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Quantum Science as Indirect Evidence of God?

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The connection between consciousness and Quantum Mechanics lies in the fact that consciousness is generated at the microscopic level and spans into macroscopic manifestation as subjective understanding.

The present knowledge of science demonstrates that consciousness can be a natural product of the brain, which is the same for the consciousness of all higher animals.

There is no connection between consciousness and the Quantum world except like all things in the macro world the Quantum world is the foundation.

The problem with this, like other metaphysical concepts such as 'Intelligent Design,' and 'Fine tuning,' there are not any falsifiable hypothesis that could demonstrate these concepts as having a viable cause outside the natural world, and that consciousness simply cannot be caused by natural causes.

To go beyond falsifiable hypothesis' based on objective verifiable evidence remain metaphysical philosophical/theological assumptions based on belief only.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I hold to the idea that all that we see before us is not all there is.
.

...and that it isn't what it appears to be.

"When I began my meditation on reality, mountains were just mountains, and trees were just trees.

During my meditation, mountains were no longer mountains, and trees no longer trees.

When I realized my Enlightenment, mountains were once again mountains, and trees once again trees."

Zen source

 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member

IF this research is valid it describes a natural cause and effect relationship that can be attributed to natural causes, which does not provide any evidence for the claim of the thread.

I consider the results tentative, and not conclusive. I acknowledge that Quantum Mechanics behavior of the micro world does underlie the macro world and may be reflected in the behavior of the macro world in some cases. I would look forward to more research dealing with this subject.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Does Quantum Science indirectly and more than subtly imply a God? The conclusion that there is a God is the final conclusion in a series of questions regarding the metaphysical. This is because God exists at the highest level of comprehension. The idea that consciousness can be generated from thin air is not new. The hard problem of consciousness as a scientific study is seriously considering universal consciousness to be an inherent property of all matter. Thus we have the idea of matter generating mind being understood in a whole new light. I have always been a champion of the belief that there are no mysteries in the universe and that nothing is strange. And that if one could duplicate the complexity of the human brain down to the last neuron we could generate consciousness. After all, if we had the resources, the proper reconstruction of a conscious mind should be possible.

The Quantum Sciences seem to be the field in which the Quantum mind and consciousness is explicated. Inherent phenomenon such as entanglement seem to escape full comprehension but are recognized as real nevertheless. These Quantum phenomenon, if they were fully explained in the future, may be accomplished by tying and integrating them into an explanation on consciousness. For if consciousness is not exclusive to living things, then perhaps it can be applied in general to a wide array of scientific fields.

The first law of thermodynamics is the same as the first law of conservation and that is, that energy can neither be created or destroyed. So it would seem that if energy cannot be created, then it always was, and If it can never be destroyed, it always will be. Therefore, according to this law, energy must be eternal, having neither beginning or end. Energy can be and is converted to that which we perceive as matter.

In fact, this material universe at the time of the Big Bang was pure energy, which has been converted to that which we perceive as matter only to be reconverted to its original form as energy during the phase of the Big Crunch. If you believe that a universe of mindless matter has produced beings with intrinsic ends, [in Kantian terminology, an end-in-itself] self- replication capabilities, and “coded chemistry”? Then you must accept that it is the eternal energy which has neither beginning or end, that has become this material universe and has developed a mind that is the compilation of all the information gathered by all the diverse life-forms that it [The Eternal Energy] has become’ the Collective Consciousness that we call the LOGOS God, in whom a supreme personality of Godhead develops, Which is, "The Light Of Man," The MOST HIGH to have developed with the eternal Logos..

In fact, it has now been revealed that matter is no more than an illusion. Quantum physicists discovered that so called physical atoms are made up of vortices of energy that are constantly spinning and vibrating, each one radiating its own unique energy signature.

Of course, there are still doubters in the world as there needs to be.

If everyone had accepted Copernicus’s theory of a ‘Sun Centred Universe,’ that superseded the old theory of a ‘Earth Centred Universe,’ then Copernicus’ theory would not have continued to evolve to the many theories we have today, as to the origin of this universe.

God is today as he has always been, He is the only true constant in that He is constantly evolving. A mind that ceases to evolve is a dead mind.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
God is today as he has always been, He is the only true constant in that He is constantly evolving. A mind that ceases to evolve is a dead mind.

I do not believe God evolves. God is constant and eternal. Attributes of God's Creation involve a cyclic evolving nature of everything including humans. We spiritually evolve as well as our knowledge of our physical existence. Genesis is an ancient mythical human view of Creation and human origins, it is not a Divinely revealed true description in any shape or form.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Does Quantum Science indirectly and more than subtly imply a God? The conclusion that there is a God is the final conclusion in a series of questions regarding the metaphysical. This is because God exists at the highest level of comprehension. The idea that consciousness can be generated from thin air is not new. The hard problem of consciousness as a scientific study is seriously considering universal consciousness to be an inherent property of all matter. Thus we have the idea of matter generating mind being understood in a whole new light. I have always been a champion of the belief that there are no mysteries in the universe and that nothing is strange. And that if one could duplicate the complexity of the human brain down to the last neuron we could generate consciousness. After all, if we had the resources, the proper reconstruction of a conscious mind should be possible.

The Quantum Sciences seem to be the field in which the Quantum mind and consciousness is explicated. Inherent phenomenon such as entanglement seem to escape full comprehension but are recognized as real nevertheless. These Quantum phenomenon, if they were fully explained in the future, may be accomplished by tying and integrating them into an explanation on consciousness. For if consciousness is not exclusive to living things, then perhaps it can be applied in general to a wide array of scientific fields.

No, it does not.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
I do not believe God evolves. God is constant and eternal. Attributes of God's Creation involve a cyclic evolving nature of everything including humans. We spiritually evolve as well as our knowledge of our physical existence. Genesis is an ancient mythical human view of Creation and human origins, it is not a Divinely revealed true description in any shape or form.

And you are entitled to believe whatsoever you choose to believe, but it is my belief that the cosmos is boundless and eternal consisting of multiple universes each occupying their own positions in space time, as is the belief of our ancient ancestors.

According to the ancient cultures, we live in an eternal oscillating universe that expands outward and contracts back to a point where it disappears.

“Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non-being, and again from non being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.” ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara, or the cycle of manifestation, ‘The Great Day,’ which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by ‘Pralaya,’ a dark period, which to our finite minds would seem as an eternity, or but a moment in time.

‘Manvantara,’ is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, ‘Pralaya,’ is the evening that proceeds the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the “GENERATIONS OF THE UNIVERSE.”

The English word “Generation,” is translated from the Hebrew “toledoth” which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as ‘births,’ or ‘descendants,’ such as “These are the generations of Adam,” or “these are the generations of Abraham, and Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe or the heavens and earth, etc. And the ‘Great Day’ in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period, or the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles of endless rebirths that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

Enoch the righteous, wrote that God created an eighth day also, so that it should be the first after his works, and it is a day eternal with neither hours, days, weeks, months or years, for all time is stuck together in one eon, etc, etc.

All who enter into the generation of the Light beings, are able to visit all those worlds that still exist in Space-Time, but not in our time.

A series of worlds following one upon the other-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it. This is the true resurrection in which all from the previous cycle of universal activity, who still have the judgmental war raging within them, are born again into the endless cycles of physical manifestation, or rebirths.

Another universe may have preceded ours, study finds. May 14th, 2006. Courtesy Penn State University and World Science staff.

Three physicists say they have done calculations suggesting that before the birth of our universe, which is expanding, there was an earlier universe that was shrinking.

The results stem from a theory that claims the fabric of space and time is made up of minuscule, indivisible bits, much as matter is.

Scientists believe our cosmos began in a sort of explosion called the Big Bang, when everything that exists---which had previously been packed into one infinitely dense point---burst outward.

The universe is still expanding according to this view, because it was born expanding.

According to some proposals, the Big Bang is a repeating cycle. Universes might expand, then shrink back to a point, then expand again. Thus the “Bang” would be really more like a bounce.

The idea is appealing in some ways, but scientists have found it far from easy to test. Einstein’s Theory of Relativity, a key basis for the Big Bang theory, is silent on what happened before that event.

“General relativity can be used to describe the universe back to a point at which matter becomes so dense that it’s equations don’t hold up,” said Abhay Ashtekar, director of the Gravitational Physics and Geometry at Penn State University in University Park, Penn.

To go further, physicists must use tools Einstein didn’t have, he added. Ashtekar and two post-doctoral researchers developed such tools through a combination of Quantum physics- the science of subatomic particles—and general relativity, which describes the large-scale structure of space and time.

They found that before the Big Bang, there was a contracting universe. Other than the fact it was shrinking, they added, it was similar to ours in terms of the geometry of its space and time, or spacetime, as cosmologists call it since Einstein found the two are interwoven.

“In place of a classical Big Bang there is in fact a quantum bounce,” said Ashtekar. “We were so surprised by the finding,” he added, that the team repeated the calculations for months to include different possible values of some numbers representing the current universe. But the results kept pointing to a bounce.

The findings appear in the current issue of the research journal Physical Review Letters.

While the general idea of another, pre-Big Bang universe isn’t new, Ashtekar said, this is the first mathematical study that systematically establishes its existence and deduces properties of its spacetime geometry.

The notion that spacetime has a geometry involves the idea that it can be curved or flat. A “flat” spacetime is one in which geometry works as we normally expect; for example, parallel lines never meet. But Einstein found that material objects deform this flatness, introducing curvature.

To arrive at their pre-existing universe finding, Ashtekar’s group used loop quantum gravity, a theory that seeks to reconcile General relativity with quantum physics. These two seemingly fundamental theories are otherwise contradictory in some ways.

Loop quantum gravity, which was pioneered at Ashtekar’s institute, proposes that spacetime has a discrete “atomic” structure, as opposed to being a continuous sheet, as Einstein, along with most us, assumed.

In loop quantum gravity, space is thought of as woven from one-dimensional “threads.” The continuum picture remains mostly valid as an approximation. But near the Big Bang, this fabric is violently torn so that it’s discrete, or quantum, nature becomes important. One outcome of this is that gravity becomes repulsive instead of attractive, Ashetkar argued; the result is the Big Bounce.

Paul Steinhardt of Princeton University, a cosmologist who has explored some related concepts, wrote in an email that the new research “Supports, in a general way, the idea that the Big Bang need not be the beginning of space and time.”

The universe “may have undergone one or more bangs in its past history,” he added.

Steinhardt and colleagues have also proposed a bounce of sorts, but it’s different. It could turn out that the two scenarios are equivalent at some deep level, but that’s not known, he added. Steinhardt‘s scenario makes use of string theory, another attempt to reconcile General Relativity with quantum physics.

Some versions of string theory portray our visible universe as a three -dimensional space embedded in an invisible space having more dimensions. Our zone, called a braneworld-the word comes from its similarity to a sort of membrane-could periodically bounce into another, parallel braneworld.

Such an event might look to us, stuck in a few dimensions as we are, as a Big Bang. “I don’t know if Ashetkar’s case translates into a bounce between braneworlds like we are describing,” Steinhardt wrote. But by his estimate, this cataclysm won’t take place for another roughly 300 billion years—so there is hopefully plenty of time to answer the question.

I would rather a theory which states that there are many galactic clusters out there within the boundless cosmos, each cluster in its own position in Space-time, consisting of billions of Galaxies falling inward toward a Great Abyss, Black Hole, or Bottomless Pit, where, once torn to pieces molecule by molecule, atom by atom, sub-atomic particle by sub-atomic particle, and reconverted into the electromagnetic energy from which they were created and accelerated along the dark worm hole to speeds far, far in excess of the speed of light, where that liquid like Magnetic energy is spewed out in the trillions of degrees, somewhere far beyond the visible horizon of the boundless cosmos, where, from the cooling quantum of that electromagnetic energy a new universe is created, to which the light from its old position in space-time, would take billions upon billions of years to reach it.

In 1935, Einstein and physicist Nathan Rosen used the theory of general relativity to elaborate on the idea of black holes and worm holes, proposing the existence of "bridges" through space-time. These bridges connect two different points in space-time, theoretically creating a shortcut that could reduce travel time and distance; Billions of light years to mere metres.

According to general relativity, the gravitational collapse of a sufficiently compact mass forms a singular Schwarzschild black hole. In the Einstein–Cartan–Sciama–Kibble theory of gravity, however, it forms a regular EinsteinRosen bridge.

The gravitational collapse of a single star such as the star of our solar system, can form a White Dwarf, the gravitational collapse of bigger stars can create a neutron star, or a Black Hole, depending on its mass, but not necessarily a Worm Hole.

A worm Hole could theoretically be used as a method of sending information or travelers through space unfortunately, physical matter which includes humans journeying through the space tunnels would appear to be an impossibility as there are strong indications that material objects travelling through a worm hole is forbidden by the law of physics.

But now that it has been discovered that Physical matter is but an illusion, and all is, but the eternal energy, which has neither beginning or end, perhaps one day new technology may develop a way to teleport bodies of energy along light beams and reconstruct them to their original form, with no damage done.

Wormholes may not only connect two separate regions within the universe, they could also connect two different universes.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
IF this research is valid it describes a natural cause and effect relationship that can be attributed to natural causes, which does not provide any evidence for the claim of the thread.

I consider the results tentative, and not conclusive. I acknowledge that Quantum Mechanics behavior of the micro world does underlie the macro world and may be reflected in the behavior of the macro world in some cases. I would look forward to more research dealing with this subject.

As I stated, the experiments have been modified, expanded, and replicated in other more modern experiments around the world. I have taken the time and effort to find them for others in the past, but it is a bit of work, so if you are interested in pursuing such experiments, by all means, be my guest. The information is out there, and published in peer reviewed journals.

If the experiments by Jacobo-Grinsberg describe a natural cause and effect relationship of natural causes, as you claim, then explain it. No one that I know can explain the phenomena of brain nonlocality via signal-less communication.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
As I stated, the experiments have been modified, expanded, and replicated in other more modern experiments around the world. I have taken the time and effort to find them for others in the past, but it is a bit of work, so if you are interested in pursuing such experiments, by all means, be my guest. The information is out there, and published in peer reviewed journals.

You have cited no such experiments,

If the experiments by Jacobo-Grinsberg describe a natural cause and effect relationship of natural causes, as you claim, then explain it. No one that I know can explain the phenomena of brain nonlocality via signal-less communication.

The article cited offered a natural explanation. Other than that you are 'arguing from ignorance' to propose a non-natural explanation.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
As I stated, the experiments have been modified, expanded, and replicated in other more modern experiments around the world. I have taken the time and effort to find them for others in the past, but it is a bit of work, so if you are interested in pursuing such experiments, by all means, be my guest. The information is out there, and published in peer reviewed journals.

You have cited no such experiments,

If the experiments by Jacobo-Grinsberg describe a natural cause and effect relationship of natural causes, as you claim, then explain it. No one that I know can explain the phenomena of brain nonlocality via signal-less communication.

The article cited offered a natural explanation. Other than that you are 'arguing from ignorance' to propose a non-natural explanation.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
As I stated, the experiments have been modified, expanded, and replicated in other more modern experiments around the world. I have taken the time and effort to find them for others in the past, but it is a bit of work, so if you are interested in pursuing such experiments, by all means, be my guest. The information is out there, and published in peer reviewed journals.

You have cited no such experiments,

If the experiments by Jacobo-Grinsberg describe a natural cause and effect relationship of natural causes, as you claim, then explain it. No one that I know can explain the phenomena of brain nonlocality via signal-less communication.

The article cited offered a natural explanation. Other than that you are 'arguing from ignorance' to propose a non-natural explanation.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
As I stated, the experiments have been modified, expanded, and replicated in other more modern experiments around the world. I have taken the time and effort to find them for others in the past, but it is a bit of work, so if you are interested in pursuing such experiments, by all means, be my guest. The information is out there, and published in peer reviewed journals.

You have cited no such experiments,

If the experiments by Jacobo-Grinsberg describe a natural cause and effect relationship of natural causes, as you claim, then explain it. No one that I know can explain the phenomena of brain nonlocality via signal-less communication.

The article cited offered a natural explanation. Other than that you are 'arguing from ignorance' to propose a non-natural explanation.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
As I stated, the experiments have been modified, expanded, and replicated in other more modern experiments around the world. I have taken the time and effort to find them for others in the past, but it is a bit of work, so if you are interested in pursuing such experiments, by all means, be my guest. The information is out there, and published in peer reviewed journals.

You have cited no such experiments,

If the experiments by Jacobo-Grinsberg describe a natural cause and effect relationship of natural causes, as you claim, then explain it. No one that I know can explain the phenomena of brain nonlocality via signal-less communication.

The article cited offered a natural explanation, though inconclusive. Other than that you are 'arguing from ignorance' to propose a non-natural explanation.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
As I stated, the experiments have been modified, expanded, and replicated in other more modern experiments around the world. I have taken the time and effort to find them for others in the past, but it is a bit of work, so if you are interested in pursuing such experiments, by all means, be my guest. The information is out there, and published in peer reviewed journals.

You have cited no such experiments,

If the experiments by Jacobo-Grinsberg describe a natural cause and effect relationship of natural causes, as you claim, then explain it. No one that I know can explain the phenomena of brain nonlocality via signal-less communication.

The article cited offered a natural explanation, though inconclusive. Other than that you are 'arguing from ignorance' to propose a non-natural explanation.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
As I stated, the experiments have been modified, expanded, and replicated in other more modern experiments around the world. I have taken the time and effort to find them for others in the past, but it is a bit of work, so if you are interested in pursuing such experiments, by all means, be my guest. The information is out there, and published in peer reviewed journals.

You have cited no such experiments,

If the experiments by Jacobo-Grinsberg describe a natural cause and effect relationship of natural causes, as you claim, then explain it. No one that I know can explain the phenomena of brain nonlocality via signal-less communication.

The article cited offered a natural explanation, though inconclusive. Other than that you are 'arguing from ignorance' to propose a non-natural explanation.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That

You have cited no such experiments,



The article cited offered a natural explanation. Other than that you are 'arguing from ignorance' to propose a non-natural explanation.

What is the 'natural explanation' for one subject's brain receiving signals from a distant subject's brain that is being stimulated, while the receiving brain receives zero stimulation?

You did not read me correctly: I said that I had looked up other research in the past for others on this forum to confirm Jacobo-Grinsberg's results, but since it is a lot of work, am not going to do it any longer. If you wish to pursue such research, please proceed.

Did you notice that you posted the same content 5 times?
 
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