unprepared to address them. Today, we face issues such as abortion, assisted suicide, same sex marriage, transgenderism, climate change, and in vitro fertilization that Jesus never addressed and for which He offers us no guidance. We have to turn to our consciences and one another for guidance.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Yeah..... just now it is! :D

That begins to look like a Deity. And folks are beginning to treat it as such, and I think I need to think about this some more, because it's interesting.

Them dreams and thoughts are all in your head.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Jesus said: “No one can slave for two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other.....You cannot slave for God and for Riches.” (Matt. 6:24) Were any of Jesus apostles educated men? Why not?

“I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.” (Matthew 11:25)

"When the rulers and older men of Jerusalem “beheld the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were men unlettered and ordinary, they got to wondering.” (Acts 4:13)

Why do you believe a Jesus ever spoke these words? Who recorded them?
In an era where very few were literate and writing implements were scarce and expensive, how could thousands of words have been accurately written down?

Think.
 
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