Putting the JW Stand on Evolution into Perspective

[Skwim]

​

Kind of explains why JWs are so vociferous, yet clueless in their denial of evolution: It's obviously a major "educational" issue in the teaching of the faith.

"JWs maintain that the Bible is consistent with modern science, except the entire field of evolutionary biology and parts of geology and archaeology, which are wrong because of the influence of Satan, pagan philosophy and depraved Christian clergy."
source​

But there's no way to carry out such teaching without resorting to covert distortion and deception. So, other than the 8% who know better, JWs come away with all the distorted talking points against evolution, but without the ability to back them up.

Not that this comes as any surprise, but wouldn't it be nice if someone from the 8% came on board and stood up to the other 92%.

 

[newone]

I doubt those figures are correct...

 

[Skwim]

I doubt those figures are correct...

Why? The Pew Research Center is a very reputable organization.

 

[newone]

I would say 0% of JW is more correct...

 

[newone]

My experience of them is that they are VERY much in agreement about their beliefs.

 

[newone]

I have HUGE respect for them and they are definitely not clueless.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I wonder what the figures would be in other countries.
48% for the usa as a whole is pretty depressing.

8% shows a degree of mind control that is frankly frightening.

 

[Skwim]

8% shows a degree of mind control that is frankly frightening.

My exact thought!

 

[Baladas]

My exact thought!

Same here.

 

[jonathan180iq]

I wonder what the figures would be in other countries.
48% for the usa as a whole is pretty depressing.

8% shows a degree of mind control that is frankly frightening.

Just read their arguments against evolution here on the forums... It's obvious that they have no idea what they are talking about, and constantly engage in repeating very blatant inaccuracies and mistruths which I can only assume have been taught to them and repeated over and over in attempts to discredit critical reasoning in otherwise relatively intelligent people.

 

[SkylarHunter]

First of all if that chart is right I don't know why all those people even have a religion (which generally means they believe in God) and also believe in evolution. I think there are a lot of confused people out there.
Second, evolution has more holes than a swiss cheese. I've studied it for a long time and the more I learn, the more problems and less answers I find. I don't believe in evolution not because of religion but because it doesn't make sense to me.
From the origin of life - never properly explained much less proved - to the millions ans millions of happy coincidences, not ignoring the many cases where "evidence" was fabricated to prove evolution, there are so many things wrong with it that it makes me sad to see how easy it is to fool so many.
Given everything I've learned so far, I don't think JW are the ones being brainwashed.

 

[Skwim]

First of all if that chart is right I don't know why all those people even have a religion (which generally means they believe in God) and also believe in evolution. I think there are a lot of confused people out there.
Second, evolution has more holes than a swiss cheese. I've studied it for a long time and the more I learn, the more problems and less answers I find. I don't believe in evolution not because of religion but because it doesn't make sense to me.
From the origin of life - never properly explained much less proved - to the millions ans millions of happy coincidences, not ignoring the many cases where "evidence" was fabricated to prove evolution, there are so many things wrong with it that it makes me sad to see how easy it is to fool so many.
Given everything I've learned so far, I don't think JW are the ones being brainwashed.

Can we assume you're a JW ?

You say you've "studied it for a long time and the more I learn, the more problems and less answers I find," yet you bring the origin of life into the discussion, which if you had properly studied evolution would know has no place in evolution---evolution isn't concerned with the origin of life. Therefore, I can only surmise that all this studying you have done has been from creationist sources---they often bring in the origin of life as a straw man.

Here's a tip: In studying any issue the astute person doesn't rely on the criticisms of it, but goes to those who have created it; in this case those scientists who support and explain evolution. Gotta know what you're against before attacking it.

 

[SkylarHunter]

Here's a tip: In studying any issue the astute person doesn't rely on the criticisms of it, but goes to those who have created it; in this case those scientists who support and explain evolution. Gotta know what you're against before attacking it.

I don't identify with a particular religion and I have studied the issues of those people who support evolution. They were only good enough to make me raise many more questions.

 

[Skwim]

I don't identify with a particular religion and I have studied the issues of those people who support evolution. They were only good enough to make me raise many more questions.

So where did you get the idea that the origin of life has something to do with evolution? It certainly wasn't from them.

 

[jonathan180iq]

I don't mean to speak for Skylar, but most of these people generally hear the word "Evolution" and immediately go into knee-jerk mode, putting on their blinders and seeing only this:

Their natural response of course is, "THAT AIN"T HOW GOD SAID IT WAS DONE!!! THEM'S ALL LIES"

 

[Parsimony]

First of all if that chart is right I don't know why all those people even have a religion (which generally means they believe in God) and also believe in evolution. I think there are a lot of confused people out there.

Why, exactly, would the existence of a deity be at odds with the existence of evolution?

Second, evolution has more holes than a swiss cheese. I've studied it for a long time and the more I learn, the more problems and less answers I find. I don't believe in evolution not because of religion but because it doesn't make sense to me.

What holes are those? Please make sure to avoid straw-manning evolution in the process of telling us what these holes are.

From the origin of life - never properly explained much less proved -

There's a straw-man right there. Evolution doesn't say how life came to be.

to the millions ans millions of happy coincidences,

Those coincidences being?

not ignoring the many cases where "evidence" was fabricated to prove evolution, there are so many things wrong with it that it makes me sad to see how easy it is to fool so many.

What evidence was fabricated to prove evolution? Be careful here. Make sure that the fabricated evidence you post was actually presented to the scientific community before evolution was already accepted as proven. In other words, the validity of evolutionary theory needs to somehow be dependent upon the fabricated evidence in question. Which, by the way, means we must exclude Piltdown Man as evolutionary theory already had powerful supporting evidence long before that hoax was created.

 

[Sapiens]

First of all if that chart is right I don't know why all those people even have a religion (which generally means they believe in God) and also believe in evolution.

First, no one "believes" in evolution, science is not faith based.

I don't know why all the people who see the logic to evolution also believe in a religion ... but that's for a different thread.

I think there are a lot of confused people out there.

You are providing evidence of that.

Second, evolution has more holes than a swiss cheese.

Unsupported claim, pure unadulterated horse puckey.

I've studied it for a long time and the more I learn, the more problems and less answers I find.

I rather doubt that you know anything about evolution, would you like a short quiz to demonstrate your expertise?

I don't believe in evolution not because of religion but because it doesn't make sense to me.

and you're so much smarter and so much better trained and so much better read than all those pointy headed intellectuals ... right?

From the origin of life - never properly explained much less proved - to the millions ans millions of happy coincidences,

What does that have to do with evolution? Unless you are taking the new thermodynamic model that suggests we not look for the the first life, but rather the first evolver.

not ignoring the many cases where "evidence" was fabricated to prove evolution,

Please list a few, and forget about Piltdown Man, he was fabricated not to prove evolution, which was already accepted by the victims of the fraud, but rather to prove that the first human was a white Englishman ... not some black guy.

there are so many things wrong with it that it makes me sad to see how easy it is to fool so many.

Please let us in on a few of them.

Given everything I've learned so far, I don't think JW are the ones being brainwashed.

Doesn't appear to me that you've learned anything, but your future responses will, I'm sure, put the lie to this claim.

Please let us know what you feel are the five books or papers that make the best case for evolution.

Please list explain the controversy that raged between Lewontin and Gould.

 

[Riverwolf]

First of all if that chart is right I don't know why all those people even have a religion (which generally means they believe in God) and also believe in evolution. I think there are a lot of confused people out there.

Not really. I see evolution as one of the Hands of Herne.

Second, evolution has more holes than a swiss cheese. I've studied it for a long time and the more I learn, the more problems and less answers I find. I don't believe in evolution not because of religion but because it doesn't make sense to me.

I'm probably an outlier in saying this, but that's great. That's healthy doubt.

There is something to remember, however: if you accept that breeding programs exist and are effective, then you accept all the mechanics necessary for biological evolution to take place. All that's left is natural selection, which isn't so much a mechanic, as it is a way to describe a process by which most evolution takes place, including technological and linguistic evolution.

BTW, yes there were frauds. Thing is, those frauds weren't so much invented to "prove" evolution, so much as they were invented to further the relevant con artist's reputation and status; in the case of Piltdown Man, it was also a case of establishing British racial superiority. There's frauds in all scientific fields, but the entire field isn't questioned just because of those frauds. Why, then, is it applied solely to evolution?

 

[suncowiam]

​

Kind of explains why JWs are so vociferous, yet clueless in their denial of evolution: It's obviously a major "educational" issue in the teaching of the faith.

"JWs maintain that the Bible is consistent with modern science, except the entire field of evolutionary biology and parts of geology and archaeology, which are wrong because of the influence of Satan, pagan philosophy and depraved Christian clergy."
source​

But there's no way to carry out such teaching without resorting to covert distortion and deception. So, other than the 8% who know better, JWs come away with all the distorted talking points against evolution, but without the ability to back them up.

Not that this comes as any surprise, but wouldn't it be nice if someone from the 8% came on board and stood up to the other 92%.

Yikes... The next time a JW comes to my door, I think I will ask them about this.

 

[LuisDantas]

I have HUGE respect for them and they are definitely not clueless.

If they are evolution deniers, them of course they are clueless at best, at least in that specific matter.

There is no point attempting to sugarcoat it.