Question about Heaven II

[rojse]

It is a common refrain from certain people within the RF community that those whom do not believe in God are going to hell. Yes, I know this is not shared by everyone.

It is also quite common to hear that those whom are of a religious nature that they have received some evidence of God's existence, even if this evidence is only based on their own personal experiences. Those that do not believe (myself included) have not received any evidence that would allow us to believe, and many atheists (myself included here too) have said that they would reconsider their religious positions should they receive evidence that would change their viewpoint.

All of these comments raise an interesting question for those whom assert that those whom do not believe in God will not go to Heaven. God has given those whom now believe proof of his existence, and has not given those whom disbelieve proof. From these statements, we should presume that God has decided whom he wants with him in Heaven or not.

Now, is there anything wrong with my logic? If so, what is it?

 

[Iman]

It is a common refrain from certain people within the RF community that those whom do not believe in God are going to hell. Yes, I know this is not shared by everyone.

It is also quite common to hear that those whom are of a religious nature that they have received some evidence of God's existence, even if this evidence is only based on their own personal experiences. Those that do not believe (myself included) have not received any evidence that would allow us to believe, and many atheists (myself included here too) have said that they would reconsider their religious positions should they receive evidence that would change their viewpoint.

All of these comments raise an interesting question for those whom assert that those whom do not believe in God will not go to Heaven. God has given those whom now believe proof of his existence, and has not given those whom disbelieve proof. From these statements, we should presume that God has decided whom he wants with him in Heaven or not.

Now, is there anything wrong with my logic? If so, what is it?

What I believe is wrong with this logic is that what you may fail to perceive as evidence of God's invervention in your life, others may believe is God's hand showing them the way. It is all within you. You are the one who decides how much of God you experienced throughout your life. That, however, does not mean that you cannot find God through active searching for Him. For me personally, I see God at every turn in my life, but more importantly I cannot accept a random world and a random existence that stops as soon as my heart stops beating.

 

[BucephalusBB]

..but more importantly I cannot accept a random world and a random existence that stops as soon as my heart stops beating.

Look very good to this world and you'll see there is only little that is random..

 

[Iman]

Look very good to this world and you'll see there is only little that is random..

Under the assumption that there is no higher deity, the world happened by chance, and my own existence has no meaning beyond its physical dimension. We all know that there are physical laws and inner patterns and I suppose that atheists rely too heavily on that to dilute the intellectual need for a higher intelligence that put forth all the systems that regulate physical being. I , personally, cannot accept that and I suppose this is the line that separates theists from atheists.

 

[zenzero]

Friend rojse,

Question about Heaven II
It is a common refrain from certain people within the RF community that those whom do not believe in God are going to hell. Yes, I know this is not shared by everyone.

It is also quite common to hear that those whom are of a religious nature that they have received some evidence of God's existence, even if this evidence is only based on their own personal experiences. Those that do not believe (myself included) have not received any evidence that would allow us to believe, and many atheists (myself included here too) have said that they would reconsider their religious positions should they receive evidence that would change their viewpoint.

All of these comments raise an interesting question for those whom assert that those whom do not believe in God will not go to Heaven. God has given those whom now believe proof of his existence, and has not given those whom disbelieve proof. From these statements, we should presume that God has decided whom he wants with him in Heaven or not.

Now, is there anything wrong with my logic? If so, what is it?

Personally consider myself RELIGIOUS yet only accpt god as a concpt so is heaven and hell.
What IS, is only HERE-NOW; no past or future.

What is wrong with your logic; you could to figure it out.

Love & rgds

 

[native3]

first of all let me clear one thing... God will be present with everyone to get experienced...... it just depends on you how much you trust or believe in god and experience him.... making it more clear God dosen't need any EVIDENCE to proove his existance... we are all living in this world... its enough proof i hope...

but talking about Heaven and Hell Concepts... well just it decideds on the Sins you have done... its hell or heaven you experience it here itself..... good deeds good things happen to you consider it heaven bad deeds hell simple....

as far as your logic that some say those who believe in God goes to hell... no one says about it.... believing God is left to you... its your wish to believe or not....

but believing in god and going in his path of light will surely lead you to heaven thats garunteed.... but not believing does not mean it will lead to hell... we believe god so that we can do good things and kind acts and be in a good path.... if you dont believe in god and still be in the Good path i see no Difference at all.... Doing Good Things is the first step near to god than any other things.....

so Good is Heaven and Bad is Hell..

 

[ChristineES]

I am not going to answer anything about your logic, I am not a logical person by nature. Instead I will say this about "Heaven"
1. No one returns from the dead, so where they go would remain a mystery
2. Only God knows who is going to Heaven
3. Heaven is a union with God, they way I translate.
4. I may see people in Heaven I would not expect to see. In fact, I am sure of that. God works in mysterious ways.
5. I don't know what Heaven truly is. I don't think anyone truly does.

 

[Katzpur]

God has given those whom now believe proof of his existence, and has not given those whom disbelieve proof. From these statements, we should presume that God has decided whom he wants with him in Heaven or not.

Now, is there anything wrong with my logic? If so, what is it?

I'm not convinced that God has given anybody proof of His existance. I believe He has given us evidence, but not everyone views that evidence the same way. Seriously, I don't believe that God wants us to believe in Him because we have proof. If He did, I think He's make His existance so clear that none of us could deny it. Of course, my religion doesn't teach that everybody who doesn't believe in God goes to Hell, so maybe my opinion won't count for much. But, for what it's worth... I don't believe that death is the final curtain. It's more of an intermission. After death, but before we are resurrected, we will continue to exist as cognizant beings and will be able to continue to learn new things. I'm sure we'll all be able to see things from a different perspective than we do now.

Suppose, for instance, that you were to die. I'm guessing that you believe that death is "THE END," that you will simply cease to exist at the moment you draw your last breath. Well, what if you were wrong. Suppose you were to simply pass from one realm of existance to another one, and were to find that you hadn't ceased to exist at all. Suppose you no longer had a body, but were fully aware of the world around you. Suppose you could still reason, you still had emotions, and could still make decisions. Now maybe you'd just shrug your non-existant shoulders and think, "Okay, so I was wrong." Having realized that, you might continue to figure out how you could have "died" but still exist, and you might consider the possibility of a Higher Power. On the other hand, you might continue to explain your existance in some other way. Either way, it would be your choice. I wouldn't even presume to say how much more obvious (if at all) God's existance will be to you in this state of existance between death and the resurrection, but in my opinion, it's something that's really going to happen.

 

[S-word]

[quote=Iman;1445370]What I believe is wrong with this logic is that what you may fail to perceive as evidence of God's invervention in your life, others may believe is God's hand showing them the way. It is all within you. You are the one who decides how much of God you experienced throughout your life. That, however, does not mean that you cannot find God through active searching for Him. For me personally, I see God at every turn in my life, but more importantly I cannot accept a random world and a random existence that stops as soon as my heart stops beating.[/quote]

When your body has returned to the universal elements from which it was formed: And the facsimally of you, which is continually being imprinted on the universal soul (Life force) or the Logos, which is the divine animating principle of the universal body, which pervades and activates all momentun in all that is, has depated from that body; You will, when the time is right, be resurrected to life once again, whether or not you have ever known God.

For this universal body, is destined to become so excited that the universal elements will burn up and fall as massive columns of fire beyond all measure in height and depth, into the Great Abyss, which is the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven.
The Black Hole from which it originated and which is the nuptial chamber where Father Time and Mother Space, are locked in their eternal embrace. And this universal Body in which "The Light of Man" has developed as the supreme personality of Godhead, which body will be resurrected, cannot be resurrected without you.

 

[rojse]

What I believe is wrong with this logic is that what you may fail to perceive as evidence of God's invervention in your life, others may believe is God's hand showing them the way. It is all within you. You are the one who decides how much of God you experienced throughout your life.

But if we accept the postulation that God created us, then God has made us knowing what evidence we would require. Even if you do not accept, an omnipotent God would know what evidence we would need.

That, however, does not mean that you cannot find God through active searching for Him. For me personally, I see God at every turn in my life, but more importantly I cannot accept a random world and a random existence that stops as soon as my heart stops beating.

I can respect what you believe, but I require more than this.

 

[rojse]

Friend rojse,



Personally consider myself RELIGIOUS yet only accpt god as a concpt so is heaven and hell.
What IS, is only HERE-NOW; no past or future.

What is wrong with your logic; you could to figure it out.

Love & rgds

Thanks, Zenzero - you always have an interesting perspective in an argument.

I have started this discussion with the presumption that Heaven is a place where people go. Not everyone believes it on here, but it's such a widespread belief in orthodox Christian religions that this assumption nearly needs to be made unless the person you are arguing with states otherwise, as you have done.

 

[rojse]

I'm not convinced that God has given anybody proof of His existance.

Perhaps I could have worded this in a slightly better manner. You have received what you believe to be evidence, not proof.

Thanks for reminding me that I need to be more explicit in my OP's, or I will never get the answers to the question I have actually asked.

I believe He has given us evidence, but not everyone views that evidence the same way.

I adressed this in a post to Iman in Post #9 - God has created us, or can read our thoughts, and knows what sort of proof we would require to believe in Him.

Seriously, I don't believe that God wants us to believe in Him because we have proof. If He did, I think He's make His existance so clear that none of us could deny it.

Interesting point.

Of course, my religion doesn't teach that everybody who doesn't believe in God goes to Hell, so maybe my opinion won't count for much. But, for what it's worth... I don't believe that death is the final curtain. It's more of an intermission. After death, but before we are resurrected, we will continue to exist as cognizant beings and will be able to continue to learn new things. I'm sure we'll all be able to see things from a different perspective than we do now.

Suppose, for instance, that you were to die. I'm guessing that you believe that death is "THE END," that you will simply cease to exist at the moment you draw your last breath. Well, what if you were wrong. Suppose you were to simply pass from one realm of existance to another one, and were to find that you hadn't ceased to exist at all. Suppose you no longer had a body, but were fully aware of the world around you. Suppose you could still reason, you still had emotions, and could still make decisions. Now maybe you'd just shrug your non-existant shoulders and think, "Okay, so I was wrong." Having realized that, you might continue to figure out how you could have "died" but still exist, and you might consider the possibility of a Higher Power. On the other hand, you might continue to explain your existance in some other way. Either way, it would be your choice. I wouldn't even presume to say how much more obvious (if at all) God's existance will be to you in this state of existance between death and the resurrection, but in my opinion, it's something that's really going to happen.

As always, Katzpur, an interesting post, and thank you for putting up with what would seem to you to be quite inane questions. Frubals.

 

[Iman]

But if we accept the postulation that God created us, then God has made us knowing what evidence we would require. Even if you do not accept, an omnipotent God would know what evidence we would need.



The point of divergence seems to be that you are assuming that God chooses whom He admits to Heaven based on a innate feature that He bestows upon them to enable them to find Him and see proof of His existence. While I cannot really see into the mental processes that take place within the minds of athesist for example, I think that individuals themseleves are also responsible for making that choice. If God wanted us all to go to heaven, He would have stripped us from our free will and we would not be questioning His existence now. What He did do, however, is send messengers with a consistent message throughout man's history. In addition to our ability to see proof of His existence in ourselves or the world around us, we also have words coming directly from Him to indicate His presence. Of course many will disbelieve His existence and even more will dispute the validity of the words of His apostles.

I can understand your skepticism. I really do not mean to impose my views on you. Far from it. I only wish to share and develop my views. Thank you, Iman

 

[.lava]

It is a common refrain from certain people within the RF community that those whom do not believe in God are going to hell. Yes, I know this is not shared by everyone.

It is also quite common to hear that those whom are of a religious nature that they have received some evidence of God's existence, even if this evidence is only based on their own personal experiences. Those that do not believe (myself included) have not received any evidence that would allow us to believe, and many atheists (myself included here too) have said that they would reconsider their religious positions should they receive evidence that would change their viewpoint.

All of these comments raise an interesting question for those whom assert that those whom do not believe in God will not go to Heaven. God has given those whom now believe proof of his existence, and has not given those whom disbelieve proof. From these statements, we should presume that God has decided whom he wants with him in Heaven or not.

Now, is there anything wrong with my logic? If so, what is it?

your logic fails for one reason only. you have free will. God does not give me proof out of blue. i ask for it. how could you be answered if you did not ask for it? this is how dynamics work when there is free will given each, this is why noone can share his own proof with others. everyone has free will. everyone can ask for proof. atheist people are blocking their own chance to ask for proof by denying God itself. that is the main problem if you ask me. however, i still think, even if you did not believe that there is God, you can still ask for proof if you are sincere about knowing the truth. if you are not sincere then even believing in God would not save you. to believe takes a second, you know. many say they believe in God now but next moment what they do shows they have nothing to do with faith AT ALL.


.

 

[Iman]

When your body has returned to the universal elements from which it was formed: And the facsimally of you, which is continually being imprinted on the universal soul (Life force) or the Logos, which is the divine animating principle of the universal body, which pervades and activates all momentun in all that is, has depated from that body; You will, when the time is right, be resurrected to life once again, whether or not you have ever known God.

For this universal body, is destined to become so excited that the universal elements will burn up and fall as massive columns of fire beyond all measure in height and depth, into the Great Abyss, which is the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven.
The Black Hole from which it originated and which is the nuptial chamber where Father Time and Mother Space, are locked in their eternal embrace. And this universal Body in which "The Light of Man" has developed as the supreme personality of Godhead, which body will be resurrected, cannot be resurrected without you. [/quote]

That sounds like something that may be physically feasible at some point. I think that the more we learn about the origin of the universe, the laws of astrophysics, energy, and the nature of our DNA, the more plausible the notion of resurrection becomes. My Spiritual and religious belief, however, predates such knowledge and is based on tenets of my own religion, otherwise, it would only be speculations that are subject to change. The notion of resurrection, Heaven and Hell are components of an overall belief system that is consistent with my overall worldview.

 

[Caladan]

atheist people are blocking their own chance to ask for proof by denying God itself. that is the main problem if you ask me.

If for many people existence and life itself does not reflect an anthropomorphic deity, the whole process of 'asking for proof' is highly dubious, it implies that God plays a game of cat and mouse with humanity.
the idea of 'denying God' is also suspicious, maybe to multitudes of people its simply that there is nothing to deny, existence is what it is, and gods are of the realm of human mythology, metaphors and symbolism.
maybe while you believe that other people are denying God, others believe that you are inventing one, or rather that some folk in the distant past invented him for you, and you carry the burden of this myth.

 

[BucephalusBB]

to believe takes a second, you know.

Curious .lava... Should one start believing after or before evidence?

 

[.lava]

Curious .lava... Should one start believing after or before evidence?

OK

most believers would say this world is full of proofs. i agree with that. but there is something about God. it reveals itself with its names. it reveals itself as 'Hidden' and as 'Apparent'. these are opposites. your proof to deny God is their proof to believe in God. so to speak, we are involved very much.

and about your naughty question (thank God i was born naughty so no problem there) you do not get evidence of God by staring at nature or creation. evidence of God is in its promises. believing in God would not give you evidence either. promise of God is to keep all demonic influence away from person in case he wants to reach God. so perhabs, someone could define God differently like some kind of cosmic power, well i do not know, there are many options. but let's say how you define universal dynamics and this reality are very different than how God reveals itself but you accept there is some kind of higher power than ourselves. if you wish to reach that higher power sincerely then you might get evidence of God even though you did not believe actual God. in the begining it is not really about truth of God. in the begining it is about you, your sincerety to know the truth, your inner world just as a human being, nothing more or less. let me remind you that many believers are actually worshiping their own egos, they created their Gods within themselves which includes Muslims, Christians...etc. reflecting ourselves onto something that way higher than ourselves is the real problem which appears to be 'failure' of religion all around.


.

 

[.lava]

If for many people existence and life itself does not reflect an anthropomorphic deity, the whole process of 'asking for proof' is highly dubious, it implies that God plays a game of cat and mouse with humanity.
the idea of 'denying God' is also suspicious, maybe to multitudes of people its simply that there is nothing to deny, existence is what it is, and gods are of the realm of human mythology, metaphors and symbolism.
maybe while you believe that other people are denying God, others believe that you are inventing one, or rather that some folk in the distant past invented him for you, and you carry the burden of this myth.

yea there are many variations, no doubt about that. i am not trying to generalize atheist people all at once. i know that they are not equal just like believers are not equal. i was more like trying to make what i am saying simple by saying denying God. you know, there are Gods that i deny too haha lol yea that's right, cos i do!

.

 

[Hospitaller]

It is a common refrain from certain people within the RF community that those whom do not believe in God are going to hell. Yes, I know this is not shared by everyone.

It is also quite common to hear that those whom are of a religious nature that they have received some evidence of God's existence, even if this evidence is only based on their own personal experiences. Those that do not believe (myself included) have not received any evidence that would allow us to believe, and many atheists (myself included here too) have said that they would reconsider their religious positions should they receive evidence that would change their viewpoint.

All of these comments raise an interesting question for those whom assert that those whom do not believe in God will not go to Heaven. God has given those whom now believe proof of his existence, and has not given those whom disbelieve proof. From these statements, we should presume that God has decided whom he wants with him in Heaven or not.

Now, is there anything wrong with my logic? If so, what is it?

im one of those who does not share that belief. in my opinion, everyone can be saved, even non-believers. i have heard of many people that did not believe or were from another religion that were converted because of a personal miracle.

first off, why should God do anything for you? well, because he loves you and everyone else. but atheists decline and do not accept that love by refusing to believe in God.

Gods blessings (and those peices of evidence that you are apparently missing out on) are like rain falling upon the earth. if you sin or do not believe, you put up a little umbrella, and it blocks off all the blessings that God wants to give you.

if atheists expect evidence/blessings, then they should open their heart to God, for He is knocking. put down the umbrella. i know you will probably frown upon this, but this reply is God knocking on your door. see, for a moment, pretend that you are wrong and this is right. if there is a God, He will try to come to you, according to this message. if there is a God trying to come to you, He is coming through this message. I am only typing this physically. the real message is from the Holy Spirit.