Question about Bush

[Mr Spinkles]

I agree with you, Maize--there is no secular reasoning behind not allowing gays the right to marry, only religious reasoning. Governments imposing religious laws restricts freedom and has caused much strife throughout history. That's why our country was founded on the idea that a government established by humans should only enforce secular laws--let god enforce divine laws (I don't think He needs our help ).

 

[Mister Emu]

However to determine it`s intent you must take it in context and in the context it is used physically large is how it is interpreted,

By you maybe, when I read the KJV it is clear to me it means mental strength.

By me and every English translation of the Book

KJV linwood, does not translate it as that at all.

Now..for the umpteenth time would you please tell me whether you agree that the Christian Publishers of almost every english translation seemed to agree with my interpretation.

No I do not agree, I have not read all the versions. The ones I have, KJV, Douoy-Rheims, New Revised Standard, and New International versions and the New English Translation do not agree with you(though the KJV does not agree with the NIV, NRSV, NET, and DRV). I bet if I read more most of them, they would not agree with you either.

If your answer is no I would like you to tell me why they so obviously and blatently twisted the verse in order to avoid the impropriety of homosexuality.

They don't, they translate it differently than you. I am not a scholar of ancient Hebrew so I don't have the credentials to critize them.

If you like I will start another thread and re-post the correct translation in English and all the blatent intentional mistranslations in other English versions so you can reach an opinion based on the actual text.

If you want, I have read the Hebrew and english so I know how it can be translated.

Yes.

No

rips babies from their mothers wombs

Could you show me the verses.

, kills children for his own ego,

Same as above.

slaughters entire cultures

UnGodly cultures that conspired to destroy His chosen people

, and condones and even orders rape.

Please show me where.

Of course you do considering the supreme court is at this point in time the only thing keeping this country from becoming a Christian theocracy.
It`s obvious you`d think they`re too powerful.

Eliminate their power and we can chuck all those homos and athiests into their rightful second class citizen role and be done with it!

Oh..Muslims and Budhists too.
And many others.

You negelected to notice

f it was full of conservative Christian justices, they would still hold too much

 

[DrM]

Why do we wish to punish or scorn people because of their orientation? This is tantamount to holding a grudge against people with blue eyes or who are short or tall. None of us have a choice in these areas. If the problem is the label of marriage, then we can call it something else. But I think the same people who are against homosexual marriage would also be against any kind of life-long relationship for them regardless of what its called.

 

[linwood]

By you maybe, when I read the KJV it is clear to me it means mental strength.

KJV linwood, does not translate it as that at all.

No I do not agree, I have not read all the versions. The ones I have, KJV, Douoy-Rheims, New Revised Standard, and New International versions and the New English Translation do not agree with you(though the KJV does not agree with the NIV, NRSV, NET, and DRV). I bet if I read more most of them, they would not agree with you either.

They don't, they translate it differently than you. I am not a scholar of ancient Hebrew so I don't have the credentials to critize them.

If you want, I have read the Hebrew and english so I know how it can be translated.

Since it seems we`re destined to re-hash this eternally I`ve posted my thoughts in a new thread here...

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3561

You and anyone else who cares to discuss it can go there..it`s off topic here.

No

Yes

Could you show me the verses.

Certainly..

Hsa 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Same as above.

Of course.

1Sa 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.
Jos 10:39 And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that [were] therein; he left none remaining: as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to the king thereof; as he had done also to Libnah, and to her king.
Deu 20:16-17 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee [for] an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
2Ki 2:23-24 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them
Psa 135:8Who smote the firstborn of Egypt, both of man and beast.
Psa 137:9 Happy [shall he be], that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Inspiring!!
What does "Thy little ones" mean?
I wonder.

I could literally find examples of God brutally killing children all day but my fingers are beginning to tire so this will have to suffice.

UnGodly cultures that conspired to destroy His chosen people

uh huh..
This doesn`t particularly inspire me to love for your god considering I myself am considered "UnGodly".
In fact my entire family is worthy of death by your gods standards.
Me,my wife, my two teen boys, and the most adorable loving little 4 year old girl you`ve ever seen all deserve horrible brutal deaths according to your gods moral standing.
Especially that damn 14 year old Wiccan heathen I have here!

Answer this question for me Mr.emu.
Did every German citizen alive in 1938-1944 deserve to die because of the holocaust?
According to your God they did, even the tiny little newborn babes in the Berlin Hospital deserved death according to your logic.
Do you believe this ?
Can you harmonize that?
Please don`t ignore that question.

Please show me where.

We`ve already beaten the slaughter of the Midianites to death.
I can only re-hash one thing at a time.

You negelected to notice...
even if it was full of conservative Christian justices, they would still hold too much

I didn`t neglect to notice your statement, I don`t believe it really matters.
While I would rather there be a balance of personal beliefs on the bench history tells me that even conservative christian supreme court judges come down on the side of the constitution when pressed.

It seems they even value justice above the Bible in most cases.
In other words I don`t want to see the supreme court prohibited from ruling on anything.
Even if the entire bench is stacked with conservative Christian judges.
It still beats weakening the court.

 

[Mister Emu]

Inspiring!!
What does "Thy little ones" mean?
I wonder.

Nowhere is it for His ego.

uh huh..
This doesn`t particularly inspire me to love for your god considering I myself am considered "UnGodly".
In fact my entire family is worthy of death by your gods standards.
Me,my wife, my two teen boys, and the most adorable loving little 4 year old girl you`ve ever seen all deserve horrible brutal deaths according to your gods moral standing.
Especially that damn 14 year old Wiccan heathen I have here!

Answer this question for me Mr.emu.
Did every German citizen alive in 1938-1944 deserve to die because of the holocaust?
According to your God they did, even the tiny little newborn babes in the Berlin Hospital deserved death according to your logic.
Do you believe this ?
Can you harmonize that?
Please don`t ignore that question.

God in the OT mainly showed His vengence and might, and total abhorance of sin. Since Jesus came He mainly shows His mercy and love. In the New Covenant we are not supposed to hurt anyone.

I didn`t neglect to notice your statement, I don`t believe it really matters.
While I would rather there be a balance of personal beliefs on the bench history tells me that even conservative christian supreme court judges come down on the side of the constitution when pressed.

It seems they even value justice above the Bible in most cases.
In other words I don`t want to see the supreme court prohibited from ruling on anything.
Even if the entire bench is stacked with conservative Christian judges.
It still beats weakening the court.

Ok, let me rephrase it, even if it were full of conservative Christians who followed the Bible in every circumstance, I would still think they have too much power.

Oh and

Yes

No

 

[linwood]

Nowhere is it for His ego.

Thats arguable.
The people living in Palestine were killed because they worshipped the wrong god which is what made them evil.
God thought they shouldn`t be worshipping anyone but him so he slaughtered them.
He also slaughtered them for their land and for some very foggy notion of conspiring against Israel.

God in the OT mainly showed His vengence and might, and total abhorance of sin. Since Jesus came He mainly shows His mercy and love. In the New Covenant we are not supposed to hurt anyone.

I know I`ve read them.
It`s one of the things about the Bible that I`d call inconsistent.

So by your reasoning it was morally correct and justifiable to slaughter the children of Midea and God knows how many other cultures because God said so.

Now since the NT it is immoral to kill because God said so.

Sounds like Gods changing the rules to suit his purpose.

However, this would imply a change of heart by God.
How do you explain this change in a god that is omnipotent never wrong and eternally rightous?

There are only two choices here.

1> It is moral to slaughter innocents if you have a reason.
2> It is never moral to slaughter innocents for any reason.

You cannot have both.

 

[anders]

linwood,

I'll have a closer look at the Jonathan-David affair as soon as I have finished a paper for Religious studies showing that the Sodom story has nothing whatsoever to do with homosexuality.

God in the OT mainly showed His vengence and might, and total abhorance of sin. Since Jesus came He mainly shows His mercy and love. In the New Covenant we are not supposed to hurt anyone.

So why don't Christians just scrap the OT? Nobody adheres to more than a selected few of the rules, so what's the use of keeping it?

 

[Sunstone]

In a religion course I took some years ago the professor argued that the main reason the OT was kept in the cannon by the early Christians was because of its prophecies foretelling the Messiah. That is, it was kept so the Christians could point to what they took as the proofs that Jesus was the Messiah as foretold in the OT.

 

[Pah]

Didn't know about that case [Loving v Virginia]. I'll look it up.

You might want to bone up on Meyer v. Nebraska ("the right of the individual to contract, to engage in any of the common occupations of life, to acquire useful knowledge, to marry, establish a home and bring up children, to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience, and generally to enjoy those privileges long recognized at common law as essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.") and Skinner v. Oklahoma ("We are dealing here with legislation which involves one of the basic civil rights of man. Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race") as well.

I'll mention that each of these case, perhaps new to you also, have dozens of citations that affirm that marriage is a right, a right recognized by the state derived from common law.

-pah-

 

[linwood]

I'll have a closer look at the Jonathan-David affair as soon as I have finished a paper for Religious studies showing that the Sodom story has nothing whatsoever to do with homosexuality.

I`d be interested in seeing that if it were at all possible.

I`ve posted some of my thoughts on Jonathan and David elsewhere in the Biblical Debates forum if you get the time to have a look and critique it.