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Question about Paul and God

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Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
In 2 Corinthians 12:1-2 Paul says only God knows if the man he was talking about was really out of body.Which I think implies the man could of literally been out of body.What do you think?:)I know alot of people are going to say this was just a vision.Because of 2 Corinthians 12:1.But if it was just a vision .Wouldn't that be in the body and not out?:)
 
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AlexanderG

AlexanderG

Active Member
Evangelical apologists can get very worked up by this argument, and will insist that it was definitely a bodily-resurrected Jesus. I think this comes from a tradition of Muslim counter apologetics that casts doubt on Jesus being anything more than another mundane prophet. Some Christians see this issue as a firm line that they have to hold at all costs.

But it's still a good point. The words in Greek are equally as supportive of it being an apparition as a body, from what I can recall, and Paul only reports seeing a light and hearing a voice. Also is the odd nuance that Jesus would have had to bodily return to earth just to talk to Paul, years after he had ascended to heaven after his initial resurrection. Was this his second coming then, or some little side trip? It's all very hard to square with the modern doctrines.

For a fun example of this debate, see a few minutes along from this timestamp:
 
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Stonetree

Stonetree

Abducted Member
Premium Member
How would a person with a body enter the 'upper room' with it's locked doors? The Gospel accounts imply a 'Spirit' body entered the room. Yet the Church says different.
 
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Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
Frank Goad said:
In 2 Corinthians 12:1-2 Paul says only God knows if the man he was talking about was really out of body.Which I think implies the man could of literally been out of body.What do you think?:)I know alot of people are going to say this was just a vision.Because of 2 Corinthians 12:1.But if it was just a vision .Wouldn't that be in the body and not out?:)
Click to expand...
 
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2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Frank Goad said:
In 2 Corinthians 12:1-2 Paul says only God knows if the man he was talking about was really out of body.Which I think implies the man could of literally been out of body.What do you think?:)I know alot of people are going to say this was just a vision.Because of 2 Corinthians 12:1.But if it was just a vision .Wouldn't that be in the body and not out?:)
Click to expand...

Who is this "man", in "I know a man in Christ"? And who is the "Lord" of Paul (2 Cor 12:8), in as much as Paul called on his Lord Caesar, when in Jerusalem, to save him, be his savior, with respect to the Jews coming after him. As for him performing miracles among "you" (2 Cor 12:12), that would be a fulfillment of Matthew 7:22, with respect to the "false prophets" of Matthew 7:15, who come as wolves in sheep's clothing. As for his "Lord", Satan, the dragon, who gave his authority to the beast (Revelation 13:4), Caesar, the messenger of Satan, gave Paul a gift from Satan. I think 2 Cor has more than an outer versus inner body problem.
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Frank Goad said:
In 2 Corinthians 12:1-2 Paul says only God knows if the man he was talking about was really out of body.Which I think implies the man could of literally been out of body.What do you think?:)I know alot of people are going to say this was just a vision.Because of 2 Corinthians 12:1.But if it was just a vision .Wouldn't that be in the body and not out?:)
Click to expand...
My honest opinon? I think Paul was hugely unstable, and hallucinated things.
 
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2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
My honest opinon? I think Paul was hugely unstable, and hallucinated things.
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A medical explanation of Paul's eyesight problems and hallucinations would be epilepsy, or malaria, or in today's context, the taking of anti-malaria drugs in huge overdoses. A more fitting explanation, as in his gift from Satan, would be demon possession.
 
muhammad_isa

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
My honest opinon? I think Paul was hugely unstable, and hallucinated things.
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Hmm .. he doesn't present as a madman, to me :D

People have dreams .. and those dreams can be visionary.
..but yes, it is possible to be confused.

Don't forget his background. He was a Hellenistic Jew and so had "baggage", despite having had "some" education with the Pharisees.
I do not believe Paul had a status of prophet.
One would think so, the way that so many of his works are in the canon.
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
2ndpillar said:
A medical explanation of Paul's eyesight problems and hallucinations would be epilepsy, or malaria, or in today's context, the taking of anti-malaria drugs in huge overdoses. A more fitting explanation, as in his gift from Satan, would be demon possession.
Click to expand...
It doesn't sound anything like demon possession. It does, however, sound like he hallucinated, IMHO.
 
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pearl

Well-Known Member
In the body or out of the body: he seemed no longer confined to bodily conditions, but he does not claim to understand the mechanics of the experience. Caught up: i.e., in ecstasy. The third heaven…Paradise: ancient cosmologies depicted a multitiered universe. Jewish intertestamental literature contains much speculation about the number of heavens. Seven is the number usually mentioned, but the Testament of Levi (2:7–10; 3:1–4) speaks of three; God himself dwelt in the third of these. Without giving us any clear picture of the cosmos, Paul indicates a mental journey to a nonearthly space, set apart by God, in which secrets were revealed to him. Ineffable things: i.e., privileged knowledge, which it was not possible or permitted to divulge. This person: the indirect way of referring to himself has the effect of emphasizing the distance between that experience and his everyday life, just as the indirect someone in Christ and all the passive verbs emphasize his passivity and receptivity in the experience. The revelations were not a personal achievement, nor were they meant to draw attention to any quality of his own.
 
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