Question about persecution of early Muslims, and warfare in Islam

Gharib · Jan 3, 2015

TashaN said:
About the whole thing, you make it sound as if these things still apply today!!!

If Khilafah was established today those three options would still apply since they come from the Prophet, the rightly guided Khulafah and those that followed with the Khilafah.

TashaN said:
What is your source? is it mentioned in the Quran or hadith that alcohol is prohibited from being consumed or sold by non-Muslims under islamic law?

I will get you a source.

TashaN · Jan 3, 2015

Gharib said:
If Khilafah was established today those three options would still apply since they come from the Prophet, the rightly guided Khulafah and those that followed with the Khilafah.

I will get you a source.

Does it say in the Quran or hadith that Muslims are obliged to establish khilafah?

I'll wait for your source to back up the claim that alcohol is not allowed to be used by non-Muslims.

Gharib · Jan 3, 2015

TashaN said:
About the whole thing, you make it sound as if these things still apply today!!!

What is your source? is it mentioned in the Quran or hadith that alcohol is prohibited from being consumed or sold by non-Muslims under islamic law?

Those things do still apply today. What's the problem. I don't have the authority to make things up. That's what the law is that's what I've said.

Alcohol and pork must not be consumed in public. Alcohol must not be sold in public nor made in public. As I said, in their private life they can do as they wish. Even their marriages are not 'legal' by Islamic law, however, by their religion it is legal therefore we don't make an issue out of it. The same for alcohol, pork and dress code. They must adhere to Islamic laws in regards to public affairs.

In 'Umdat as-Salik' - Reliance of the traveller, authored by Al Misri, AH 702-769 / AD 1302–1367. It states:
Conditions imposed on non-Muslims:
Such an agreement is only valid when the non-Muslim subjects:
..follow the rules of Islam mentioned below...
are penalized for committing adultery or theft, though not for drunkenness;
and those involving public behavior and dress. Non-Muslim acts of worship and their private lives have their
own laws, judges, and courts that enforce the rules of their own religion among their communities;
are forbidden to openly display wine or pork....

A few more other laws/rules are mentioned.

TashaN · Jan 3, 2015

Gharib said:
Those things do still apply today. What's the problem. I don't have the authority to make things up. That's what the law is that's what I've said.

Alcohol and pork must not be consumed in public. Alcohol must not be sold in public nor made in public. As I said, in their private life they can do as they wish. Even their marriages are not 'legal' by Islamic law, however, by their religion it is legal therefore we don't make an issue out of it. The same for alcohol, pork and dress code. They must adhere to Islamic laws in regards to public affairs.

In 'Umdat as-Salik' - Reliance of the traveller, authored by Al Misri, AH 702-769 / AD 1302–1367. It states:
Conditions imposed on non-Muslims:
Such an agreement is only valid when the non-Muslim subjects:
..follow the rules of Islam mentioned below...
are penalized for committing adultery or theft, though not for drunkenness;
and those involving public behavior and dress. Non-Muslim acts of worship and their private lives have their
own laws, judges, and courts that enforce the rules of their own religion among their communities;
are forbidden to openly display wine or pork....

A few more other laws/rules are mentioned.

Is any of the above supported by Quran and/or Hadith?

Gharib · Jan 3, 2015

TashaN said:
Does it say in the Quran or hadith that Muslims are obliged to establish khilafah?

Yes it does say so. Aren't you aware of it?

Gharib · Jan 3, 2015

TashaN said:
Is any of the above supported by Quran and/or Hadith?

Al Misri is/was a Shafi'i Scholar/Judge. His teachings are based on the Qur'an and Sunnah.

Ahmad Ibn Naqib Al-Misri,
Islamic Supreme Judge
Died 769/1368

TashaN · Jan 3, 2015

Gharib said:
Yes it does say so. Aren't you aware of it?

No i'm not. Can you please help me out with it?

Gharib said:
Al Misri is/was a Shafi'i Scholar/Judge. His teachings are based on the Qur'an and Sunnah.

Ahmad Ibn Naqib Al-Misri,
Islamic Supreme Judge
Died 769/1368

I didn't know about him nor his book before but i searched about it and it seems it is a big deal in Figih, especially in the Shafi'i school. Have you read the book or only the part you quoted?

Anyhow, in regardless of what the book says, it's a very old book and a new interpretation is needed. It will also be based on Quran and Sunnah but with modern Figh, not ancient Fiqh. As you know Figh deals with rulings and laws, and it always have been evolving in islamic history. It's not a rigid science.

So, i hope you will bring for me either a direct source from Quran and Sunnah or a modern interpretation of Figh by trust worthy and well recognized scholars of today.

TG123456 · Jan 3, 2015

TashaN said:
Sorry because i don't know which part you are referring to. Was it mentioned by God "the Father"?

I will paste it for you below, and highlight what I think the most important parts that illustrate the point are in red. For some reason, the text copies and pastes kind of funny, with some letters being bigger than others. Ignore the size LOL.

John 1:1-18

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.

9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) 16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

TashaN said:
That's an interesting contradiction you brought up, because he actually mentioned that he worships God, just like his disciples. Can a god worship himself?

I don't see why God cannot worship Himself, especially if He is on the earth and showing people how to pray.

Doesn't Islam teach that God will intercede for the people in hellfire? Can a God intercede to himself? If not, why can't He pray to Himself?

(24) Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri: We said, "O allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon when the sky is clear?" We said, "No." He said, "So you will have no difficulty in seeing your Lord on that Day as you have no difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon (in a clear sky)." The Prophet then said, "Somebody will then announce, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship.' So the companions of the cross will go with their cross, and the idolators (will go) with their idols, and the companions of every god (false deities) (will go) with their god, till there remain those who used to worship allah, both the obedient ones and the mischievous ones, and some of the people of the Scripture. Then Hell will be presented to them as if it were a mirage. Then it will be said to the Jews, "What did you use to worship?' They will reply, 'We used to worship Ezra, the son of allah.' It will be said to them, 'You are liars, for allah has neither a wife nor a son. What do you want (now)?' They will reply, 'We want You to provide us with water.' Then it will be said to them 'Drink,' and they will fall down in Hell (instead). Then it will be said to the Christians, 'What did you use to worship?' They will reply, 'We used to worship Messiah, the son of allah.' It will be said, 'You are liars, for allah has neither a wife nor a son. What: do you want (now)?' They will say, 'We want You to provide us with water.' It will be said to them, 'Drink,' and they will fall down in Hell (instead). When there remain only those who used to worship allah (Alone), both the obedient ones and the mischievous ones, it will be said to them, 'What keeps you here when all the people have gone?' They will say, 'We parted with them (in the world) when we were in greater need of them than we are today, we heard the call of one proclaiming, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship,' and now we are waiting for our Lord.' Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation. These people will try to prostrate but their backs will be rigid like one piece of a wood (and they will not be able to prostrate). Then the bridge will be laid across Hell." We, the companions of the Prophet said, "O allah's Apostle! What is the bridge?' He said, "It is a slippery (bridge) on which there are clamps and (Hooks like) a thorny seed that is wide at one side and narrow at the other and has thorns with bent ends. Such a thorny seed is found in Najd and is called As-Sa'dan. Some of the believers will cross the bridge as quickly as the wink of an eye, some others as quick as lightning, a strong wind, fast horses or she-camels. So some will be safe without any harm; some will be safe after receiving some scratches, and some will fall down into Hell (Fire). The last person will cross by being dragged (over the bridge)." The Prophet said, "You (Muslims) cannot be more pressing in claiming from me a right that has been clearly proved to be yours than the believers in interceding with Almighty for their (Muslim) brothers on that Day, when they see themselves safe. They will say, 'O allah! (Save) our brothers (for they) used to pray with us, fast with us and also do good deeds with us.' allah will say, 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of one (gold) Dinar.' allah will forbid the Fire to burn the faces of those sinners. They will go to them and find some of them in Hell (Fire) up to their feet, and some up to the middle of their legs. So they will take out those whom they will recognize and then they will return, and allah will say (to them), 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of one half Dinar.' They will take out whomever they will recognize and return, and then allah will say, 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant), and so they will take out all those whom they will recognize." Abu Sa'id said: If you do not believe me then read the Holy Verse:-- 'Surely! allah wrongs not even of the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant) but if there is any good (done) He doubles it.' (4.40) The Prophet added, "Then the prophets and Angels and the believers will intercede, and (last of all) the Almighty (allah) will say, 'Now remains My Intercession. He will then hold a handful of the Fire from which He will take out some people whose bodies have been burnt, and they will be thrown into a river at the entrance of Paradise, called the water of life. They will grow on its banks, as a seed carried by the torrent grows. You have noticed how it grows beside a rock or beside a tree, and how the side facing the sun is usually green while the side facing the shade is white. Those people will come out (of the River of Life) like pearls, and they will have (golden) necklaces, and then they will enter Paradise whereupon the people of Paradise will say, 'These are the people emancipated by the Beneficent. He has admitted them into Paradise without them having done any good deeds and without sending forth any good (for themselves).' Then it will be said to them, 'For you is what you have seen and its equivalent as well.'" (Book #93, Hadith #532s)

Interestingly, in another teaching of his, Muhammad stated that after his 4th intercession, those who will remain in hellfire will stay there forever.

(25) Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "The believers will be kept (waiting) on the Day of Resurrection so long that they will become worried and say, "Let us ask somebody to intercede far us with our Lord so that He may relieve us from our place. Then they will go to Adam and say, 'You are Adam, the father of the people. allah created you with His Own Hand and made you reside in His Paradise and ordered His angels to prostrate before you, and taught you the names of all things will you intercede for us with your Lord so that He may relieve us from this place of ours? Adam will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking.' He will mention his mistakes he had committed, i.e., his eating off the tree though he had been forbidden to do so. He will add, 'Go to Noah, the first prophet sent by allah to the people of the Earth.' The people will go to Noah who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking' He will mention his mistake which he had done, i.e., his asking his Lord without knowledge.' He will say (to them), 'Go to Abraham, Khalil Ar-Rahman.' They will go to Abraham who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking. He would mention three words by which he told a lie, and say (to them). 'Go to Moses, a slave whom allah gave the Torah and spoke to, directly and brought near Him, for conversation.' They will go to Moses who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking. He will mention his mistake he made, i.e., killing a person, and will say (to them), 'Go to Jesus, allah's slave and His Apostle, and a soul created by Him and His Word.' (Be: And it was.) They will go to Jesus who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking but you'd better go to Muhammad the slave whose past and future sins have been forgiven by allah.' So they will come to me, and I will ask my Lord's permission to enter His House and then I will be permitted. When I see Him I will fall down in prostration before Him, and He will leave me (in prostration) as long as He will, and then He will say, 'O Muhammad, lift up your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted, and ask (for anything) for it will be granted:' Then I will raise my head and glorify my Lord with certain praises which He has taught me. allah will put a limit for me (to intercede for a certain type of people) I will take them out and make them enter Paradise." (Qatada said: I heard Anas saying that), the Prophet said, "I will go out and take them out of Hell (Fire) and let them enter Paradise, and then I will return and ask my Lord for permission to enter His House and I will be permitted. When I will see Him I will fall down in prostration before Him and He will leave me in prostration as long as He will let me (in that state), and then He will say, 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted, and ask, your request will be granted.' " The Prophet added, "So I will raise my head and glorify and praise Him as He has taught me. Then I will intercede and He will put a limit for me (to intercede for a certain type of people). I will take them out and let them enter Paradise." (Qatada added: I heard Anas saying that) the Prophet said, 'I will go out and take them out of Hell (Fire) and let them enter Paradise, and I will return for the third time and will ask my Lord for permission to enter His house, and I will be allowed to enter. When I see Him, I will fall down in prostration before Him, and will remain in prostration as long as He will, and then He will say, 'Raise your head, O Muhammad, and speak, for you will be listened to, and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted, and ask, for your request will be granted.' So I will raise my head and praise allah as He has taught me and then I will intercede and He will put a limit for me (to intercede for a certain type of people). I will take them out and let them enter Paradise." (Qatada said: I heard Anas saying that) the Prophet said, "So I will go out and take them out of Hell (Fire) and let them enter Paradise, till none will remain in the Fire except those whom Quran will imprison (i.e., those who are destined for eternal life in the fire)." The narrator then recited the Verse:-- "It may be that your Lord will raise you to a Station of Praise and Glory.' (17.79) The narrator added: This is the Station of Praise and Glory which allah has promised to your Prophet. (Book #93, Hadith #532v)

Search the word allah intercede in the Hadith (Hadis) Books (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud, and Malik's Muwatta)

A question one could ask is who will get to do the last intercession- God or Muhammad?

Muhammad said he will intercede until the only ones who remain in the Fire will be those stuck there forever. But he also said in another of his teachings that after he is done with his intercessions, God will intercede. Sounds a bit contradictory to me.

TashaN said:
it doesn't make sense. Why not just take Jesus words for it? why do you have to worship him just because someone told you to? listen to Jesus himself.

It is true that Jesus never demanded worship, it is something to think about. It is true also though that the disciples and others worshiped Him according to the Gospels, and He never told them not to.

TashaN said:
Didn't you say earlier to me that you just have to go with what Jesus *exactly* says when you told me:

Where did Jesus say that the swords are to be used against the Romans, or only in their homes?

Let me ask you again in the same way you asked me ...

Where did Jesus say that he was God or that people has to worship him? if you trust him to tell you what to do with a sword, i'm sure you should trust him when he tells you his relationship with God and not leave for the imaginations of later people.

You are correct, worship of Jesus is not something He demanded of His disciples. I used to believe that to worship Him is mandatory, but I have changed my mind on this.

However, seeing as people worshiped Him and He did not stop them from doing so, worship of Him is not something that He would oppose.

Jesus did say things about Himself that no other prophet said, and John 1 does state He is God.

TashaN said:
Exactly, and i would like to seek your help to know why Jesus is contradicting himself? do you think maybe he didn't say those things mentioned in the bible and they just put words into his mouth?

I don't think Jesus was contradicting Himself.

If He told His disciples to buy swords to fight people, it would be a contradiction. However, He didn't. A reason was not given for why they were to be bought and, more importantly, when a sword was used, Jesus immediately rebuked the disciple who used it. There is also no record, in the Bible or otherwise, of first century Christians using weapons against anyone.

I believe there are some things that Jesus is quoting as having said in the New Testament that He did not really say, but I don't believe this was one of them, as there is neither a contradiction nor is this in clash with historic and scientific evidence.

TashaN said:
So the verses says Jesus asked them to sell their garments and buy swords, then they dropped the swords, bought other swords after selling other garments, then they chopped off the soldier's ear? Is that what you mean?

No, I would rather think that they were told to buy swords and they bought them, but mistakenly believed that Jesus meant they were to be used for violence against other people. When Peter acted on that assumption, Jesus rebuked him.

TashaN said:
Sorry i'm confused. What do you mean when you say he exist as three persons? how many god do Christians worship?

We worship one God. Perhaps three persons is a bad way of putting it.

Think instead of God as revealing Himself to humanity in three different forms- as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

TashaN said:
Thank you so much for your patience. I really

TashaN said:
appreciate it.

No problem at all, TashaN.

TashaN said:
Actually, i was talking about Jesus himself and his exact words since you seem to be very concerned with exact wordings of Quranic verses and hadiths, so i thought you have the same standards when you treat Jesus words and the Bible in general.

He said he will personally cause these things, not that it will be caused by others against him and his disciples, or do you maybe believe that we are not to take the bible literally and that any word can mean anything? but that's frightening, how will we be able to know what is what?

By coming down and preaching the Message and having His disciples do likewise after His death and resurrection, Jesus introduced something that would make many people very angry and cause them to harm His followers. So yes, He did cause division and He did bring a sword instead of peace.

I think that the Bible, like the Quran, should be taken literally in the parts that are not parables.

Also, I don't believe that everything in the Quran is literal, that is why I read the tafsirs. For example, there is a verse where the Quran's author states God did not create any person with two hearts. I used to believe that was literal (and an error) but then I read tafsirs written by medieval Muslim scholars who stated that "the heart" was a reference to loyalty, and not he human organ itself.

TashaN said:
Jesus will punish them? wait a second! can you tell me more about that please? what Jesus will do in his second coming?

He will do many things. One of them is coming down on a white horse and destroying people who did evil, then casting the Beast and those who followed him into hellfire.

Revelation 19:11-21

11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, 18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.” 19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. 20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. 21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

TashaN said:
Thank you so much. I really appreciate that you know those extremists don't represent Islam.

No problem. I think it is unfortunate that many non-Muslims have that misconception. When I hear it being said, especially by fellow Christians where I live, I do my best to quickly correct them.

I hope you also know that George Bush does not represent Christianity.

TashaN said:
It's a pleasure to talk to a knowledgeable, respectful and humble person like yourself.

LOL I'm not sure who the knowledgeable, respectful and humble person is who you are referring to. I looked behind my shoulder, but no one was there.

Thank you for the kind words. I also have a lot of respect for your intelligence and willingness to do research, and your friendliness and respect.

TashaN said:
God bless you too my friend.

Wa anti aydan.

TG123456 · Jan 3, 2015

TashaN said:
I didn't say it's a forgery, I said it's Daeef. And by the way, when the hadith is Daeef many scholars sometimes don't mind to use it if they felt it would send a positive image. In fact, the reason why the Muslim world had thousands of fabricated hadiths is because some half scholars believed that it will do good. Then the hadith science came to light to clean all this mess and show which one is correct, and which one is not.

As of being part of Omani heritage, it is not something to be surprised about. Many nations have fabricated aspects of their religion after their prophet passed away or ascended to heaven just like when Paul invented teachings which led our Christian brethrens astray till today.

I understand that aspects of religion can be fabricated, but I find it hard to believe that not one of the historians working for the Omani Government or the World Heritage Site would have mentioned that this is a fabricated letter.

There is a Polish legend (that is the country of my birth) that there was once a dragon from a place called Wawel who terrorized town after town, until a knight killed him. It's a great story, but you wouldn't find the Polish Government presenting it as real. There is also an Irish legend that Jesus Christ came to Ireland at a point in time. You won't find an Irish historian or academic or government official who makes a website to show his country to the whole world, who will tell you this is a true story.

Given that this letter is given so much importance and even its copy reproduced with the date given as well as differing accounts by historians as to when exactly it was delivered (they disagree on the when but they agree it is authentic), I don't believe it's a fabrication.

LOL I know this is is totally going to be a sidetrack (but we both do it so no offence taken, and makes the thread more fun) but what did you mean when you wrote Paul "invented teachings which led to our Christian brothers going astray"?

TashaN · Jan 11, 2015

TG123456 said:
I will paste it for you below, and highlight what I think the most important parts that illustrate the point are in red. For some reason, the text copies and pastes kind of funny, with some letters being bigger than others. Ignore the size LOL.

John 1:1-18

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.

9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) 16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

I don't see why God cannot worship Himself, especially if He is on the earth and showing people how to pray.

Why on earth would God worship himself? you are far more intelligent than to talk in this way. If you just put faith and trust on the church then i would understand but you better not tell me that God is worshipping himself just because he want to teach people. Please don't put words into Jesus's mouth. He didn't ask people to worship him nor God asked us to do so.

Doesn't Islam teach that God will intercede for the people in hellfire? Can a God intercede to himself? If not, why can't He pray to Himself?

(24) Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri: We said, "O allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon when the sky is clear?" We said, "No." He said, "So you will have no difficulty in seeing your Lord on that Day as you have no difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon (in a clear sky)." The Prophet then said, "Somebody will then announce, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship.' So the companions of the cross will go with their cross, and the idolators (will go) with their idols, and the companions of every god (false deities) (will go) with their god, till there remain those who used to worship allah, both the obedient ones and the mischievous ones, and some of the people of the Scripture. Then Hell will be presented to them as if it were a mirage. Then it will be said to the Jews, "What did you use to worship?' They will reply, 'We used to worship Ezra, the son of allah.' It will be said to them, 'You are liars, for allah has neither a wife nor a son. What do you want (now)?' They will reply, 'We want You to provide us with water.' Then it will be said to them 'Drink,' and they will fall down in Hell (instead). Then it will be said to the Christians, 'What did you use to worship?' They will reply, 'We used to worship Messiah, the son of allah.' It will be said, 'You are liars, for allah has neither a wife nor a son. What: do you want (now)?' They will say, 'We want You to provide us with water.' It will be said to them, 'Drink,' and they will fall down in Hell (instead). When there remain only those who used to worship allah (Alone), both the obedient ones and the mischievous ones, it will be said to them, 'What keeps you here when all the people have gone?' They will say, 'We parted with them (in the world) when we were in greater need of them than we are today, we heard the call of one proclaiming, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship,' and now we are waiting for our Lord.' Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation. These people will try to prostrate but their backs will be rigid like one piece of a wood (and they will not be able to prostrate). Then the bridge will be laid across Hell." We, the companions of the Prophet said, "O allah's Apostle! What is the bridge?' He said, "It is a slippery (bridge) on which there are clamps and (Hooks like) a thorny seed that is wide at one side and narrow at the other and has thorns with bent ends. Such a thorny seed is found in Najd and is called As-Sa'dan. Some of the believers will cross the bridge as quickly as the wink of an eye, some others as quick as lightning, a strong wind, fast horses or she-camels. So some will be safe without any harm; some will be safe after receiving some scratches, and some will fall down into Hell (Fire). The last person will cross by being dragged (over the bridge)." The Prophet said, "You (Muslims) cannot be more pressing in claiming from me a right that has been clearly proved to be yours than the believers in interceding with Almighty for their (Muslim) brothers on that Day, when they see themselves safe. They will say, 'O allah! (Save) our brothers (for they) used to pray with us, fast with us and also do good deeds with us.' allah will say, 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of one (gold) Dinar.' allah will forbid the Fire to burn the faces of those sinners. They will go to them and find some of them in Hell (Fire) up to their feet, and some up to the middle of their legs. So they will take out those whom they will recognize and then they will return, and allah will say (to them), 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of one half Dinar.' They will take out whomever they will recognize and return, and then allah will say, 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant), and so they will take out all those whom they will recognize." Abu Sa'id said: If you do not believe me then read the Holy Verse:-- 'Surely! allah wrongs not even of the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant) but if there is any good (done) He doubles it.' (4.40) The Prophet added, "Then the prophets and Angels and the believers will intercede, and (last of all) the Almighty (allah) will say, 'Now remains My Intercession. He will then hold a handful of the Fire from which He will take out some people whose bodies have been burnt, and they will be thrown into a river at the entrance of Paradise, called the water of life. They will grow on its banks, as a seed carried by the torrent grows. You have noticed how it grows beside a rock or beside a tree, and how the side facing the sun is usually green while the side facing the shade is white. Those people will come out (of the River of Life) like pearls, and they will have (golden) necklaces, and then they will enter Paradise whereupon the people of Paradise will say, 'These are the people emancipated by the Beneficent. He has admitted them into Paradise without them having done any good deeds and without sending forth any good (for themselves).' Then it will be said to them, 'For you is what you have seen and its equivalent as well.'" (Book #93, Hadith #532s)

Interestingly, in another teaching of his, Muhammad stated that after his 4th intercession, those who will remain in hellfire will stay there forever.

(25) Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "The believers will be kept (waiting) on the Day of Resurrection so long that they will become worried and say, "Let us ask somebody to intercede far us with our Lord so that He may relieve us from our place. Then they will go to Adam and say, 'You are Adam, the father of the people. allah created you with His Own Hand and made you reside in His Paradise and ordered His angels to prostrate before you, and taught you the names of all things will you intercede for us with your Lord so that He may relieve us from this place of ours? Adam will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking.' He will mention his mistakes he had committed, i.e., his eating off the tree though he had been forbidden to do so. He will add, 'Go to Noah, the first prophet sent by allah to the people of the Earth.' The people will go to Noah who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking' He will mention his mistake which he had done, i.e., his asking his Lord without knowledge.' He will say (to them), 'Go to Abraham, Khalil Ar-Rahman.' They will go to Abraham who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking. He would mention three words by which he told a lie, and say (to them). 'Go to Moses, a slave whom allah gave the Torah and spoke to, directly and brought near Him, for conversation.' They will go to Moses who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking. He will mention his mistake he made, i.e., killing a person, and will say (to them), 'Go to Jesus, allah's slave and His Apostle, and a soul created by Him and His Word.' (Be: And it was.) They will go to Jesus who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking but you'd better go to Muhammad the slave whose past and future sins have been forgiven by allah.' So they will come to me, and I will ask my Lord's permission to enter His House and then I will be permitted. When I see Him I will fall down in prostration before Him, and He will leave me (in prostration) as long as He will, and then He will say, 'O Muhammad, lift up your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted, and ask (for anything) for it will be granted:' Then I will raise my head and glorify my Lord with certain praises which He has taught me. allah will put a limit for me (to intercede for a certain type of people) I will take them out and make them enter Paradise." (Qatada said: I heard Anas saying that), the Prophet said, "I will go out and take them out of Hell (Fire) and let them enter Paradise, and then I will return and ask my Lord for permission to enter His House and I will be permitted. When I will see Him I will fall down in prostration before Him and He will leave me in prostration as long as He will let me (in that state), and then He will say, 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted, and ask, your request will be granted.' " The Prophet added, "So I will raise my head and glorify and praise Him as He has taught me. Then I will intercede and He will put a limit for me (to intercede for a certain type of people). I will take them out and let them enter Paradise." (Qatada added: I heard Anas saying that) the Prophet said, 'I will go out and take them out of Hell (Fire) and let them enter Paradise, and I will return for the third time and will ask my Lord for permission to enter His house, and I will be allowed to enter. When I see Him, I will fall down in prostration before Him, and will remain in prostration as long as He will, and then He will say, 'Raise your head, O Muhammad, and speak, for you will be listened to, and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted, and ask, for your request will be granted.' So I will raise my head and praise allah as He has taught me and then I will intercede and He will put a limit for me (to intercede for a certain type of people). I will take them out and let them enter Paradise." (Qatada said: I heard Anas saying that) the Prophet said, "So I will go out and take them out of Hell (Fire) and let them enter Paradise, till none will remain in the Fire except those whom Quran will imprison (i.e., those who are destined for eternal life in the fire)." The narrator then recited the Verse:-- "It may be that your Lord will raise you to a Station of Praise and Glory.' (17.79) The narrator added: This is the Station of Praise and Glory which allah has promised to your Prophet. (Book #93, Hadith #532v)

Search the word allah intercede in the Hadith (Hadis) Books (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud, and Malik's Muwatta)

A question one could ask is who will get to do the last intercession- God or Muhammad?

Muhammad said he will intercede until the only ones who remain in the Fire will be those stuck there forever. But he also said in another of his teachings that after he is done with his intercessions, God will intercede. Sounds a bit contradictory to me.

I agree with you it would have been contradictory and also it would have meant that can do intercession for people to himself. I have looked up the matter and it appeared that the portion of the hadith which start with Allah making intercession is denounced "Munkar".
http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vb/showthread.php?t=270848
http://www.ibnothaimeen.com/all/noor/article_777.shtml

You can check for various terminologies in hadith science and what they mean below:
Hadith terminology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Until now we can clearly see that there is not a single contradiction in Islam or hadith but sadly, the bible is full of contradictions as you know.

It is true that Jesus never demanded worship, it is something to think about. It is true also though that the disciples and others worshiped Him according to the Gospels, and He never told them not to.

However, seeing as people worshiped Him and He did not stop them from doing so, worship of Him is not something that He would oppose.

Can you please show me where did Jesus accepted worship? I would be interested to know more about this.

You are correct, worship of Jesus is not something He demanded of His disciples. I used to believe that to worship Him is mandatory, but I have changed my mind on this.

You are correct, because it will contradict with the first commandment.

“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me” (Exodus 20:2-3).

Jesus did say things about Himself that no other prophet said, and John 1 does state He is God.

I don't think Jesus was contradicting Himself.

If He told His disciples to buy swords to fight people, it would be a contradiction. However, He didn't. A reason was not given for why they were to be bought and, more importantly, when a sword was used, Jesus immediately rebuked the disciple who used it. There is also no record, in the Bible or otherwise, of first century Christians using weapons against anyone.

I believe there are some things that Jesus is quoting as having said in the New Testament that He did not really say, but I don't believe this was one of them, as there is neither a contradiction nor is this in clash with historic and scientific evidence.

Yes there is numrous contradictions. Most importantly, It violates the first commandment as i showed, and it also violates Jesus teachings.

Stop clinging to me; for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren (disciples), and say to them, 'I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.' (John 20: 17).

If you really love Jesus, listen to what he says, not to what others think he might want to say!!!

No, I would rather think that they were told to buy swords and they bought them, but mistakenly believed that Jesus meant they were to be used for violence against other people. When Peter acted on that assumption, Jesus rebuked him.

Why did he ask them to sell their garments, buy swords, and be on guard while he pray to his God?

We worship one God. Perhaps three persons is a bad way of putting it.

Think instead of God as revealing Himself to humanity in three different forms- as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

According to who? Is this how God and Jesus explained it?

No problem at all, TashaN.

By coming down and preaching the Message and having His disciples do likewise after His death and resurrection, Jesus introduced something that would make many people very angry and cause them to harm His followers. So yes, He did cause division and He did bring a sword instead of peace.

Then how can he be peaceful when he is introducing chaos, sword, fire into society?

I think that the Bible, like the Quran, should be taken literally in the parts that are not parables.

How do you know which part is literal and which one is not?

Also, I don't believe that everything in the Quran is literal, that is why I read the tafsirs. For example, there is a verse where the Quran's author states God did not create any person with two hearts. I used to believe that was literal (and an error) but then I read tafsirs written by medieval Muslim scholars who stated that "the heart" was a reference to loyalty, and not he human organ itself.

Which tafseer did you read? can you recall?

As far as i know it refer to the heart organ. Any reason to think otherwise?

He will do many things. One of them is coming down on a white horse and destroying people who did evil, then casting the Beast and those who followed him into hellfire.

How could he do that? why not to give the other cheek? isn't this a contradictory? I wonder why you were doubting the sword story and believe in this one. Is it just because this is how it *supposed* to be or you have your own reasons and conclusions?

No problem. I think it is unfortunate that many non-Muslims have that misconception. When I hear it being said, especially by fellow Christians where I live, I do my best to quickly correct them.

I hope you also know that George Bush does not represent Christianity.

That's really honorable.

LOL I'm not sure who the knowledgeable, respectful and humble person is who you are referring to. I looked behind my shoulder, but no one was there.

Thank you for the kind words. I also have a lot of respect for your intelligence and willingness to do research, and your friendliness and respect.

Wa anti aydan.

Thank you so much. I'm just trying my best to learn more about my own religion and yours as we go on with our discussions. So i should really thank you.

TG123456 · Jan 11, 2015

TashaN said:
Why on earth would God worship himself? you are far more intelligent than to talk in this way. If you just put faith and trust on the church then i would understand but you better not tell me that God is worshipping himself just because he want to teach people. Please don't put words into Jesus's mouth. He didn't ask people to worship him nor God asked us to do so.

Why would God not want to worship Himself? If He wanted to show people an example of what a perfect human being is like, why not come down as someone who worships God?

You are correct, Jesus did not tell people to worship Him. I used to do that, but stopped. He directed His worship to God the Father and taught people to pray to Him also.

TashaN said:
I agree with you it would have been contradictory and also it would have meant that can do intercession for people to himself. I have looked up the matter and it appeared that the portion of the hadith which start with Allah making intercession is denounced "Munkar".
http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vb/showthread.php?t=270848
http://www.ibnothaimeen.com/all/noor/article_777.shtml

You can check for various terminologies in hadith science and what they mean below:
Hadith terminology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you for sharing. I don't read Arabic, but I believe you that some claim that the portion below is munkar, which means it is from a weak source that contradicts other accepted hadiths, according to wikipedia.

However, if you continue to read this article, you will find the following under Sahih.

Ṣaḥīḥ
Ṣaḥīḥ (صَحِيْح) is best translated as "authentic".[citation needed] Ibn Hajar defines a hadith that is ṣaḥīḥ lithatihi – "ṣaḥīḥ in and of itself" – as a singular narration (ahaad; see below) conveyed by a trustworthy, completely competent person, either in his ability to memorize or to preserve what he wrote, with a muttaṣil ("connected") isnād ("chain of narration") that contains neither a serious concealed flaw (ʻillah) nor irregularity (shādhdh). He then defines a hadith that is ṣaḥīḥ ligharihi – "ṣaḥīḥ due to external factors" – as a hadith "with something, such as numerous chains of narration, strengthening it."[5]

Ibn Hajar's definitions indicate that there are five conditions to be met for a particular hadith to be considered ṣaḥīḥ:

Each narrator in the chain of narration must be trustworthy;
Each narrator must be reliable in his ability to preserve that narration, be it in his ability to memorize to the extent that he can recall it as he heard it, or, that he has written it as he heard it and has preserved that written document unchanged;
The isnād must be connected (muttasil) insofar as it is at least possible for each narrator in the chain to have received the hadith from a predecessor;
The hadith, including its isnād, is free of ʻillah (hidden detrimental flaw or flaws, e.g. the establishment that two narrators, although contemporaries, could not have shared the hadith, thereby breaking the isnād.)
The hadith is free of irregularity, meaning that it does not contradict another hadith already established (accepted).

A number of books were authored in which the author stipulated the inclusion of ṣaḥīḥ hadith alone. According to Ahl al-Sunna, this was only achieved by the first two books in the following list:

Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī. Considered the most authentic book after the Quran.[6]
Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim. Considered the next most authentic book after Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī.[6]
Ṣaḥīḥ ibn Khuzaymah. Al-Suyuti was of the opinion that Ṣaḥīḥ Ibn Khuzaymah was at a higher level of authenticity than Ṣaḥīḥ Ibn Ḥibbān.[7]
Ṣaḥīḥ Ibn Ḥibbān. Al-Suyuti also concluded that Ṣaḥīḥ Ibn Ḥibbān was more authentic than Al-Mustadrak alaa al-Ṣaḥīḥain.[7]
al-Mustadrak ʻalā al-Ṣaḥīḥayn, by Hakim al-Nishaburi.[7]
Al-Āhādith al-Jiyād al-Mukhtārah min mā laysa fī Ṣaḥīḥain by Ḍiyāʼ al-Dīn al-Maqdisī, authenticity considered.[8]

Hadith terminology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Below, there is a fatwa from IslamWeb about the authenticity of the hadiths in Bukhari and Muslim.
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=87578

I am curious who stated that this portion of the hadith is munkar. Another good question to ask would be how do we know that this hadith, and not the ones that state Muhammad will intercede, is the munkar one. Was Abu Said Al Khudri an unreliable source? There is no indication that the part about Allah intervening was written by added by anyone.

TashaN said:
Until now we can clearly see that there is not a single contradiction in Islam or hadith but sadly, the bible is full of contradictions as you know.

We just looked at one of the contradictions in the hadiths, and this in a collection that is considered to be the most reliable.

If you would like another example, from the same collection, you can read the differing accounts by Muhammad of how many women did Solomon sleep with, when he was trying to give birth to a lot of boys but forgot to say "inshAllah", and God retaliated for his absent-mindedness by making his boy be born with a disability. This isn't that different from the story in the Bible where God killed David's son after his dad committed adultery.

(1) Narrated Abu Huraira: (The Prophet) solomon son of (the Prophet) David said, "Tonight I will go round (i.e. have sexual relations with) one hundred women (my wives) everyone of whom will deliver a male child who will fight in Allah's Cause." On that an Angel said to him, "Say: 'If Allah will.' " But solomon did not say it and forgot to say it. Then he had sexual relations with them but none of them delivered any child except one who delivered a half person. The Prophet said, "If solomon had said: 'If Allah will,' Allah would have fulfilled his (above) desire and that saying would have made him more hopeful." (Book #62, Hadith #169)

(2) Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "(The Prophet) solomon once said, 'Tonight I will sleep with ninety women, each of whom will bring forth a (would-be) cavalier who will fight in Allah's Cause." On this, his companion said to him, "Say: Allah willing!" But he did not say Allah willing. solomon then slept with all the women, but none of them became pregnant but one woman who later delivered a half-man. By Him in Whose Hand Muhammad's soul is, if he (solomon) had said, 'Allah willing' (all his wives would have brought forth boys) and they would have fought in Allah's Cause as cavaliers. " (Book #78, Hadith #634)

(4) Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Prophet solomon who had sixty wives, once said, "Tonight I will have sexual relation (sleep) with all my wives so that each of them will become pregnant and bring forth (a boy who will grow into) a cavalier and will fight in Allah's Cause." So he slept with his wives and none of them (conceived and) delivered (a child) except one who brought a half (body) boy (deformed). Allah's Prophet said, "If solomon had said; 'If Allah Will,' then each of those women would have delivered a (would-be) cavalier to fight in Allah's Cause." (See Hadith No. 74 A, Vol. 4). (Book #93, Hadith #561)
Search the word solomon wives in the Hadith (Hadis) Books (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud, and Malik's Muwatta)

The Bible does indeed contain contradictions. It took me a long time to realize this and it was a painful conclusion to reach. Unfortunately, the hadiths contain them also.

TashaN said:
Can you please show me where did Jesus accepted worship? I would be interested to know more about this.

No problem at all. Firstly, I would like to show you an example where someone called Him "My Lord and my God", and He didn't rebuke him for doing so... which any decent person would have done.

John 20:24-29

24 Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”

26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Here, we have an example of Jesus rebuking Thomas... not for calling Him his Lord and God, but for not believing soon enough. Had Thomas been calling Jesus God and Jesus wasn't He, you would have expected Him to say something.

Now, for an example where Jesus was worshiped:

28 Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. 2 And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. 4 And for fear of him the guards trembled and became like dead men. 5 But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here, for he has risen, as he said. Come, see the place where he lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead, and behold, he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him. See, I have told you.” 8 So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see me.”

TashaN said:
You are correct, because it will contradict with the first

TashaN said:
commandment.
“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me” (Exodus 20:2-3).

Having gods before God is wrong, however Jesus is one of the ways in which God manifested Himself to humanity, so worshiping Him would be worshiping God.

TashaN said:
Yes there is numrous contradictions. Most importantly, It violates the first

TashaN said:
commandment as i showed, and it also violates Jesus teachings.

Stop clinging to me; for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren (disciples), and say to them, 'I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.' (John 20: 17).

If you really love Jesus, listen to what he says, not to what others think he might want to say!!!

There are numerous contradictions, but Jesus telling His disciples to buy swords is not in contradiction of His other teachings since He didn't tell anyone they are to be used against others.

Jesus did call the Father His God, that is correct. He also stated however that He and the Father are one and that those who have seen Him have seen the Father.

You seem to be telling me to love Jesus and listen to what He said, and then point to the Bible verses above. Do you realize that in the verse you just cited, He referred to God as His Father?

Does Islam teach that Jesus is the Son of God, or that God is the Father of Jesus, or anyone else for that matter?

TashaN said:
Why did he ask them to sell their garments, buy swords, and be on guard while he pray to his God?

I have no idea why He did that, but clearly it wasn't to harm others. If that was the case, Peter would have received a commendation instead of a rebuke for lopping off the ear of one of the servants of the high priest.

TashaN said:
According to who? Is this how God and Jesus explained it?

The Bible states that the Father is God and that Jesus is God and that the Holy Spirit is God.
Would you like the verses?

When teaching His followers how to baptize, Jesus told them to baptize people in the name (singular, not plural) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

TashaN said:
Then how can he be peaceful when he is introducing chaos, sword, fire into society?

Perhaps the peace He is referring to is in the afterlife. Our lives are very short, it is eternity that really counts.

TashaN said:
How do you know which part is literal and which one is not?

I think that the Bible, like the Quran, should be taken literally in the parts that are not parables.

TashaN said:
Which tafseer did you read? can you recall?

As far as i know it refer to the heart organ. Any reason to think otherwise?

If you read the tafsir of Maulana Maududi, you will see that "heart" is a reference to one's character.

5That is, "One and the same person cannot be a believer and a hypocrite, truthful and false, wicked and righteous, at one and the same time. He does not have two hearts in this chest that one should have sincerity in it and the other fearlessness of God. Therefore, a man can have only one kind of character. at a time: either he will be a believer or a hypocrite, a disbeliever or a Muslim. Now if you call a believer a hypocrite, or a hypocrite a believer, it will not change the reality. The true character of the person will inevitably remain the same."

33. Surah Al Ahzab (The Clans) - Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an - The Meaning of the Qur'an

Also, the same is true in Yusuf Ali's commentary.

4.Allah has not made for any man two hearts in his (one) body:

C3669. "Two hearts in his (one) breast": two inconsistent attitudes:

- such as serving Allah and Mammon; or

- subscribing to both Truth and Superstition; or

- hypocritically pretending one thing and intending another.

Such a thing is against Allah's Law and Will.

Apart from the condemnation of general hypocrisy, two pagan customs of the Times of Ignorance are mentioned, and their iniquity pointed out.

See the notes 3670 and 3671.

Nor can a man love two women with equal love; hence the injustice of marrying more than one wife; see the second clause in 4:3. (R).

Quran Arabic Surah (Sura) Ahzab, with English Translation & Commentary
(Tafsir) by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, Recitation By Said Al Ghamdi MP3, Free Download

TashaN said:
How could he do that? why not to give the other cheek? isn't this a contradictory? I wonder why you were doubting the sword story and believe in this one. Is it just because this is how it *supposed* to be or you have your own reasons and conclusions?

The reason is because He will come on a white horse in the End Times. The End Times are not happening now.

Islam also teaches that during the End Times, Jesus will abolish the Jizyah tax and go around killing pigs and breaking the cross- something neither the Bible or Quran or hadiths record Him as doing when He was on the earth. I don't see what is wrong with believing that in the End Times things will be different than they are now.

TashaN said:
That's really honorable.

LOL I don't think I'm honorable but it's a good thing to refute misconceptions. I hope that if you hear someone say that George Bush is following Christianity, you will do the same thing.

TashaN said:
Thank you so much. I'm just trying my best to learn more about my own religion and yours as we go on with our discussions. So i should really thank you.

This is a great learning experience for both of us. Praise God!

TashaN · Jan 19, 2015

TG123456 said:
Why would God not want to worship Himself? If He wanted to show people an example of what a perfect human being is like, why not come down as someone who worships God?

You are correct, Jesus did not tell people to worship Him. I used to do that, but stopped. He directed His worship to God the Father and taught people to pray to Him also.

If you are fully aware of how Jesus directed people to worship Allah almighty then why would you accept blindly what have been pushed by people who didn't even see Jesus?

Thank you for sharing. I don't read Arabic, but I believe you that some claim that the portion below is munkar, which means it is from a weak source that contradicts other accepted hadiths, according to wikipedia.

However, if you continue to read this article, you will find the following under Sahih.

Ṣaḥīḥ
Ṣaḥīḥ (صَحِيْح) is best translated as "authentic".[citation needed] Ibn Hajar defines a hadith that is ṣaḥīḥ lithatihi – "ṣaḥīḥ in and of itself" – as a singular narration (ahaad; see below) conveyed by a trustworthy, completely competent person, either in his ability to memorize or to preserve what he wrote, with a muttaṣil ("connected") isnād ("chain of narration") that contains neither a serious concealed flaw (ʻillah) nor irregularity (shādhdh). He then defines a hadith that is ṣaḥīḥ ligharihi – "ṣaḥīḥ due to external factors" – as a hadith "with something, such as numerous chains of narration, strengthening it."[5]

Ibn Hajar's definitions indicate that there are five conditions to be met for a particular hadith to be considered ṣaḥīḥ:

Each narrator in the chain of narration must be trustworthy;

Each narrator must be reliable in his ability to preserve that narration, be it in his ability to memorize to the extent that he can recall it as he heard it, or, that he has written it as he heard it and has preserved that written document unchanged;

The isnād must be connected (muttasil) insofar as it is at least possible for each narrator in the chain to have received the hadith from a predecessor;

The hadith, including its isnād, is free of ʻillah (hidden detrimental flaw or flaws, e.g. the establishment that two narrators, although contemporaries, could not have shared the hadith, thereby breaking the isnād.)

The hadith is free of irregularity, meaning that it does not contradict another hadith already established (accepted).

A number of books were authored in which the author stipulated the inclusion of ṣaḥīḥ hadith alone. According to Ahl al-Sunna, this was only achieved by the first two books in the following list:

Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī. Considered the most authentic book after the Quran.[6]

Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim. Considered the next most authentic book after Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī.[6]

Ṣaḥīḥ ibn Khuzaymah. Al-Suyuti was of the opinion that Ṣaḥīḥ Ibn Khuzaymah was at a higher level of authenticity than Ṣaḥīḥ Ibn Ḥibbān.[7]

Ṣaḥīḥ Ibn Ḥibbān. Al-Suyuti also concluded that Ṣaḥīḥ Ibn Ḥibbān was more authentic than Al-Mustadrak alaa al-Ṣaḥīḥain.[7]

al-Mustadrak ʻalā al-Ṣaḥīḥayn, by Hakim al-Nishaburi.[7]

Al-Āhādith al-Jiyād al-Mukhtārah min mā laysa fī Ṣaḥīḥain by Ḍiyāʼ al-Dīn al-Maqdisī, authenticity considered.[8]

Hadith terminology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Below, there is a fatwa from IslamWeb about the authenticity of the hadiths in Bukhari and Muslim.
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=87578

I am curious who stated that this portion of the hadith is munkar. Another good question to ask would be how do we know that this hadith, and not the ones that state Muhammad will intercede, is the munkar one. Was Abu Said Al Khudri an unreliable source? There is no indication that the part about Allah intervening was written by added by anyone.

No i didn't say it was weak, i said that portion is Munkar. Sometimes the main hadith is Sahih but the addition to it at the end might not be so sometimes. It's well documented and well known case by Hadith scientists.

We just looked at one of the contradictions in the hadiths, and this in a collection that is considered to be the most reliable.

It's not a contradiction and i already proved it to you.

If you would like another example, from the same collection, you can read the differing accounts by Muhammad of how many women did Solomon sleep with, when he was trying to give birth to a lot of boys but forgot to say "inshAllah", and God retaliated for his absent-mindedness by making his boy be born with a disability. This isn't that different from the story in the Bible where God killed David's son after his dad committed adultery.

(1) Narrated Abu Huraira: (The Prophet) solomon son of (the Prophet) David said, "Tonight I will go round (i.e. have sexual relations with) one hundred women (my wives) everyone of whom will deliver a male child who will fight in Allah's Cause." On that an Angel said to him, "Say: 'If Allah will.' " But solomon did not say it and forgot to say it. Then he had sexual relations with them but none of them delivered any child except one who delivered a half person. The Prophet said, "If solomon had said: 'If Allah will,' Allah would have fulfilled his (above) desire and that saying would have made him more hopeful." (Book #62, Hadith #169)

(2) Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "(The Prophet) solomon once said, 'Tonight I will sleep with ninety women, each of whom will bring forth a (would-be) cavalier who will fight in Allah's Cause." On this, his companion said to him, "Say: Allah willing!" But he did not say Allah willing. solomon then slept with all the women, but none of them became pregnant but one woman who later delivered a half-man. By Him in Whose Hand Muhammad's soul is, if he (solomon) had said, 'Allah willing' (all his wives would have brought forth boys) and they would have fought in Allah's Cause as cavaliers. " (Book #78, Hadith #634)

(4) Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Prophet solomon who had sixty wives, once said, "Tonight I will have sexual relation (sleep) with all my wives so that each of them will become pregnant and bring forth (a boy who will grow into) a cavalier and will fight in Allah's Cause." So he slept with his wives and none of them (conceived and) delivered (a child) except one who brought a half (body) boy (deformed). Allah's Prophet said, "If solomon had said; 'If Allah Will,' then each of those women would have delivered a (would-be) cavalier to fight in Allah's Cause." (See Hadith No. 74 A, Vol. 4). (Book #93, Hadith #561)
Search the word solomon wives in the Hadith (Hadis) Books (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud, and Malik's Muwatta)

They differed on the number but not no the story itself. In is well known and well documented in Arabic litreature that numbers to them weren't seen as we see them today. For example when someone want to express a large number he can say 70, 80, 90 and think of them as the same. Today we treat numbers differently. They were expert in speech and poetry but very illietrate when it comes to numbers.

Also this is part of hadith science and the one who study it will study the numbers in hadiths and how to deal with them.

There is a long answer for what those numbers mean but the answer is in Arabic. If you are still not satisfied i can translate it for you God willing.

The Bible does indeed contain contradictions. It took me a long time to realize this and it was a painful conclusion to reach. Unfortunately, the hadiths contain them also.

There is a major difference. We already know that hadith are not the word of Allah but the words of Prophet Mohamed narrated by his companions, and we already know that some hadiths are fabricated and there is a science which study hadith but the Quran which is the word of Allah is preserved by Allah himself. Sadly, the Bible is not the word of God, but it does contain God's words before people after Jesus started to add to it. That's why the bible is full of contradictions although Christians say it's the word of God.

No problem at all. Firstly, I would like to show you an example where someone called Him "My Lord and my God", and He didn't rebuke him for doing so... which any decent person would have done.

John 20:24-29

24 Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”

26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Here, we have an example of Jesus rebuking Thomas... not for calling Him his Lord and God, but for not believing soon enough. Had Thomas been calling Jesus God and Jesus wasn't He, you would have expected Him to say something.

Now, for an example where Jesus was worshiped:

28 Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. 2 And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. 4 And for fear of him the guards trembled and became like dead men. 5 But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here, for he has risen, as he said. Come, see the place where he lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead, and behold, he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him. See, I have told you.” 8 So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see me.”

Having gods before God is wrong, however Jesus is one of the ways in which God manifested Himself to humanity, so worshiping Him would be worshiping God.

Sorry, it seems there is a misunderstanding here. What do you mean by worship is different than what i was referring to.

Kindly refer to this video. Please watch it till the end.

There are numerous contradictions, but Jesus telling His disciples to buy swords is not in contradiction of His other teachings since He didn't tell anyone they are to be used against others.

Jesus did call the Father His God, that is correct. He also stated however that He and the Father are one and that those who have seen Him have seen the Father.

You seem to be telling me to love Jesus and listen to what He said, and then point to the Bible verses above. Do you realize that in the verse you just cited, He referred to God as His Father?

Does Islam teach that Jesus is the Son of God, or that God is the Father of Jesus, or anyone else for that matter?

It depends on what we mean when we say son. Is Jesus the only son or there are other sons of God in the bible?

I have no idea why He did that, but clearly it wasn't to harm others. If that was the case, Peter would have received a commendation instead of a rebuke for lopping off the ear of one of the servants of the high priest.

We already have established it was for self defence.

Imagine today, you hear some people will attack you at your home, and since you are poor, you ask your family members like sons or brothers to sell their clothes and buy guns. What do you think these guns will be used for?

I'm still puzzled on your reasoning. At times i sense intelligence and knowledge in your posts, and at times i feel as you don't want to use your logic and intelligence to judge certain things. I feel sad when you do that because you can do better than that.

The Bible states that the Father is God and that Jesus is God and that the Holy Spirit is God.
Would you like the verses?

Yeah, the bible says that, but not God, and not Jesus. It's the part which was written by men decades after Jesus.

When teaching His followers how to baptize, Jesus told them to baptize people in the name (singular, not plural) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Yes, even us Muslims when someone say Shahada he mention Allah and Mohamed his Prophet. That's why even Jesus, he was referring to three different persons. Actually, i find it odd that you are showing me something which supposed to support your claim but to the contrary, it shows it refer to three different beings, Father, Son, AND Holy Spirit.

Perhaps the peace He is referring to is in the afterlife. Our lives are very short, it is eternity that really counts.

Since you said now that the only peace is only in the hereafter so that means Jesus was not a peaceful man as you previously claimed and he is willing to use violence when necessary.

I think that the Bible, like the Quran, should be taken literally in the parts that are not parables.

Click to expand...

How do you know which part is parables and which part is literal?

For example, the story of Adam and Eve in the bible, and the creation story in Genesis, are we to take it literally or metaphorically?

TashaN · Jan 19, 2015

If you read the tafsir of Maulana Maududi, you will see that "heart" is a reference to one's character.

5That is, "One and the same person cannot be a believer and a hypocrite, truthful and false, wicked and righteous, at one and the same time. He does not have two hearts in this chest that one should have sincerity in it and the other fearlessness of God. Therefore, a man can have only one kind of character. at a time: either he will be a believer or a hypocrite, a disbeliever or a Muslim. Now if you call a believer a hypocrite, or a hypocrite a believer, it will not change the reality. The true character of the person will inevitably remain the same."

33. Surah Al Ahzab (The Clans) - Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an - The Meaning of the Qur'an

Also, the same is true in Yusuf Ali's commentary.

4.Allah has not made for any man two hearts in his (one) body:

C3669. "Two hearts in his (one) breast": two inconsistent attitudes:

- such as serving Allah and Mammon; or

- subscribing to both Truth and Superstition; or

- hypocritically pretending one thing and intending another.

Such a thing is against Allah's Law and Will.

Apart from the condemnation of general hypocrisy, two pagan customs of the Times of Ignorance are mentioned, and their iniquity pointed out.

See the notes 3670 and 3671.

Nor can a man love two women with equal love; hence the injustice of marrying more than one wife; see the second clause in 4:3. (R).

Quran Arabic Surah (Sura) Ahzab, with English Translation & Commentary
(Tafsir) by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, Recitation By Said Al Ghamdi MP3, Free Download

That's just an interpretation but it doesn't mean God intended for it to mean that. Interpretations and different Tafsirs differ on what verses mean but at the end Allah knows best.

The reason is because He will come on a white horse in the End Times. The End Times are not happening now.

Islam also teaches that during the End Times, Jesus will abolish the Jizyah tax and go around killing pigs and breaking the cross- something neither the Bible or Quran or hadiths record Him as doing when He was on the earth. I don't see what is wrong with believing that in the End Times things will be different than they are now.

Because you claimed Islam is violent but Christianity is peaceful and i just proved to you the violence that Jesus is willing to commit in the name of God.

LOL I don't think I'm honorable but it's a good thing to refute misconceptions. I hope that if you hear someone say that George Bush is following Christianity, you will do the same thing.

I agree with you, but sometimes when people tell me why some Muslims do this or do that and accuse Islam, i just give them Bush as an example and that the same can be said about almost any religion.

This is a great learning experience for both of us. Praise God!

Definitely. God bless!

TG123456 · Jan 19, 2015

TashaN said:
If you are fully aware of how Jesus directed people to worship Allah almighty then why would you accept blindly what have been pushed by people who didn't even see Jesus?

Good question. I don't know, I didn't pay close enough attention to the Bible.

Are you suggesting I pray like Jesus prayed in the Bible? Do you?

DO you say the Lord's Prayer? Do you call Allah "Our Father in Heaven"?

TashaN said:
No i didn't say it was weak, i said that portion is Munkar. Sometimes the main hadith is Sahih but the addition to it at the end might not be so sometimes. It's well documented and well known case by Hadith

TashaN said:
scientists.

Who made the addition, the narrator? Someone else? If it was someone else, who? If the narrator, why add a weak portion?

Why would a hadith with a Munkar addition be classified as Sahih?

TashaN said:
It's not a contradiction and i already proved it to you.

Of course it is. Either Muhammad intercedes last, or God does.

If the part about God interceding last was added by someone else, you need to provide the culprit's name and explain why Bukhari would have included it to begin with.

TashaN said:
They differed on the number but not no the story itself. In is well known and well documented in Arabic litreature that numbers to them weren't seen as we see them today. For example when someone want to express a large number he can say 70, 80, 90 and think of them as the same. Today we treat numbers differently. They were expert in speech and poetry but very illietrate when it comes to numbers.

Also this is part of hadith science and the one who study it will study the numbers in hadiths and how to deal with them.

There is a long answer for what those numbers mean but the answer is in Arabic. If you are still not satisfied i can translate it for you God willing.

I understand that a big number can represent a large quantity... though if we adopt this line of reasoning then a lot of the errors in the Bible also cease being errors, since many of them involve ridiculously large figures given to populations and armies.

I think though that even if 70, 80, 90 are all "big" numbers, they are clearly not the same. Muhammad contradicted himself in stating how many women Solomon slept with. One would have to wonder why God told him this story and ordered him to pass it on, wouldn't he have known that these stories would have been read by people who realize there is a numerical contradiction?

TashaN said:
There is a major difference. We already know that hadith are not the word of Allah but the words of Prophet Mohamed narrated by his companions, and we already know that some hadiths are fabricated and there is a science which study hadith but the Quran which is the word of Allah is preserved by Allah himself.

The mistakes and contradictions are contained not only in the hadiths that are classified as weak, but also the strong ones, in the collections of Bukhari and Muslim. Errors and inconsistencies in the teachings of Muhammad do place a problem on the Quran, because it states that Muhammad is to be obeyed. How do you obey someone who gives contradictory accounts not only of the past but also contradicts himself when he talks about the Day of Resurrection (ie who will pull the final people from hellfire- Muhammad or God?) and makes false prophecies like the one about the coccyx never decaying?

Don't get me wrong, Muhammad did a lot of good things and I believe he was very sincere and better than many others during his time- but some of the things he said just weren't true and I think disqualify him as a prophet... or at least a prophet who should be believed at all times.

Regarding the Quran, we are still discussing Ancient Egypt and premature babies on other threads, LOL.

TashaN said:
Sadly, the Bible is not the word of God, but it does contain God's words before people after Jesus started to add to it. That's why the bible is full of contradictions although Christians say it's the word of God.

I think you are being a tad too generous. There are mistakes in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament.

What did you mean when you said it contains God's words before it was added to? Are you suggesting there was an "original"? If I am understand you incorrectly, please accept my apologies and clarify what you meant.

TashaN said:
Sorry, it seems there is a misunderstanding here. What do you mean by worship is different than what i was referring to.

TashaN said:
Kindly refer to this video. Please watch it till the end.

I watched it, and found it quite amusing. Ahmed Deedat was a great speaker and I love his dry sense of humour as well as ability to memorize Scripture.

However, he either unintentionally or intentionally left some crucial information out. The word for "worship" in Matthew 28:17 isπροσεκύνησαν.

Matthew 28:17
17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.
ἰδόντες αὐτὸν προσεκύνησαν οἱ δὲ

This same word is used in other contexts where the word is used to refer to worship of God only.

Revelation 19:4
4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who was seated on the throne, saying, “Amen. Hallelujah!”
ζῷα καὶ προσεκύνησαν τῷ θεῷ

Greek Concordance: προσεκύνησαν (prosekynēsan) -- 12 Occurrences

Ahmed Deedat said that "worship" means to bow down, and not worship of God. However, the disciples in the Book of Acts told people to stop bowing to them precisely because they realized the significance of bowing... in was worship.

Ahmed Deedat also said that people often say they "worship" their wives. I can tell you off the bat that I don't, and would never say such a thing. I'd be shocked if he does so as a Muslim. I love my wife, but she never was, isn't and never will be the focus of my worship. That is reserved for God alone.

TashaN said:
It depends on what we mean when we say son. Is Jesus the only son or there are other sons of God in the bible?

The term "son of God" is used for others also, but Christians believe it had a different meaning for Jesus.

Just as there are different gods in the Quran, but you believe the term "god" to have a different meaning for Allah than for Izzat.

TashaN said:
We already have established it was for self defence.

LOL no we didn't. You were the one who "established" that belief, and are trying to convince me it is true. I stand my ground, my friend. There is example after example in the Bible of Jesus banning violence and of violence not being used when it could have been, in self-defence.
The only evidence you can provide for your theory that Jesus wanted His disciples to use swords in self-defence is that He asked them to buy them.

TashaN said:
Imagine today, you hear some people will attack you at your home, and since you are poor, you ask your family members like sons or brothers to sell their clothes and buy guns. What do you think these guns will be used for?

Interesting analogy and I would agree, the guns would be used for violence. However, let's see what happened when the attack actually came.
Instead of Jesus giving Peter a high five or medal, and calling down on the Angels to give the Jewish authorities' servants a very serious buttkicking, He healed the dude's ear and ordered Peter to put his sword away.

So unfortunately, your analogy fails because we do know what happened when the attack came, and it wasn't what you would expect. Jesus did not tell His disciples to draw their swords and when one of them did so, He rebuked him.

Whatever the purpose the swords were for, it wasn't for violence.

TashaN said:
I'm still puzzled on your reasoning. At times i sense intelligence and knowledge in your posts, and at times i feel as you don't want to use your logic and intelligence to judge certain things. I feel sad when you do that because you can do better than that.

LOL well thank you... I think.

The reason I do not believe Jesus wanted His disciples to use their swords to fight is simple... when one of them did, he was rebuked. There is also no record of any of the disciples using violence at any point, either in Biblical or extraBiblical records. If you can prove me wrong, please do so.

TashaN said:
Yeah, the bible says that, but not God, and not Jesus. It's the part which was written by men decades after Jesus.

All of the Bible was written decades after Jesus, including parts with the words He is said to have said, and others.

TashaN said:
Yes, even us Muslims when someone say Shahada he mention Allah and Mohamed his Prophet.

Do you swear by things "in the Name of Allah and Muhammad"?

TashaN said:
That's why even Jesus, he was referring to three different persons. Actually, i find it odd that you are showing me something which supposed to support your claim but to the contrary, it shows it refer to three different beings, Father, Son, AND Holy Spirit.

Yes, they are different forms of the same God. That is He said in the name of.

TashaN said:
Since you said now that the only peace is only in the hereafter so that means Jesus was not a peaceful man as you previously claimed and he is willing to use violence when necessary.

Nope. Jesus was very peaceful when He was on the earth, with the exception of the moneylenders. The sword He came to bring was not violence that His followers were to use against others.

TashaN said:
How do you know which part is parables and which part is literal?

The parts where He says He is talking in parables.

TashaN said:
For example, the story of Adam and Eve in the bible, and the creation story in Genesis, are we to take it literally or metaphorically?

I think it is meant to be taken literally. I also think there are some parts of it that were obviously made up, like the sun allegedly being created after plants, but that is a sidetrack LOL.

TG123456 · Jan 19, 2015

TashaN said:
That's just an interpretation but it doesn't mean God intended for it to mean that. Interpretations and different Tafsirs differ on what verses mean but at the end Allah knows best.

How do you know it was meant to be taken literally? Also, if there are parts of the Quran that people can't seem to agree on whether it is literal or figurative, does that not make it unclear?

TashaN said:
Because you claimed Islam is violent but Christianity is peaceful and i just proved to you the violence that Jesus is willing to commit in the name of God.

Where did I say Islam is violent?

I said that Islam does allow Muslims to use violence in self-defence. Christianity forbids Christians to use violence in any situation, including self-defence. Am I wrong?

TashaN said:
I agree with you, but sometimes when people tell me why some Muslims do this or do that and accuse Islam, i just give them Bush as an example and that the same can be said about almost any religion.

Good point. I just hope that when you say this you know that he is not following Christianity.

TashaN said:
Definitely. God bless!

Alhamdullilah!

TashaN · Jan 21, 2015

I'll come back for this one insha'Allah. I'm just writing this post so i won't misplace the thread, lol.

TashaN · Feb 1, 2015

TG123456 said:
Good question. I don't know, I didn't pay close enough attention to the Bible.

Are you suggesting I pray like Jesus prayed in the Bible? Do you?

DO you say the Lord's Prayer? Do you call Allah "Our Father in Heaven"?

I watched it, and found it quite amusing. Ahmed Deedat was a great speaker and I love his dry sense of humour as well as ability to memorize Scripture.

However, he either unintentionally or intentionally left some crucial information out. The word for "worship" in Matthew 28:17 isπροσεκύνησαν.

Matthew 28:17
17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.
ἰδόντες αὐτὸν προσεκύνησαν οἱ δὲ

This same word is used in other contexts where the word is used to refer to worship of God only.

Revelation 19:4
4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who was seated on the throne, saying, “Amen. Hallelujah!”
ζῷα καὶ προσεκύνησαν τῷ θεῷ

Greek Concordance: προσεκύνησαν (prosekynēsan) -- 12 Occurrences

Ahmed Deedat said that "worship" means to bow down, and not worship of God. However, the disciples in the Book of Acts told people to stop bowing to them precisely because they realized the significance of bowing... in was worship.

Ahmed Deedat also said that people often say they "worship" their wives. I can tell you off the bat that I don't, and would never say such a thing. I'd be shocked if he does so as a Muslim. I love my wife, but she never was, isn't and never will be the focus of my worship. That is reserved for God alone.

I worship Allah as how he and the Messenger Mohamed taught us because i'm not sure what Jesus said and what he didn't say since the bible is not the word of God but a collection of books by various writers as you know. I just read in the bible something similar to what Muslims today do in their prayer.

Please read below:
"O you who believe! Bow down and prostrate yourselves and serve your Lord, and do good that you may prosper."-(HOLY QURAN 22:77).

"And he (Jesus) went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed..."-(MATTHEW 26:39).

"And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship..."-(JOSHUA 5:14).

"And he (Elijah) cast himself down upon the earth, and put his face between his knees."-(1 KINGS 18:42).

"And they (Moses and Aaron) fell upon their faces..."-(NUMBERS 20:6).

"And Abraham fell on his face..."-(GENESIS 17:3).

Did all Prophets including Jesus prayed to God the same as Muslism pray now? | ReligiousForums.com

This is how Muslims pray:

Who made the addition, the narrator? Someone else? If it was someone else, who? If the narrator, why add a weak portion?

Why would a hadith with a Munkar addition be classified as Sahih?

Of course it is. Either Muhammad intercedes last, or God does.

If the part about God interceding last was added by someone else, you need to provide the culprit's name and explain why Bukhari would have included it to begin with.

Insha'Allah i search about this more and get back to you. I hope you won't mind if we made a separate thread for this topic later on after we are done with what we currently have.

I understand that a big number can represent a large quantity... though if we adopt this line of reasoning then a lot of the errors in the Bible also cease being errors, since many of them involve ridiculously large figures given to populations and armies.

I think though that even if 70, 80, 90 are all "big" numbers, they are clearly not the same. Muhammad contradicted himself in stating how many women Solomon slept with. One would have to wonder why God told him this story and ordered him to pass it on, wouldn't he have known that these stories would have been read by people who realize there is a numerical contradiction?

The mistakes and contradictions are contained not only in the hadiths that are classified as weak, but also the strong ones, in the collections of Bukhari and Muslim. Errors and inconsistencies in the teachings of Muhammad do place a problem on the Quran, because it states that Muhammad is to be obeyed. How do you obey someone who gives contradictory accounts not only of the past but also contradicts himself when he talks about the Day of Resurrection (ie who will pull the final people from hellfire- Muhammad or God?) and makes false prophecies like the one about the coccyx never decaying?

Don't get me wrong, Muhammad did a lot of good things and I believe he was very sincere and better than many others during his time- but some of the things he said just weren't true and I think disqualify him as a prophet... or at least a prophet who should be believed at all times.

Regarding the Quran, we are still discussing Ancient Egypt and premature babies on other threads, LOL.

Arabs weren't advanced in numbers. They were seeing large numbers in the same way. Although Prophet Mohamed might have mentioned the correct accurate number but those who narrated the hadith might not have seen any difference between 70, 80, 90, etc. It's not Prophet Mohamed fault that this is how the companion narrated the hadith after him. That's why only Quran can be seen as the literal word of God and we treat hadiths as wisdom which might not be always literal. Just now I remembered something i read in a book by the great Muslim historian and sociologist Ibn Khaldun. He also noticed this and talked in length about it on how Arabs in the time of Prophet Mohamed were very smart when it comes to words but were not advanced nor very accurate when it came to numbers. He criticized many of accounts like army numbers in battles which might have been exaggerated unintentionally, etc. I really hope you will get the chance to read it because it's going to clarify many things to you in term of historical accounts and sociology. By the way, ibn Khaldon is thought to be the one who laid the foundation of sociology by many modern scholars.

Amazon.com: Ibn Khaldun: Books

Another thing which i discovered just yesterday which i wasn't are about before is that the Arabs at the time of Prophet Mohamed were calling a brown man white, because to them they don't have the caucasian whiteness. That's why their white are all degrees of brown and they were calling the caucasians the red.

I think you are being a tad too generous. There are mistakes in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament.

What did you mean when you said it contains God's words before it was added to? Are you suggesting there was an "original"? If I am understand you incorrectly, please accept my apologies and clarify what you meant.

What we see as original scriptures are Torah and Injeel "Gospel".

The term "son of God" is used for others also, but Christians believe it had a different meaning for Jesus.

Just as there are different gods in the Quran, but you believe the term "god" to have a different meaning for Allah than for Izzat.

Yeah, there is a misconception about the names of idols mentioned in the Quran. If you want we can touch on that as well.

LOL no we didn't. You were the one who "established" that belief, and are trying to convince me it is true. I stand my ground, my friend. There is example after example in the Bible of Jesus banning violence and of violence not being used when it could have been, in self-defence.
The only evidence you can provide for your theory that Jesus wanted His disciples to use swords in self-defence is that He asked them to buy them.

Yes, that's my evidence, and if you are not satisfied with it, then that's ok.

Interesting analogy and I would agree, the guns would be used for violence. However, let's see what happened when the attack actually came.
Instead of Jesus giving Peter a high five or medal, and calling down on the Angels to give the Jewish authorities' servants a very serious buttkicking, He healed the dude's ear and ordered Peter to put his sword away.

So unfortunately, your analogy fails because we do know what happened when the attack came, and it wasn't what you would expect. Jesus did not tell His disciples to draw their swords and when one of them did so, He rebuked him.

Whatever the purpose the swords were for, it wasn't for violence.

LOL well thank you... I think.

The reason I do not believe Jesus wanted His disciples to use their swords to fight is simple... when one of them did, he was rebuked. There is also no record of any of the disciples using violence at any point, either in Biblical or extraBiblical records. If you can prove me wrong, please do so.

Yes, they are different forms of the same God. That is He said in the name of.

Nope. Jesus was very peaceful when He was on the earth, with the exception of the moneylenders. The sword He came to bring was not violence that His followers were to use against others.

The parts where He says He is talking in parables.

I think it is meant to be taken literally. I also think there are some parts of it that were obviously made up, like the sun allegedly being created after plants, but that is a sidetrack LOL.

Ok, i understand. I already made my point and whether you will view it as a valid or not is up to you. Think about it for yourself later on.

All of the Bible was written decades after Jesus, including parts with the words He is said to have said, and others.

I understand.

Do you swear by things "in the Name of Allah and Muhammad"?

Allah.

TG123456 · Feb 1, 2015

TashaN said:
I worship Allah as how he and the Messenger Mohamed taught us because i'm not sure what Jesus said and what he didn't say since the bible is not the word of God but a collection of books by various writers as you know. I just read in the bible something similar to what Muslims today do in their prayer.

Please read below:
"O you who believe! Bow down and prostrate yourselves and serve your Lord, and do good that you may prosper."-(HOLY QURAN 22:77).

"And he (Jesus) went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed..."-(MATTHEW 26:39).

"And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship..."-(JOSHUA 5:14).

"And he (Elijah) cast himself down upon the earth, and put his face between his knees."-(1 KINGS 18:42).

"And they (Moses and Aaron) fell upon their faces..."-(NUMBERS 20:6).

"And Abraham fell on his face..."-(GENESIS 17:3).

Did all Prophets including Jesus prayed to God the same as Muslism pray now? | ReligiousForums.com

This is how Muslims pray:

Thank you for the video and link to your post. I don't wish to be insulting but is there not a contradiction in what you just wrote?

You wrote you aren't sure what Jesus said and did not say, since the Bible is not an accurate account of His words. Then you give examples from the Bible that state that like Muslims do, Jesus and Elijah and Moses and Abraham fell on their faces.

How do you know though that this is what they actually did, if the Bible is not to be trusted? You don't trust the Biblical accounts of Jesus being crucified and rising from the dead, why do you trust the account that He fell flat on His face? The same can be asked about the Biblical accounts of Moses and Aaron washing their faces and taking off their shoes... notice there is nothing in the Gospels about Jesus doing either of these things in the Garden of Gethsemane.

TashaN said:
Insha'Allah i search about this more and get back to you. I hope you won't mind if we made a separate thread for this topic later on after we are done with what we currently have.

Not at all, feel free to do that.

TashaN said:
Arabs weren't advanced in numbers. They were seeing large numbers in the same way. Although Prophet Mohamed might have mentioned the correct accurate number but those who narrated the hadith might not have seen any difference between 70, 80, 90, etc. It's not Prophet Mohamed fault that this is how the companion narrated the hadith after him. That's why only Quran can be seen as the literal word of God and we treat hadiths as wisdom which might not be always literal. Just now I remembered something i read in a book by the great Muslim historian and sociologist Ibn Khaldun. He also noticed this and talked in length about it on how Arabs in the time of Prophet Mohamed were very smart when it comes to words but were not advanced nor very accurate when it came to numbers. He criticized many of accounts like army numbers in battles which might have been exaggerated unintentionally, etc. I really hope you will get the chance to read it because it's going to clarify many things to you in term of historical accounts and sociology. By the way, ibn Khaldon is thought to be the one who laid the foundation of sociology by many modern scholars.

Amazon.com: Ibn Khaldun: Books

Another thing which i discovered just yesterday which i wasn't are about before is that the Arabs at the time of Prophet Mohamed were calling a brown man white, because to them they don't have the caucasian whiteness. That's why their white are all degrees of brown and they were calling the caucasians the red.

Thank you for sharing this. The Ancient Hebrews, like the Arabs, also didn't place a high emphasis on numbers and numerical accuracy. I don't think though that this minimizes the errors in the Bible, and I also don't think it minimizes the contradiction in the hadiths.

Are you sure the Quran is always the literal word of God? Does the author never use metaphorical language in it?

You also wrote something interesting, that the listeners of Muhammad may have not gotten the accurate and correct number. If they got something like this wrong, and it made its way into a collection that Muslim scholars more or less universally agree is Sahih, then who else knows what was recorded wrong?

If we don't know how many women Solomon slept with in one night- was it 60 or 100 or somewhere in between... how do we know how many times Muslims are actually supposed to pray?

Most say 5 times, but believe it or not there are others who say it was 3.
Quran-Islam.org - True Islam

Their argument is pretty simple- the Quran mentions only praying 3 times, and the commandment to pray 5 times is in the Sahih hadiths... which were written by people who may not have accurately recorded what Muhammad said and didn't say. You have more or less admitted the same thing, though with the case of Solomon's wives and not prayers.

TashaN said:
What we see as original scriptures are Torah and Injeel "Gospel".

When were these books written? By whom? Is there any evidence outside the Quran for them existing?

TashaN said:
Yeah, there is a misconception about the names of idols mentioned in the Quran. If you want we can touch on that as well.

Sure, if you want, feel free to elaborate. I am just pointing out that like there different meanings to the word "god" in the Quran, there are different meanings to the word "Son of God" in the Bible.

TashaN said:
Yes, that's my evidence, and if you are not satisfied with it, then that's ok.

Ok, i understand. I already made my point and whether you will view it as a valid or not is up to you. Think about it for yourself later on.

Thank you, my friend. We may have to agree to disagree on this.

TashaN said:
I understand.

... so it makes little sense to me to say definitively what He did or did not say. We do have some passages in the New Testament that were added later, these ones we can definitely say were not His words... critics of the Bible like Bart Ehrman who is also a very well read and in my opinion an intelligent scholar, has written about the passages which are interpolations. However, they do not include either Jesus praying, or Him saying things about Himself that people would not say unless claiming divinity, or having people worship Him and not responding by telling them to stop, like Peter did.

TashaN said:
Allah.

Why not in the Name of Allah and Muhammad? Why only in the Name of Allah?

TashaN · Feb 1, 2015

TG123456 said:
How do you know it was meant to be taken literally? Also, if there are parts of the Quran that people can't seem to agree on whether it is literal or figurative, does that not make it unclear?

Allah will give the true understanding to the sincere. It's not about being smart but about being humble and sincere then Allah will give us the understanding and increase our faith.

{124} وَإِذَا مَا أُنْزِلَتْ سُورَةٌ فَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ يَقُولُ أَيُّكُمْ زَادَتْهُ هَذِهِ إِيمَانًا فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا فَزَادَتْهُمْ إِيمَانًا وَهُمْ يَسْتَبْشِرُونَ

Whenever there cometh down a Sura, some of them say: "Which of you has had his faith increased by it?" Yea, those who believe, their faith is increased, and they do rejoice.

{125} وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ مَرَضٌ فَزَادَتْهُمْ رِجْسًا إِلَى رِجْسِهِمْ وَمَاتُوا وَهُمْ كَافِرُونَ
But those in whose hearts is a disease, it will add doubt to their doubt, and they will die in a state of Unbelief.

Quran (Surah 9)

Where did I say Islam is violent?

I said that Islam does allow Muslims to use violence in self-defence. Christianity forbids Christians to use violence in any situation, including self-defence. Am I wrong?

Good point. I just hope that when you say this you know that he is not following Christianity.

I don't know Christianity enough to judge whether it's a violent religion or not but from what i saw in the OT it seems like a very violent religion unless Christianity deleted the OT from the bible then that's another story.

TashaN · Feb 1, 2015

TG123456 said:
Thank you for the video and link to your post. I don't wish to be insulting but is there not a contradiction in what you just wrote?

You wrote you aren't sure what Jesus said and did not say, since the Bible is not an accurate account of His words. Then you give examples from the Bible that state that like Muslims do, Jesus and Elijah and Moses and Abraham fell on their faces.

How do you know though that this is what they actually did, if the Bible is not to be trusted? You don't trust the Biblical accounts of Jesus being crucified and rising from the dead, why do you trust the account that He fell flat on His face? The same can be asked about the Biblical accounts of Moses and Aaron washing their faces and taking off their shoes... notice there is nothing in the Gospels about Jesus doing either of these things in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Maybe you misunderstood what i was trying to say. I said i don't know enough but this is what i have read in the bible. If you said it's not true then i'll believe you. As simple as that. So, what do you think? is it a similar prayer to what the other Prophets of Allah did?

Not at all, feel free to do that.

Thanks.

Thank you for sharing this. The Ancient Hebrews, like the Arabs, also didn't place a high emphasis on numbers and numerical accuracy. I don't think though that this minimizes the errors in the Bible, and I also don't think it minimizes the contradiction in the hadiths.

Are you sure the Quran is always the literal word of God? Does the author never use metaphorical language in it?

When i say literal, i mean it's God's words, not someone else's words. Hadith is different since it's not the word of God but is wisdom and explanation for us. I won't lose sleep over it if i didn't know exactly how many did Prophet Solomon had.

You also wrote something interesting, that the listeners of Muhammad may have not gotten the accurate and correct number. If they got something like this wrong, and it made its way into a collection that Muslim scholars more or less universally agree is Sahih, then who else knows what was recorded wrong?

If we don't know how many women Solomon slept with in one night- was it 60 or 100 or somewhere in between... how do we know how many times Muslims are actually supposed to pray?

Most say 5 times, but believe it or not there are others who say it was 3.
Quran-Islam.org - True Islam

Their argument is pretty simple- the Quran mentions only praying 3 times, and the commandment to pray 5 times is in the Sahih hadiths... which were written by people who may not have accurately recorded what Muhammad said and didn't say. You have more or less admitted the same thing, though with the case of Solomon's wives and not prayers.

They are two different issues. Solomon wives is something of the past which only Allah knows and when it comes to the prayer it's something which was being practiced since Prophet Mohamed till today by all Muslims and there is no disagreement on that.

When were these books written? By whom? Is there any evidence outside the Quran for them existing?

Allah knows best. We just believe it because Allah said so.

{285} آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ رَبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِنْ رُسُلِهِ وَقَالُوا سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ
The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His Books, and His Messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His Messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey, (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

Quran (Surah 2)

Sure, if you want, feel free to elaborate. I am just pointing out that like there different meanings to the word "god" in the Quran, there are different meanings to the word "Son of God" in the Bible.

Allah knows best.

Thank you, my friend. We may have to agree to disagree on this.

Yes.

... so it makes little sense to me to say definitively what He did or did not say. We do have some passages in the New Testament that were added later, these ones we can definitely say were not His words... critics of the Bible like Bart Ehrman who is also a very well read and in my opinion an intelligent scholar, has written about the passages which are interpolations. However, they do not include either Jesus praying, or Him saying things about Himself that people would not say unless claiming divinity, or having people worship Him and not responding by telling them to stop, like Peter did.

Allah knows best.

Why not in the Name of Allah and Muhammad? Why only in the Name of Allah?

Because i worship Allah, i don't worship Prophet Mohamed. He is the Messenger of Allah.

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