Quest for the historical Jesus

[steeltoes]

Re the quest for the historical Jesus, apparently we are in the throes of a third quest for the historical Jesus, wherein scholars of the third quest have been accused of mixing apologetics with scholarship and being one sided. Will there ever be any agreement? Will the third quest go the way of the first two?

 

[Matthew78]

Huh? What do you mean?

I have been interested in the "Third Quest" for some time. However, some folks are convinced that it's dead. A radical New Testament scholar, Robert M Price, author of The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man seems convinced that the quest is over and it's a failed quest because the gospel story is mythical from beginning to end. He's convinced that there is no historical Jesus to be found. However, it seems to me that biblical scholar Joseph Hoffmann is heading a new group of scholars. This new group is called the "Jesus Process" and my impression of it is that he is trying to form a group of reputable New Testament scholars and do better than the infamous Jesus Seminar. I don't know whether this is a "Fourth Quest" type of project that Hoffmann is trying to launch or if it's an extension of the "Third Quest".

Matthew

 

[Desert Snake]

*Post Removed*

Sure, if you're not trying to disprove Christianity or religion in general.

 

[steeltoes]

Sure, if you're not trying to disprove Christianity or religion in general.

There's nothing to disprove. Whatever Christianity began with, a spiritual Christ or an historical Jesus, Christianity is what it is. Rise's view can't be disproved and no one is trying to disprove it. As an historical question, it's not so clear how Christianity started, the traditional view is debatable. At least, that's the way it appears as I see it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Will the third quest go the way of the first two?

I suspect so.

The broad consensus will remain the broad consensus while folks like Price will continue profiting from selling works to the mythicist fringe. But, barring the availability of new evidence, it's likely to be little more than a stale cottage industry of increasing irrelevance.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

The broad consensus will remain the broad consensus while folks like Price will continue profiting from selling works to the mythicist fringe. But, barring the availability of new evidence, it's likely to be little more than a stale cottage industry of increasing irrelevance.

Nah. With time, Jesus will go the way of the Roman gods. The only difference is that Christians will continue to be Christians, even when the majority of them accept that no such man as Jesus ever lived.

A literal Jesus is no more necessary than a literal Adam.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Nah. With time, Jesus will go the way of the Roman gods. The only difference is that Christians will continue to be Christians, even when the majority of them accept that no such man as Jesus ever lived. A literal Jesus is no more necessary than a literal Adam.

You clearly have a zealously held, albeit baseless, belief. As long as we all understand that yours is a fringe position maintained with wholly unwarranted certitude it does little harm.

 

[outhouse]

Re the quest for the historical Jesus, apparently we are in the throes of a third quest for the historical Jesus, wherein scholars of the third quest have been accused of mixing apologetics with scholarship and being one sided. Will there ever be any agreement? Will the third quest go the way of the first two?

Nothing has "gone the way". The scholarships on all of them are valuable, even if not just to understand which path not to follow.


Most scholars follow a historical Yehoshua, as pointed out by others, only a slight minority follow a 100% mythical Jesus.

Price
Carrier
Doherty
Acharya S [handle]

And a few more.

Only two have the proper education.

All ofthese people will not agree, nor can they come up with a credible hypothesis that makes more sense then what is known.

Add about a thousand names bellow of credible scholars that back a Historical Yehoshua, and of course most wont agree fully, but many do follow semi along the same lines. But they are credible.

Ones I follow

Meyers
Crossan
Moss
Borg
Reed
Ehrman
Sanders

And more.



So at this time it would be wise to ask, which scholarships do you find biased or apologetic in nature, and in which areas. Then we can address the details of such.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

May I ask which books by these authors you've read and which you found most valuable?

 

[Matthew78]

*Post Removed*

Not everyone believes that Jesus of Nazareth was God incarnate in human flesh. I believe that there was an historical Jesus and I am clearly interested in seeing what history can say about him. I don't believe that his "Spirit" is alive nor do I believe that Evangelical Christians have any such "Holy Spirit" in them. Quests have been launched but still more work is needed on the historical context of Jesus. If you believe the Holy Spirit can tell you more than historical methods can, I will not argue with you. I respectfully disagree with you. But don't tell me that the "Holy Spirit" can tell me all I need to know. I am interested in history, not Evangelical dogma.

 

[Matthew78]

I suspect so.

The broad consensus will remain the broad consensus while folks like Price will continue profiting from selling works to the mythicist fringe. But, barring the availability of new evidence, it's likely to be little more than a stale cottage industry of increasing irrelevance.

I agree. Price and Richard Carrier are on the fringe. Carrier has a cult of personality that has grown around him and the biggest fans of each are former Christians who are angry at the church and want to prove that Jesus was purely mythical. This would be the ultimate egg-on-the-face of Christian churches. At least Price has told such people to get a life. Carrier welcomes their anger; with their disgruntled attitude comes funding for his independent "research".

Matthew

 

[maxfreakout]

the ahistoricist/mythicist view of Jesus is gaining popularity, especially now that people encounter it on the internet. Just 10 years ago it would have been completely unthinkable and unnecesary for a scholar to write a book called `did jesus exist?`, but thanx to the internet times have now changed and the question of jesus` historicity has entered the mainstream.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I have not paid much attention to either for quite some time. I remember Carrier from my old iidb days and it's been almost as long since reading Incredible Shrinking Son of Man. I vaguely recall liking Carrier or, at the very least, thinking his arguments to be reasonably cogent. On the other hand I well remember feeling cheated after having actually spent money on Price's work.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

the ahistoricist/mythicist view of Jesus is gaining popularity, especially now that people encounter it on the internet.

A popularity fueled by ones ability to convince oneself by quote mining the internet is really not worth too much.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

You clearly have a zealously held, albeit baseless, belief. As long as we all understand that yours is a fringe position maintained with wholly unwarranted certitude it does little harm.

If only you could make actual arguments for your position, I might be swayed toward an historical Jesus. But because the evidence is so poor, I'll have to stick with my rationally-examined and logically-concluded belief that there was no actual Jesus.

Sorry.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Sorry.

It's OK.

 

[maxfreakout]

A popularity fueled by ones ability to convince oneself by quote mining the internet is really not worth too much.

this ^ is a mischacterisation of the recent increase in popularity of the mythic jesus idea. It has nothing to do with quote mining, it is simply because the internet enables people to encounter the mythic view and think about it for themselves. Before the internet existed there was no access to the mythic view, nobody ever heard about it. It is never mentioned in schools or universities, strictly forbidden to even entertain it as a possibility; but the internet levels the playing field by enabling a much greater degree of free discussion.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

this ^ is a mischacterisation of the recent increase in popularity of the mythic jesus idea.

Perhaps, but tell me: What evidence can you present to suggest that there has been a shift in the consensus of scholarship?

 

[maxfreakout]

Perhaps, but tell me: What evidence can you present to suggest that there has been a shift in the consensus of scholarship?

there hasn't been a shift in the consensus of scholarship. Professional scholars are de facto forbidden from even suggesting idea that Jesus might not be a historical person. That has always been the case. What has happened recently because of the internet, is that many internet users have encountered the mythic jesus idea on the internet and began thinking about it for themselves, thus the popularity and awareness of the idea has vastly increased.

the internet has opened up a new uncensored channel of information which enables people to encounter the mythicist view

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

there hasn't been a shift in the consensus of scholarship.

I agree.

Professional scholars are de facto forbidden from even suggesting idea that Jesus might not be a historical person. That has always been the case.

I see.