Question about Avatars

[Philomath]

Do you believe the Avatars are literal?

for instance Matsya

do you literally believe he was a fish?

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Do you believe the Avatars are literal?

for instance Matsya

do you literally believe he was a fish?

I think them to be non literal, symbolic, metaphorical, mythological but in some instances i just don't know.

Only a true Bhakta maybe can understand the Avtar system.

 

[Viraja]

I believe that avatars are literal. It again and again reminds me how many zillions of years our earth has been around, (how many kalpas) and of the many wonders that have happened very long time ago that no more happens now, though we are provided with the facilities of the electronic age.

Blessed you are, to think of the holy Matsyavatara on the eve of Sri Janmashtami. (for our sect today is the eve of).

 

[KrsnaDasa]

Yes, I take them to be literal. This Kali Yuga is the least mystical of the yugas, so many more miraculous things have happened in the yugas past. Yogis with mystical Siddhis, men and women who have fully memorized scripture, incredibly long life spans, powerful mantras that have massive effects in this material world. And God is God, if he wanted to, he could incarnate Himself as anything, even a banana. So Him incarnating as a fish is something God is capable of and something that would have been appropriate at the time.

Back in the past yugas, technology wasn't needed, the Vedas weren't written down because of incredible memory, we supposedly lived longer. The more we evolve in technological terms really just shows how much we have fallen as beings, we need computers because of our memories not being too good, we need technologies to help keep us alive, and etc etc.

 

[Poeticus]

The more we evolve in technological terms really just shows how much we have fallen as beings, we need computers because of our memories not being too good, we need technologies to help keep us alive, and etc etc.

That is an interesting way to look at it.

...

Yes, I believe the avatāra-s to be not only literal, but metaphorical and spiritual as well. Good question!

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't believe in avatars period, literal, metaphorical, or otherwise. Saivism doesn't have avatars. So it's fine for Vaishnavas, because it's a Vaishnava concept.

 

[Kalicharan Tuvij]

I don't believe in avatars period, literal, metaphorical, or otherwise. Saivism doesn't have avatars. So it's fine for Vaishnavas, because it's a Vaishnava concept.

SF is a Saiva, still believes in Avatāras; in a recent activity he has been again caught with illegal possession of RāmāyaNa, while on a run. Let us expel him from the Saiva community. And though I am a fence-sitter, I will be the cheerleader in this

...we need computers because of our memories not being too good, we need technologies to help keep us alive, and etc etc.

Heck, and I thought we need to memorise little now because today technology...

Do you believe the Avatars are literal?

for instance Matsya..

do you literally believe he was a fish?

btw, I am noticing day by day the Sādhu in your avatār is zooming out?:sad:

re Matsya Avatāra:
Vishnu ji taking Avatāra (incarnating on Earth), for the purpose of evolution, is a concept laid out in no less than RgVeda itself (I can give quotes if reqd). He is said to take "steps of Freedom". His steps, though manifest within the boundaries of the material world (ref: RgVeda), traverse upon the other realms also, in a very mystic way. His steps are further said to be three in number broadly, which clearly include Earth (Prithv&#299, Heaven (Dyo) and Antariksha (?), even though his "lofty station", or his rest-place, is said to be in the fourth realm (Samudra).

Now, since all of these: Prithvī, Dyo and Antariksha have triune aspects, it amounts to 3*3 = 9 avatāras, the tenth being Kalki (but un-manifest, at least until now).

Again, the "stories" related to these various Avatāras is rich and varied, and mind boggling in the sense that all this material, narrated in a matter-of-factly manner, falls in place.

You can say, "urban legends", but hard to deny the historicity of at least some of the Avatāras. Also, as SatyamaveJayanti has rightly pointed out, a true bhakta knows in his heart fully the significance of these manifestations. To use the words of Vinayaka, the bhakta is able to attune himself to all the varied "vibrations" (all distinct from each other) of the Avatāras, and the cosmological "story" of evolution is thus replicated inside the being of the bhakta.

A yogi can understand even more (like your Sādhu), I guess. To sum it up, regarding Matsya Avatāra, we can see the phenomenon as the saving or evolving of life forms from sheer inertia of material forces on one hand and the looming danger of even that tiny material existence being rolled back into the devouring Samudra.

 

[Vinayaka]

SF is a Saiva, still believes in Avatāras; in a recent activity he has been again caught with illegal possession of RāmāyaNa, while on a run. Let us expel him from the Saiva community. And though I am a fence-sitter, I will be the cheerleader in this

The diversity of Hinduism needs to be expressed. Perhaps I should have written: "In my very narrow and narrow-minded tiny world of a particular sampradaya and parampara within Saivism, we don't hold the concept of avatar."

That being said, there is a ton of overlap in individuals because of the way the world is these days. We are often exposed to many sects and schools all at the same time. When this happens, there is often what is termed horizontal transfer in educational circles, meaning ... taking a concept from one area of thought, and applying it to another. So when the Wikipedias and general introductions to Hinduism speak of various concepts like avatar fro example, people just assume it applies to all Hindus. Each individual is entitled to their own view. But basically I just wanted to let Philomath know that there was a third option ... the oft used 'none of the above'.

 

[ShivaFan]

Namaste Philomath

I think your question perhaps might be, do you think the forms, murtis, manifestations, emanations, incarnations, personifications and impersonalizations of the Devas and Devi are real or just symbolism (such as "do you believe Gsnesh is an 'elephant' or just an allegory of faith" and not just a question of whether the Vishnu avatars are real), yes?

If I am misunderstanding, correct me, perhaps you question may be specific to the "non-human-like" forms of the Vishnu avatars and not the "non-human-like" forms of Devas and Devi in general.


Generally, humans have only one or two names. But you will notice a Devata may have thousands of names. For example, you may have a chant or hymn such as the "1008 Names of Shiva".

The Devas and Devi, as they communion with others or manifest to others or engage within and without have many names and forms. And now think about yourself - technology is allowing humans to communicate with others all over the wor,d and withun certain subjects of consciousness, this very forum is an example of that. And in this forum, your have yet another name "Philomath" and in one way even another face "Sadhu". I may meet you oneday, but you will always also be Philomath and Sadhu face to me. Soon, in this world today, you may have many names. I am authoring a book, and I plan on using ShivaFan as part of my "pen name", a common practice among authors including Mark Twain which was his pen name but his so-called birth name was Sam Clemens. But no one calls him Sam, but Mark, today and forever.

But you are yourself. I have 3 names, but I am myself (hopefully for now). Ronald Reagan once said, "We now live in the age of many names, many relationships". While I would not use Reagan as an example of a Hindu savant, it does seem that this age is indeed becoming one of many names. As you expand your relations in this world and this age, you may soon have many names. And who knows? Perhaps many forms.

The Devas and Devi are real.

Om Namah Sivaya

 

[Kalicharan Tuvij]

..In my very narrow and narrow-minded tiny world of a particular sampradaya and parampara within Saivism..

Vinayaka ji and Narrow. Hmm. First thing a newcomer learns here on RF is to not take your lines at their face value, and then it is all struggle..

..such as "do you believe Gsnesh is an 'elephant' or just an allegory of faith" and not just a question of whether the Vishnu avatars are real), yes?..

I agree. The least an artist can do is to give the Deities all sorts of forms, that do some justice to them.

 

[Jainarayan]

I think them to be non literal, symbolic, metaphorical, mythological but in some instances i just don't know.

Bucking the common Vaishnava beliefs, I feel the same way as you.

Only a true Bhakta maybe can understand the Avtar system.

Even then, it's a matter of faith and devotion, not intellectually knowing.

 

[Poeticus]

I don't believe in avatars period, literal, metaphorical, or otherwise. Saivism doesn't have avatars. So it's fine for Vaishnavas, because it's a Vaishnava concept.

The diversity of Hinduism needs to be expressed. Perhaps I should have written: "In my very narrow and narrow-minded tiny world of a particular sampradaya and parampara within Saivism, we don't hold the concept of avatar."

That being said, there is a ton of overlap in individuals because of the way the world is these days. We are often exposed to many sects and schools all at the same time. When this happens, there is often what is termed horizontal transfer in educational circles, meaning ... taking a concept from one area of thought, and applying it to another. So when the Wikipedias and general introductions to Hinduism speak of various concepts like avatar fro example, people just assume it applies to all Hindus. Each individual is entitled to their own view. But basically I just wanted to let Philomath know that there was a third option ... the oft used 'none of the above'.

Vinayaka, you are not alone. There are millions of Shaivas that believe in what you believe. Millions.

I am authoring a book, and I plan on using ShivaFan as part of my "pen name"

ShivaFan, I better be the first one to receive that book in the mail, free of charge, homie. Sike, I'll definitely pay for it - but, I better be the first one to get a paid copy.

 

[Vinayaka]

You saved the best for last. Despite some people's attribution of 'merely symbolic' I think this is this is the one important overriding belief that is held by all bhaktars.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram satyamevajayanti ji :namaste

I think them to be non literal, symbolic, metaphorical, mythological but in some instances i just don't know.

jai jai , someone wise enough to say ..... '' i just don't know. ''

Only a true Bhakta maybe can understand the Avtar system.

jai jai , again prabhu ji :namaste

 

[ratikala]

Do you believe the Avatars are literal?

for instance Matsya

do you literally believe he was a fish?

jai jai of course each apperance or decent of the lord comes to perform a function, we may later read it as metaphorical but if our little earth planet is spinning out of control , who can save it ?

varaha ki jai :bow:

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram viraja ji :namaste

I believe that avatars are literal. It again and again reminds me how many zillions of years our earth has been around, (how many kalpas)

jai jai , what I feel is hard for many to understand is that this earth planet and its civilisations are so much older than our modern science has yet found evidence for ... and in that time so many changes it has gone through , so many cataclysms have befallen this earth and so many times we have been rescued by the lord , and each time we forget the previous age , only accounts which take the form of stories remain to be handed down by the faithfull . ... and as the yugas change our capacity for understanding diminishes , .....

and of the many wonders that have happened very long time ago that no more happens now, though we are provided with the facilities of the electronic age.

and so obsessed are we with our selves that we think our small discoveries to be the wonders ?


what do you mean true wonders dont still happen ...??? ....

:bow:

 

[Viraja]

namaskaram viraja ji :namaste

jai jai , what I feel is hard for many to understand is that this earth planet and its civilisations are so much older than our modern science has yet found evidence for ... and in that time so many changes it has gone through , so many cataclysms have befallen this earth and so many times we have been rescued by the lord , and each time we forget the previous age , only accounts which take the form of stories remain to be handed down by the faithfull . ... and as the yugas change our capacity for understanding diminishes , .....

Yes, that is very true, it is said back in Satya/Treta yugas, man was over 7 ft tall and lived much longer than now, with a photographic memory... the divine made itself easily accessible in the form of taking avataras amongst men those days and showing them the way... It is actually said 20,000 yrs from now that man's lifespan is going to be only some 20+ yrs..!

and so obsessed are we with our selves that we think our small discoveries to be the wonders ?


what do you mean true wonders dont still happen ...??? ....

:bow:

I mean wonders like flying chariots (pushpaka vimana) and talking monkeys.

But, I described my family's adventure in the 'Devi' thread -- it indeed did happen that my grandmother was a very fond devotee of Sridevi Karumariamma and went to her temple for 40 yrs - and devi in her prashna guaranteed to send a Brahmana to assist my mom with finding job and a Brahmana by the same name that my grandma hardly knew came himself and helped my mother get a job. Actually a few more things also happened as predicted... I do not know if these days anybody does these things and how far they are effective, but to my grandmother it happened.. which shows some wonders still happen. :namaste

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram krsna dasa ji :namaste

Yes, I take them to be literal. This Kali Yuga is the least mystical of the yugas, so many more miraculous things have happened in the yugas past. Yogis with mystical Siddhis, men and women who have fully memorized scripture, incredibly long life spans, powerful mantras that have massive effects in this material world. And God is God, if he wanted to, he could incarnate Himself as anything, even a banana. So Him incarnating as a fish is something God is capable of and something that would have been appropriate at the time.

or even a lion ...

jai jai narasimha :bow:

Back in the past yugas, technology wasn't needed, the Vedas weren't written down because of incredible memory, we supposedly lived longer. The more we evolve in technological terms really just shows how much we have fallen as beings, we need computers because of our memories not being too good, we need technologies to help keep us alive, and etc etc.

it is not just that our lives are shorter , it is also that we waste them obsessing about noncence , we have lost the taste for devotion , it is for this reason that there are not that many with sufficient bhakti to fully understand the magnificance of the lord , or his ability to manifest when ever and as what ever he likes , that is why he can reside in even the smallest murti in the most humble home of his true devotee :bow:

 

[Poeticus]

I mean wonders like flying chariots (pushpaka vimana)

B-b-b-but, fly-fl-f-flying c-c-cars in the future seems like a pr-p-pr-pro-probability!!!

 

[Viraja]

B-b-b-but, fly-fl-f-flying c-c-cars in the future seems like a pr-p-pr-pro-probability!!!

In early Kali-yuga, may be such wonders will happen, 'cause if we think seriously there is nothing left yet to be discovered, and I wonder what will the future really be able to discover at all! (Because it is early Kali-yuga, all these modern wonders in the name of discoveries are happening... as man is still capable of 'thinking').