Question about hallucinatory substance.

[Spirit of Light]

But doesn't *all* perception alter the truth to some extent?

until all attachments to the physical world have been let go of, yes there will be some distortion because we still will be judging when we see. but as soon no more judging happens the full truth (at the level of truth you are on in the meditation will be THE truth) You will see it as it actually is.

 

[Polymath257]

I do want to remind people of rule 6. No discussion of personal involvement in anything violating US Federal law is allowed. So be careful!

 

[Polymath257]

until all attachments to the physical world have been let go of, yes there will be some distortion because we still will be judging when we see. but as soon no more judging happens the full truth (at the level of truth you are on in the meditation will be THE truth) You will see it as it actually is.

So is it possible that entheogen use is helpful at an early stage to point to how to let go of attachments?

 

[SalixIncendium]

As far as I know Buddhists do not use hallucinatory substances. What are you referring to? Are you referring in incense?

Some ancient cultures and odd cults use things like mushrooms, in general not Buddhists.

I do not consider cannabis a hallucinatory nor narcotic substance, and not generally used by Buddhists.

You might want to reread the OP. The topic isn't about Buddhists using hallucinogenics. It about the use of hallucinogenics in general to attain altered states of consciousness vs. doing so by achieving meditative states.

 

[wellwisher]

Back in the 1960's and 1970's, various drugs were used to explore alternate states and realms of consciousness. This movement appeared as a counter point to the mass mind of culture. The mass mind is connected to the external cultural programing, that molds the personality of its citizens. This is done via education, media, Hollywood and propaganda, to create an external learning matrix that molds the citizens. This makes everyone acts in a generic way, implicit of the culture or sub culture.

Back then, it was felt that the mass mind was not good for you, since it was still war mongering, did not accept everyone, and was based on political gaming by self serving leaders; tricky Dick. To break the cycle of mass mind programming, a movement appeared, led by professors like Timothy Leary, who suggested turning inward, toward altered states of consciousness. Once there, one could shut out the programming of the mass mind.

This new movement was connected to exploring the inner world of the personality firmware. The hope was to find a better place, than then mass mind. The 1960's slogan was turn-on, tune-in and drop-out. Get high, find a new happy place, and then go there to exist; become renewed. The love generation was part of that renewal.

Drugs were an easy way to experience altered states of reality. Drugs allowed anyone, who wanted to, to have a direct experience of such things, to know they were real. Magic mushrooms; turn-on, might overlap reality, with a visual trip; hallucination. Knowing one just ate the mush, you would learn to differentiate this inner vision, as separate from physical reality; tune-in. Drop out was the movement inward away, from the external programing of the mass mind, in favor of the drug induced inner reality; repeat.

Although the drugs could get you there, once there, one was not in the best state of mind to explore, analyze and and develop this, further. The various techniques of eastern philosophy and meditation, as well as native American rituals, became popular and could prepare one. Meditation became popular and was used in conjunction with the drugs to make the inner world more educational.

I did not do any of the hard drugs, besides marijuana. I was afraid it could mess up my brain and intellect. There were side affects I could see. Instead, I became a baby sitter, for the mystical explorers, to keep them safe in cases of a bad trip. I would talk to them and learned from their experiences. I learned that there was an inner world, I had never known about, or learned from culture. It opened my mind to future experiments that I would someday induce directly on my unconscious mind.

The drug problem today is similar, but it is not about the same target. It is still used to create an altered perception of reality. However, it is not to learn about alternate states and the unconscious mind. Now it is about changing perception away from the hash reality of a divided mass mind, in favor of a more peaceful and fun inner sanctuary. This drug induced sanctuary is not stable, since it is chemically induced, and the mind has not developed the skills to refine it. It can become a prison; Stockholm syndrome.

 

[Spirit of Light]

So is it possible that entheogen use is helpful at an early stage to point to how to let go of attachments?

No when starting to learn meditation from a true master you get noted that all form of substance that can alter the consiousness will no longer be good for us. and the true master will also inform that if we should try using something it will more damage our spiritual path then help us.

 

[Spirit of Light]

From what i have seen from people done drugs it is not fun, its more scary.
When in deep meditation the bliss that occure is a feeling that is not possible to use words on, because it is no work we have that can explain it, it must be experienced.

I can only speak for my self, but i would not try any drugs to try find the difference between drugs and meditation. i found what i seeking within meditaton

 

[BilliardsBall]

I have learned over some time that some spiritual practices and practitioneirs use sometimes Hallucinatory substance. As a Buddhist i do not use any of this thing.

But my question is.

When you can learn to see the same things and experience beings in the same way in meditation as they can do by use of hallucinatory substance, why do you think some would still use it?

Personally i do not judge those who take the "easy path" but i still wonder why they chose it?
Can we have a discussion on it?

The Greek word "pharmakeia" means "drugs/alcohol". Under the influence, people are open to possession--that's the main issue. This shows in their behavior--and in drug user experiences "I've seen God, I've seen the Devil..."

 

[sun rise]

When you can learn to see the same things and experience beings in the same way in meditation as they can do by use of hallucinatory substance, why do you think some would still use it?

Drugs are like thinking you're climbing a mountain rather than actually climbing the mountain. They are a delusion into illusion. The Buddhist term that applies is makyo.

As to why people do it - thrill seeking, the illusion that it gets you somewhere (very common in my younger days), just wanting to party and so forth.

The Greek word "pharmakeia" means "drugs/alcohol". Under the influence, people are open to possession

A friend who was psychic reported seeing just that on Telegraph Ave in Berkeley during the late 1960's.

 

[wizanda]

Drugs are like thinking you're climbing a mountain rather than actually climbing the mountain.

Entheogens are a quicker method to make us aware there is a doorway with an elevator to the top... Same happens at death via DMT released by the brain.

In my opinion.

 

[Father Heathen]

I have learned over some time that some spiritual practices and practitioneirs use sometimes Hallucinatory substance. As a Buddhist i do not use any of this thing.

But my question is.

When you can learn to see the same things and experience beings in the same way in meditation as they can do by use of hallucinatory substance, why do you think some would still use it?

Personally i do not judge those who take the "easy path" but i still wonder why they chose it?
Can we have a discussion on it?

I don't think meditation alone can recreate the effects that one would get from a generous dose of psilocybin. I image this sort of subject is difficult to convey in words, especially if one is "uninitiated".

 

[Spirit of Light]

I don't think meditation alone can recreate the effects that one would get from a generous dose of psilocybin. I image this sort of subject is difficult to convey in words, especially if one is "uninitiated".

Well after more then 20 years of meditation i found that the mind is very special and can be altered in many ways, but all this i found without any form of phycidelics or drugs. To me the clear mind is the most pure truth i have found. And what i seen and experienced with different enteties i met in meditation take time to accept and not be afraid of. Since i have not tried drugs i can not say how someone would react to same experience

 

[QuestioningMind]

I have learned over some time that some spiritual practices and practitioneirs use sometimes Hallucinatory substance. As a Buddhist i do not use any of this thing.

But my question is.

When you can learn to see the same things and experience beings in the same way in meditation as they can do by use of hallucinatory substance, why do you think some would still use it?

Personally i do not judge those who take the "easy path" but i still wonder why they chose it?
Can we have a discussion on it?

That's kind of like asking, if you can get the answer to a complex mathematical problem using an abacus, why would you use a computer? I suppose the same could be asked of you. If you can get the same results using a substance, why would you still use meditation?

 

[arthra]

I have learned over some time that some spiritual practices and practitioneirs use sometimes Hallucinatory substance. As a Buddhist i do not use any of this thing.

Baha'is are forbidden to use hallucinatory substances:

"Heroin, hashish and other derivatives of cannabis such as
marijuana, as well as hallucinogenic agents such as LSD,
peyote and similar substances, are regarded as falling under
this prohibition."

~ Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 237

 

[Twilight Hue]

Basically the bottom line is if you put garbage in your head, you're simply going the experience this as a person with garbage in one's head.

 

[Twilight Hue]

That's kind of like asking, if you can get the answer to a complex mathematical problem using an abacus, why would you use a computer? I suppose the same could be asked of you. If you can get the same results using a substance, why would you still use meditation?

That's what a lot of people are led to believe and I think you nailed the crux of the issue here.

So it certainly come across as no surprise whatsoever to end up seeing all these silly gadgets and techniques being pushed all over the place purporting that such experiences are somehow something unique and special, or just a plain easy and quick shortcut to that ever elusive and enlightening Shambhala.

 

[Spirit of Light]

That's kind of like asking, if you can get the answer to a complex mathematical problem using an abacus, why would you use a computer? I suppose the same could be asked of you. If you can get the same results using a substance, why would you still use meditation?

That is easy to answer, Life has no short cuts. And same with meditation there are no shortcuts to the real truth within meditation. Useage of substance is only a false shortcut

 

[Thief]

"easy path"

well....I haven't been there
haven't done that

so....I can't speak from experience to say ....it's wrong

but on the other hand......I have dreams
and the chemistry is much the same

the experience is the same....yes it is

it just happens in the safety of my bed....with my eyes close

that's pretty....easy

now if you would like a thread about what I 'see'.....
not so....easy

 

[Spirit of Light]

well....I haven't been there
haven't done that

so....I can't speak from experience to say ....it's wrong

but on the other hand......I have dreams
and the chemistry is much the same

the experience is the same....yes it is

it just happens in the safety of my bed....with my eyes close

that's pretty....easy

now if you would like a thread about what I 'see'.....
not so....easy

I do not know what you mean by this post, but i guess its about you think meditation is a easy way too? After 20 years i can tell you it is not an easy path. To know you self from within take ears to understand because you peal of layer by layer utill the real you arise. and what you thought self was, turn out to be not at all what it look like.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I have learned over some time that some spiritual practices and practitioneirs use sometimes Hallucinatory substance. As a Buddhist i do not use any of this thing.

But my question is.

When you can learn to see the same things and experience beings in the same way in meditation as they can do by use of hallucinatory substance, why do you think some would still use it?

Personally i do not judge those who take the "easy path" but i still wonder why they chose it?
Can we have a discussion on it?

Hello. My understanding is we can only spiritually advance through the practice of virtues, service to others and meditation and not any earthly substances. Detachment is one of the prerequisites for spiritual growth I believe so using these would be self defeating.