Putting the JW Stand on Evolution into Perspective

[savagewind]

Thanks for the turtle update. I should have found a species name for the image in my head. The closest I can get, without looking it up is a certain sea turtle. And thank you for your kind words.

 

[gnostic]

I am reminded of a quote I recently read; "the truth is still the truth, even if nobody believes it. A lie is still a lie, even if everyone believes it." It could be said of believers in evolution that "their faith [in evolution] means more to them than the facts." And I find highly suspect the claims that only a small number of scientists reject or doubt the ToE. One has but to look at discovery.org to see that serious scientists who have examined the evidence find the evidence for intelligent design compelling.

Except that the "truth" you will only accept, is highly subjective, and it is more to do with belief or opinion, than empirical, verifiable or testable evidences.

The truth in science have to with these evidences, and not your brand of truth, which is highly suspected superstitious opinions/belief.

Science rely on factual evidences, not some make-believe invisible guy from upstairs, incantating some magical words so something like "light" would come out of nothing:

Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

Or a talking serpent in Genesis 3 or talking donkey in Numbers 22, hardly give the bible any credibility.

 

[McBell]

Attacked and vilified by the evolution faithful, sure, but not refuted nor debunked, IMO. But each person can decide what to believe for themselves, without the threat of death, thankfully.

It has been thoroughly refuted and debunked.
Your denial of it does not change the fact.

 

[Sapiens]

I am reminded of a quote I recently read; "the truth is still the truth, even if nobody believes it. A lie is still a lie, even if everyone believes it." It could be said of believers in evolution that "their faith [in evolution] means more to them than the facts." And I find highly suspect the claims that only a small number of scientists reject or doubt the ToE. One has but to look at discovery.org to see that serious scientists who have examined the evidence find the evidence for intelligent design compelling.

That's 'cause YOU can't tell the serious scientists from the kooks without a scorecard. It is your very failing in this critical task that has brought us to this conversation.

 

[Bunyip]

The biggest problem with creationist education is when the kids grow up and find out the truth, it destabilises the entire social structure. Some 70% of creationist students lose their faith within the first year of college. Making your parents, your teachers and your pastors look as if they have tried to con you. This must be very difficult for students to deal with. Growing up is hard enough as it is without finding out that everyone you trusted has been trying to fool you.

 

[averageJOE]

Attacked and vilified by the evolution faithful, sure, but not refuted nor debunked, IMO. But each person can decide what to believe for themselves, without the threat of death, thankfully.

 

[JayJayDee]

The biggest problem with creationist education is when the kids grow up and find out the truth, it destabilises the entire social structure.

Could that possibly be because the school system is bent on dazzling young minds with facts that are really nothing but supposition? If evolution was presented as an alternative belief system, along with creation, then what you are saying would never happen. Kids are not stupid but they are easily led and dazzled by the claims of science. If they were given evidence for both, then they could make up their own minds instead of having their minds made up for them.

Some 70% of creationist students lose their faith within the first year of college. Making your parents, your teachers and your pastors look as if they have tried to con you.

Just goes to show you what brainwashing will do to young impressionable minds. They have done what the Bible says..."exchanged the truth for a lie". It is a convincing lie for the uneducated or easily led, but when you examine the evidence and read the evolutionists rhetoric, you can see right through it.

For JW's, we educate our kids as to why evolution is not what it claims to be. We know the difference between something that is proven and something that is implied. We allow our children to see the flaws in the teaching, because they have to negotiate the school system and endure the theory being taught as established fact. It never was and never will be. We apply the same prince to religion. We can differentiate between those who claim to be Christians and those who actually are. It's always about education.

This must be very difficult for students to deal with. Growing up is hard enough as it is without finding out that everyone you trusted has been trying to fool you.

Being fooled by an expert con man is even more devastating when you consider what the end result may mean. You lose everything. Swallowing a clever lie that is designed to kill off all belief in the Creator will have everlasting consequences. The atheists do not believe in a life beyond this one...they will get exactly what they desire.
We believe in something so much more than this poor excuse for an existence. We are collectively programmed for something better. The Bible tells us what the problem is and how to achieve the life we all know we should be living.

 

[outhouse]

Could that possibly be because the school system is bent on dazzling young minds with facts that are really nothing but supposition?

That is called religious fanaticism and religious fundamentalism when one refuses academia, and in error thinks they know more then the education system and professors who teach these subjects.

? If evolution was presented as an alternative belief system, along with creation, then what you are saying would never happen.

Why teach creation mythology as an equal to facts regarding evolution.

Evolution is backed by facts and not up for debate.

Creation is known mythology and has zero credible evidence, and changes depending on which religion one follows.

 

[outhouse]

. Swallowing a clever lie that is designed to kill off all belief in the Creator will have everlasting consequences.

Proselytize elsewhere. Your laughable threat carries no weight at all.

 

[Bunyip]

Could that possibly be because the school system is bent on dazzling young minds with facts that are really nothing but supposition?

No, that is not the case.

If evolution was presented as an alternative belief system, along with creation, then what you are saying would never happen.

Creationism is a fraud, it has no place in science class.

Kids are not stupid but they are easily led and dazzled by the claims of science. If they were given evidence for both, then they could make up their own minds instead of having their minds made up for them.

There is no evidence for creationism, every single creationist objection to evolution and claim of evidence is a blunt fabrication, a fraud.

Just goes to show you what brainwashing will do to young impressionable minds. They have done what the Bible says..."exchanged the truth for a lie". It is a convincing lie for the uneducated or easily led, but when you examine the evidence and read the evolutionists rhetoric, you can see right through it.

For JW's, we educate our kids as to why evolution is not what it claims to be.

Yes, you deliberately defraud your own chipdren by lying to them about science, a truly awful crime.

We know the difference between something that is proven and something that is implied. We allow our children to see the flaws in the teaching, because they have to negotiate the school system and endure the theory being taught as established fact. It never was and never will be. We apply the same prince to religion. We can differentiate between those who claim to be Christians and those who actually are. It's always about education.



Being fooled by an expert con man is even more devastating when you consider what the end result may mean.

Sure, but fortunately you are neither expert nor are you fooling anyone here.

You lose everything.

Yes, particularly any claim you could possibly make to honesty.

Swallowing a clever lie that is designed to kill off all belief in the Creator will have everlasting consequences. The atheists do not believe in a life beyond this one...they will get exactly what they desire.
We believe in something so much more than this poor excuse for an existence. We are collectively programmed for something better. The Bible tells us what the problem is and how to achieve the life we all know we should be living.

You make a case for JW's being institutional con artists.

 

[JayJayDee]

No, that is not the case. Creationism is a fraud, it has no place in science class.

Belief in an all powerful Creator is not any more of a "fraud" than your unproven theory. You have no more actual "proof" for your belief system than I do.

I wasn't suggesting that it be part of a science class per se. I was suggesting that children be exposed to an alternative view of the origin of life, regardless of the views of those who want exclusive access to our children's education on this topic. If you are a parent, I am sure you would not want me to have exclusive access to your child's mind with regard to Creation. Why would I want the proponents of evolution filling my child's mind with things that I do not believe? Just because you do not believe in creation, doesn't mean that I should let you fill my child's mind with unbelief. I respect your right to believe whatever you wish....but I do not think that anyone has a right to fill my child's mind with what I consider to be a gigantic fraud. Young adults will make up their own minds in a more meaningful way if they are presented with the facts from both sides. Is that asking too much?

There is no evidence for creationism, every single creationist objection to evolution and claim of evidence is a blunt fabrication, a fraud.

The evidence for creation is right there under your nose. The earth and everything in it are a living testimony to an intelligent designer of all life. Nature is directed as we can all see. Blind chance could never produce what we see on this earth....that is a fantasy. You can believe it if you wish.....I cannot.

Yes, you deliberately defraud your own chipdren by lying to them about science, a truly awful crime. Sure, but fortunately you are neither expert nor are you fooling anyone here. Yes, particularly any claim you could possibly make to honesty.

We do not lie to them about science. The Creator is the originator of all science....humans merely attempt to study his handiwork. Humans did not invent science you know. The more they discover...the more they realise how much more there is to learn. They are toddlers in the big picture.

You make a case for JW's being institutional con artists.

The real con artists are all those interpreting their fossil evidence in order to uphold their unsubstantiated belief system. Then they want to use their influence to impose it on everyone else. The Catholic Church did that too. So now the roles are reversed, but neither actually told the truth. They just promoted their beliefs by sheer weight of numbers and power in academic circles. What is new?

 

[Bunyip]

Belief in an all powerful Creator is not any more of a "fraud" than your unproven theory.

Belief in a creator is a different topic, we are talking about creationism. Only a minority of believers are creationists.

You have no more actual "proof" for your belief system than I do.

Nonsense, firstly evolution is not a belief system, and secondly it has been a proven fact for more than a century. And as anyone who knows what 'theory' actually means in science will tell you - theories are never proven, they are EXPLANATIONS.

I wasn't suggesting that it be part of a science class per se. I was suggesting that children be exposed to an alternative view of the origin of life, regardless of the views of those who want exclusive access to our children's education on this topic.

No, not when that 'alternative view' was demonstrated to be a bunch of lies decades ago.

If you are a parent, I am sure you would not want me to have exclusive access to your child's mind with regard to Creation.

I would protect the education of children from the likes of you, school is hard enough without some con-artist trying to decieve them.

Why would I want the proponents of evolution filling my child's mind with things that I do not believe?

It's called 'education' and it is a good thing.

Just because you do not believe in creation, doesn't mean that I should let you fill my child's mind with unbelief. I respect your right to believe whatever you wish....but I do not think that anyone has a right to fill my child's mind with what I consider to be a gigantic fraud. Young adults will make up their own minds in a more meaningful way if they are presented with the facts from both sides. Is that asking too much?

Yes, when your 'side' was proven to be a complete and utter fraud many years ago, I would not want it taught to innocent children.

The evidence for creation is right there under your nose. The earth and everything in it are a living testimony to an intelligent designer of all life. Nature is directed as we can all see. Blind chance could never produce what we see on this earth....that is a fantasy. You can believe it if you wish.....I cannot.

Yes, and you can ignore being told that evolution is not blind chance as often as you wish, and repeat the same falsehoods.

We do not lie to them about science.

Yes you do - lies like telling them that evolution is just random accident. A lie you tell constantly.

The Creator is the originator of all science....humans merely attempt to study his handiwork. Humans did not invent science you know.

Yes of course they invented science.

The more they discover...the more they realise how much more there is to learn. They are toddlers in the big picture.



The real con artists are all those interpreting their fossil evidence in order to uphold their unsubstantiated belief system. Then they want to use their influence to impose it on everyone else. The Catholic Church did that too. So now the roles are reversed, but neither actually told the truth. They just promoted their beliefs by sheer weight of numbers and power in academic circles. What is new?

Nothing. All of your objections were demolished decades ago.[/Quote]

 

[McBell]

Swallowing a clever lie that is designed to kill off all belief in the Creator will have everlasting consequences.

Sad that you feel bold empty threats help you.

 

[outhouse]

I was suggesting that children be exposed to an alternative view of the origin of life,

Why?

It has no bearing in reality. Life factually evolved.

 

[outhouse]

The Creator is the originator of all science

Sorry man invented the methodology of study called science, not mythology.

 

[dust1n]

In order to evolve, life had to come from somewhere. So yes, the origin of life would have to be the first step to make evolution possible. If they don't know how life started one of the most important pieces of the puzzle is missing.

AH, we don't know how existence came into being, so I guess all those empirical observations we make by looking into space and using deductive reasoning to explain the behaviors of various entities are useless, so we can't make sense of physics with one of the most important pieces of the puzzle missing.

Goodbye gravity and atomic theory. Back to the drawing board.

 

[dust1n]

The Creator is the originator of all science....humans merely attempt to study his handiwork.

Humans do apparently a much better job at writing textbooks about God's handiwork, than God did. It's surprising that the creator of science wrote a book for all the world totally devoid of any science. Probably could have helped us create all the diseases he created a lot sooner.

EDIT: Sorry, cure, not create.

 

[Vishvavajra]

I find myself wondering about the 19% of Buddhists who didn't answer yes to that one. There's no such thing as Buddhist creationism, so it's probably a case of certain people being overly clever and pretending not to understand the question.

As for JWs, the sad fact is that there is a dreadful degree of mind control involved, as evidenced by the homogeneity of their responses to things. They don't reach their own conclusions; they're fed them prepackaged and learn to recite them verbatim. On top of that, they're indoctrinated to believe that everything in the world that doesn't agree with them is part of a vast conspiracy orchestrated by Satan. Believing that makes them impervious to reason, since any evidence you bring up is also part of the conspiracy and thus further evidence that they're correct. In short, they believe what they believe because they believe it, and there's nothing you can ever say or do or show them to convince them otherwise.

It appeals to people who want to have a simple answer to everything and not to have to engage with anything that challenges it. All you have to do is get their special translation of this book, learn to interpret it in the way they tell you to, and it contains all the answers to everything ever and automatically trumps anything anyone else comes up with. You'll never have to think again as long as you live; it's all been done for you.

 

[savagewind]

As for JWs, the sad fact is that there is a dreadful degree of mind control involved, as evidenced by the homogeneity of their responses to things. They don't reach their own conclusions; they're fed them prepackaged and learn to recite them verbatim. On top of that, they're indoctrinated to believe that everything in the world that doesn't agree with them is part of a vast conspiracy orchestrated by Satan. Believing that makes them impervious to reason, since any evidence you bring up is also part of the conspiracy and thus further evidence that they're correct. In short, they believe what they believe because they believe it, and there's nothing you can ever say or do or show them to convince them otherwise.

So true! It is perceptive of you Vishvavajra that you see the "homogeneity of their responses". I think they are glad to know you are reading them for in fact you have had to read them to know that. They won't be embarrassed though as they believe it is God who makes them all the same.

 

[Parsimony]

Swallowing a clever lie that is designed to kill off all belief in the Creator will have everlasting consequences.

I hope you're not talking about evolutionary theory here. If you are, then you are straw-manning. It is most certainly not "designed to kill off all belief in the Creator".