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Quest for the historical Jesus

maxfreakout

Active Member
Before I address any of this, could I get you to respond to post #134?

have a look at the book yourself, there are many appeals to authority just in the introduction alone, it is the vastly predominant line of argument right through the whole book.

for example on page 2: "of the thousands of scholars of early christianity...none of them to my knowledge has any doubts that jesus existed". And you can find hundreds more instances of this exact claim throughout the book, this seems to be the only substantial argument for historical jesus (its the only argument the scholars themselves can think of) - he existed just because scholars refuse to question his existence.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Biblical scholars are not historians, which is why the biblical Jesus just happens to turn out to be the historical Jesus when left up to the biblical scholar.

From wiki:
Definition (of bible studies)
The Oxford Handbook of Biblical Studies defines the field as a set of various, and in some cases independent disciplines for the study of the collection of ancient texts generally known as the Bible.[1] These disciplines include but are not limited to archaeology, Egyptology, textual criticism, linguistics, history, sociology and theology.[1]

You're setting false parameters and assigning inaccurate criteria to the term "Biblical scholars".

If I'm reading you right, the definition you're using is: "Biblical scholar = a scholar who studies and revers the Bible".

Not saying there aren't scholars who fit that description, but you could discount all of them and the scholarly concensus (that includes historians) would still be in favor of historicity.
 
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Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Biblical scholars are not historians,

Sorry but this is just wrong.

which is why the biblical Jesus just happens to turn out to be the historical Jesus when left up to the biblical scholar.

again: it seems you're using a definition of Biblical scholar that's all your own.

Just for the sake of being able to communicate, could you actually give your definition, in detail?
 

steeltoes

Junior member
That's nice, but until so called scholarly consensus comes to an agreement as to what this so called historical Jesus consisted of I will continue carrying on not knowing one way or the other.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
have a look at the book yourself, there are many appeals to authority just in the introduction alone, it is the vastly predominant line of argument right through the whole book.

for example on page 2: "of the thousands of scholars of early christianity...none of them to my knowledge has any doubts that jesus existed". And you can find hundreds more instances of this exact claim throughout the book, this seems to be the only substantial argument for historical jesus (its the only argument the scholars themselves can think of) - he existed just because scholars refuse to question his existence.

Thank you. I am now convinced that you've actually read page 2 (or part of it anyway). :D
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Maybe a lot of what we believe took place in ancient times could be reassessed. History is written by the victors, one sided.

Unless of course what the "losers" thought is quoted extensively in surviving works (Contra Celsum, Contra Julianum, etc), or is discovered through archaeology (as is the case with the gnostics, althought they too were known extensively through quotations, along with the Qumran community, the Mithraicists, and many others), or is preserved by the "victors" (as is the case with most of our classical texts), or the initial "losers' become the "victors" and manage to preserve much of what was written, or any number of other ways we know about the "losing side" which basically describes almost every cultures, civilization, group, etc., that ever was.

Most of our "history" of Jesus comes to us by way of biblical scholars since most of the actual historians won't go near the subject, and biblical scholars get fired for questioning an historical Jesus.

You can get fired as a biblical scholar for doing a lot of the things biblical scholars do all the time. But you know this in advance. If you don't buy into catholicism, don't become a professor at Catholic University of America. Same with any seminary or institute which requires professors & researchers to committ to a particular doctrine of faith (and sometimes require students to as well). But plenty do not. There are more positions currently for PhDs in N.T. studies or biblical studies which require no such committment than there are positions period for philosophy or classics (perhaps both together).

BTW, scholarly works on The Bible are a good read, biblical scholars doing historical Jesus, not so much, and understandably so.
Guess where historical criticism (i.e., the modern historical approach) was invented? Biblical studies. Same place modern linguistics was founded.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
Unless of course what the "losers" thought is quoted extensively in surviving works (Contra Celsum, Contra Julianum, etc), or is discovered through archaeology (as is the case with the gnostics, althought they too were known extensively through quotations, along with the Qumran community, the Mithraicists, and many others), or is preserved by the "victors" (as is the case with most of our classical texts), or the initial "losers' become the "victors" and manage to preserve much of what was written, or any number of other ways we know about the "losing side" which basically describes almost every cultures, civilization, group, etc., that ever was.



You can get fired as a biblical scholar for doing a lot of the things biblical scholars do all the time. But you know this in advance. If you don't buy into catholicism, don't become a professor at Catholic University of America. Same with any seminary or institute which requires professors & researchers to committ to a particular doctrine of faith (and sometimes require students to as well). But plenty do not. There are more positions currently for PhDs in N.T. studies or biblical studies which require no such committment than there are positions period for philosophy or classics (perhaps both together).


Guess where historical criticism (i.e., the modern historical approach) was invented? Biblical studies. Same place modern linguistics was founded.

The modern historical approach is far removed from its ideological beginnings of the Protestant reformation once rationalists and naturalists ran with it. The miracle working death defying Jesus was believed for tens of centuries until it was argued by naturalists that it was impossible for such a being to exist, and that's when the modern quest for the historical Jesus began. Biblical scholars still read their gospels as if they are reading historical accounts, but then, what else is a scholar to do for their historical Jesus?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The modern historical approach is far removed from its ideological beginnings of the Protestant reformation once rationalists and naturalists ran with it.
Not an apt analogy. This was the beginning of modernity. It's like saying mathematics and science are as "far removed" from the work of Newton, Leibniz, Laplace, etc,. The idea that sources should be analyzed critically, that some epistemological framework mattered, and pretty much all of modern historiography came from and is still related to biblical studies. In fact, Newton's biblical scholarship largely predates the advent of the historical-critical period.

The miracle working death defying Jesus was believed for tens of centuries until it was argued by naturalists that it was impossible for such a being to exist, and that's when the modern quest for the historical Jesus began.

You are quite simply wrong. First, the "quest" began before Schweitzer's originator Reimarus. Thomas Chubbs, for example, wrote about the issue. More importantly, the first major defences mounted against the historical-critical attack by Reimarus did not seek to defend the idea that Jesus performed miracles. They sought to explain these miracles away as "natural", but they were no more "naturalists" than they were pagans. They believed in God and Jesus Christ. And it was Strauss who collapsed their arguments. That was over 150 years ago.

Biblical scholars still read their gospels as if they are reading historical accounts, but then, what else is a scholar to do for their historical Jesus?
It appears that the only biblical scholar whose work you know of is Ehrman, and it also appears as if you haven't actually read any of his scholarship. Just the popular junk he writes for general audiences (not junk because he does this, just junk because he turns it into sensationalism). So what would you know about what biblical scholars (or anyone who has contributed to the field) thinks, assumes, believes, etc., and upon what do you base this knowledge?
 

steeltoes

Junior member
I thought it was Strauss that explained gospel miracles as natural events, whatever, the point I make on topic is that historical Jesus is still up for debate. I don't buy the historical Jesus from what we have, which is not to say that I therefore buy the Jesus myth theory, in other words, not A therefore B is not what I propose. I'm least impressed by Ehrman for reading the gospels into Paul, I find that to be circular due to unnecessary assumptions imposed upon the epistle writers that otherwise appear to be completely unaware of the gospel Jesus from Nazareth. And no, I am not that familiar with Ehrman, other than what I have come across online.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I thought it was Strauss that explained gospel miracles as natural events
No, Strauss explains this very clearly, even naming the section in his 1840 edition "Die Christologie des Rationalismus" (sect. 147). His description of the "rationalist" Christology is quite clear: they were trying to make Jesus into a person consistent with rationality, or Wissenschaft (empirical knowledge/science/academic study). In doing so, Strauss argued, they have simply shredded their sources, not used them, seeking to create a Christ that ends up "nicht...an welchen die Kirche glaubt". The point, however, is that Strauss is arguing against the more "liberal" Christians seeking to explain Jesus as consistent with modernity, rationalism, and modern scientific epistemology by explaining away or rationalizing all that appeared to be miraculous. He showed this was impossible, as the miracles and wonders are too integral to the gospel.

That was back in the 1830s.


the point I make on topic is that historical Jesus is still up for debate.
Sure. So is everything. The question is whether or not (and for what reasons) people who believe Jesus likely, probably, or clearly did not exist believe what they do. Is it because they are well-informed and those who study this issue in great depth are not? If that were true, we'd expect to see those who have degrees and/or hold positions which are outside of biblical studies (at least in name; a classicist like Alexander is a biblical scholar, even if her degree and specialty is that of a classicist), from historian Donald Akenson (who wrote Saint Saul: A Skeleleton Key to the Historical Jesus) to the many works of Loveday Alexander, not to mention Jewish scholars of ancient Judiams (like Vermes of Neusner), to demonstrate the ignorance of biblical scholars. As they (the other specialists) are knowledgable about the period and free from the would-be biases of a Christian background or the alleged censorship that exists in all N.T., early Christian, and biblical studies departments across the world. But we don't. Instead, we find it expressed by people who misquote their sources, misrepresent their sources, make blatant errors, and who are amateurs. And that's just the ones who actually have sources.


I'm least impressed by Ehrman

Compared to whom? And to what scholarship?
 
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fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Maybe a lot of what we believe took place in ancient times could be reassessed. History is written by the victors, one sided.

Most of our "history" of Jesus comes to us by way of biblical scholars since most of the actual historians won't go near the subject, and biblical scholars get fired for questioning an historical Jesus.

BTW, scholarly works on The Bible are a good read, biblical scholars doing historical Jesus, not so much, and understandably so.
Much of history is being reassessed for that reason (this is nothing new. For at least half a century (I'm thinking specifically starting in the 70's), there has been a push to reassess history, and to see it in a less Euro-centric view. The rise of feminist, gay, black, hispanic, etc theories have greatly widened the manner in which historians view the past. Instead of seeing it simply from the Euro-centric view, there is quite a bit of historical research looking at history through the eyes of those who were conquered, or colonized.

Much of our history of Jesus does come from Biblical scholars. Those scholars though are not just theologians, but are historians. This are simply called Biblical scholars because the focus is Biblical ideas. However, many of these scholars also are experts in other fields as well. When talking about Biblical scholars, one must talk about archeologists, anthropologists, medieval historians, Jewish scholars (Talmudic scholars for example), etc. If you want, I can give you names of some of each. Biblical research is done by a wide array of different individuals in a plethora of different fields.

As for being fired for questioning the historical Jesus, that simply isn't true. G.A. Wells is a great example of this. He was never fired for his views. Granted, someone who doubts the historicity of Jesus probably isn't going to spend the time to get a degree in that field though, and if they do, it is unlikely they will be teaching on the subject since they hold a minority position that simply is not well supported. But if you actually look at Biblical scholars and the like, you will find certain individuals who doubt about everything. It really isn't a problem. Especially when there are Biblical scholars who come out and say that it is basically impossible to know anything about Jesus and leave it at that. There are also many who deny the resurrection and all of that, but still are allowed to teach.

Biblical scholars still read their gospels as if they are reading historical accounts, but then, what else is a scholar to do for their historical Jesus?
That simply is incorrect. Unless one is only looking at the very conservative factions of Biblical scholars (and even generally they don't even take the whole literally), all scholars agree that the Gospels are not 100% accurate and thus can not be read as if they are purely historical accounts. In fact, scholars realize that there is a difference between ancient history, and modern history. Biblical scholars then approach the Gospels as other scholars would approach the ancient bibliographies of Augustus, or the other emperors.

Scholars also generally recognize that we are reading second or third hand accounts at best. That instead of eyewitness accounts, what we have are the products of an oral culture, and these stories were passed down.

Biblical scholars also look at much more than the Gospels though. They look at Paul (in fact, there are a few who put a lot of weight on Paul), Josephus, archeological and anthropological sources, comparisons to other sects of Judaism, etc. It is much more than just looking at the Gospels.

I'm least impressed by Ehrman for reading the gospels into Paul, I find that to be circular due to unnecessary assumptions imposed upon the epistle writers that otherwise appear to be completely unaware of the gospel Jesus from Nazareth. And no, I am not that familiar with Ehrman, other than what I have come across online.
The problem here is that you are not familiar with Ehrman and are trying to state something about his ideas when you don't fully understand them based on a lack of reading. Ehrman has written a few things on Paul. When he talks about Paul, he deals with the actual letters that Paul writes. In fact, if you read his work on the subject, he even states that he disregards much of Acts when it comes to Paul as he acknowledges that Paul and Acts disagree with each other.

Ehrman has also been quite clear that one can not read the Gospels as accurate sources, and that one has to abandon those ideas when reading Paul. Paul has to be read on Paul's own merit. That means not reading Paul through the western lens that has been placed on him, not reading Paul through Acts, and not reading Paul based on other NT texts.

Honestly, I don't see where you get the idea that Ehrman reads the Gospels into Paul, especially when you admit that you are not very familiar with Ehrman.

have a look at the book yourself, there are many appeals to authority just in the introduction alone, it is the vastly predominant line of argument right through the whole book.

for example on page 2: "of the thousands of scholars of early christianity...none of them to my knowledge has any doubts that jesus existed". And you can find hundreds more instances of this exact claim throughout the book, this seems to be the only substantial argument for historical jesus (its the only argument the scholars themselves can think of) - he existed just because scholars refuse to question his existence.
Did you read the entire book? Yes, Ehrman does state that nearly all scholars agree on this subject. However, he has also made it clear that that is not enough evidence for anything. However, if everyone tends to agree on something in a field such a Biblical studies, where there is debate on pretty much every topic, it should make one wonder why. Also, if you read the entire quote, you will see that he was making a statement about the wide array of views on this subject. It wasn't an appeal to authority, it was an introduction to the various types of individuals who support the Jesus myth.

However, on page 4, he states clearly that the fact that most scholars agree that Jesus existed is not proof at all. That in fact, at the end of the day, expert opinion is still opinion.

If you read the book in its entirety, Ehrman does make arguments for the existence of Jesus. He looks at the genre of the Gospels, outside sources, and also shows where the mythicist idea fails.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
There appears to be confusion about Christ myth theory. The Christ or Jesus myth theory can allow for an historical Jesus that gospel writers may have drawn from, however the proponents don't believe that this historical Jesus can be reconstructed because of the myth he is enshrouded in. In addition to that, any historical Jesus from the gospels or Q is distinct from the dying and rising Son of God that the epistle writers were obsessed with. Instead of bothering to reconstruct Jesus, Christ myth theorists look to the beginnings of Christianity and have upset the applecart by questioning the traditional view that has the historical Jesus as the original founder of Christianity. I'm not a proponent of this theory but I am trying to understand it to the best of my ability rather than simply debunk it for the sake of maintaining the tradition view. I bring this up because the quest for the historical Jesus can no longer be discussed without bringing the Christ myth theory into the discussion, as this and many other threads are evidence of.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Instead of bothering to reconstruct Jesus, Christ myth theorists look to the beginnings of Christianity and have upset the applecart by questioning the traditional view that has the historical Jesus as the original founder of Christianity. ...
Talking of "the historical Jesus as the original founder of Christianity" is not so clever sleight of hand or sloppy thinking or both.

As for the rest, what world are you living in? Just who in this mythicist fringe do you claim has "upset the apple cart" and according to whom?
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
There appears to be confusion about Christ myth theory. The Christ or Jesus myth theory can allow for an historical Jesus that gospel writers may have drawn from, however the proponents don't believe that this historical Jesus can be reconstructed because of the myth he is enshrouded in. In addition to that, any historical Jesus from the gospels or Q is distinct from the dying and rising Son of God that the epistle writers were obsessed with. Instead of bothering to reconstruct Jesus, Christ myth theorists look to the beginnings of Christianity and have upset the applecart by questioning the traditional view that has the historical Jesus as the original founder of Christianity. I'm not a proponent of this theory but I am trying to understand it to the best of my ability rather than simply debunk it for the sake of maintaining the tradition view. I bring this up because the quest for the historical Jesus can no longer be discussed without bringing the Christ myth theory into the discussion, as this and many other threads are evidence of.
That apple cart isn't upset by one questioning who the founder of Christianity is. In fact, most scholars agree that Jesus did not found a new religion. Jesus was a Jew, and his followers were Jews as well. A few push the idea of Christianity onto Paul, and others (most) see the formation of Christianity occurring because of strife that was building between two sects of Jews (to put is simply).

Now, the quest for the Historical Jesus can and often is discussed without the Christ myth theory. It really is only on internet forums that the idea of the Christ myth theory ever is even brought up. The reason being that no one in the field actually accepts the idea as it really doesn't hold any water. Since the 1800's, it has just been ignored by most academia.

A number scholars also agree that it is futile to try to reconstruct the life of Jesus as it simply is not possible to do. They accept that this figure existed, but figure it is a waste of time to try to reconstruct him. That does not fall under the Christ-myth theory though. The Christ-myth theory centers around the idea that the character, Jesus of Nazareth, was not an authentic character (as in, he was not historical). There are other streams of that, such as Jesus was a composite character, or that there was a figure who was at the core, but much like King Arthur, was transformed into something very different, to the point that the two figures really can't be related. None of those ideas are accepted by actual scholars though.

Finally, the Jesus as portrayed in the Gospels (Q is hypothetical and I personally don't buy into it) and the epistles (now you actually have to be specific here because many of the epistles don't really deal with the issue) have the basis of a resurrected Jesus.

It is not a dying rising Son of God that is the focus, as the death really isn't key. For example, for Paul, the key is just the resurrection. It isn't simply rising, it is a resurrection that is important, and the meaning in which the infers.

More so, if we look at Mark, we don't necessarily have a literal son of God. Even in the epistles, the term Son of God doesn't mean what you are implying, as it didn't mean a literal son of God. In order to actually understand this, one has to go back to the OT, and the Jewish understanding, and see that even King David was referred to as a son of God, as was Israel. It wasn't literal.

The problem is that mythicists don't read the texts in the historical and cultural context in which they were written, but instead impose outsider's views on to the subject. It simply doesn't work.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
The problem is that mythicists don't read the texts in the historical and cultural context in which they were written, but instead impose outsider's views on to the subject. It simply doesn't work.

Would you say, there is a more clear historical Moses, (or Buddha, Krishna, Abraham...) comparing to Jesus?
 
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