Question about the Bible

[madhatter85]

Luke 24

44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48And ye are witnesses of these things.
49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. 51And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

We see here that Jesus told the DISCIPLES to go and preach the Gospel, to ALL nations, BEGINNING AT JERUSALEM. Jesus ascended to Heaven and left the disciples (and us) to spread the Gospel, beginning at Jerusalem (where they/you are), then to all nations. This is just what they did. They preached the Gospel starting at Jerusalem and then in all directions. It was easiest to travel within the Roman Empire as there were roads and it was all ruled by Rome, so the Gospel spread to the known Roman ruled world first. As opposition, languages, and oceans, etc. hindered the Gospel, slowed it down, not completely stopped it, we are still going into all the world to reach every last tribe and person. That is the Great Commission. There are many barriers to overcome, physical and spiritual. But Jesus said the Gospel would be preached to all the world and then the end would come. We are very close to fulfilling that.

Too bad they all were killed before they had a chance to pack up and leave jerusalem.....

 

[joeboonda]

Too bad they all were killed before they had a chance to pack up and leave jerusalem.....

Matthew suffered martyrdom in Ethiopia, killed by a sword wound.
Mark died in Alexandria, Egypt, after being dragged by horses through the streets until he was dead.
Luke was hanged in Greece as a result of his tremendous preaching to the lost.
John faced martyrdom when he was boiled in a huge basin of boiling oil during a wave of persecution in Rome. However, he was miraculously delivered from death. John was then sentenced to the mines on the prison island of Patmos. He wrote his prophetic Book of Revelation on Patmos. The apostle John was later freed and returned to serve as Bishop of Edessa in modern Turkey. He died as an old man, the only apostle to die peacefully.
Peter was crucified upside down on an x-shaped cross, according to church tradition because he told his tormentors that he felt unworthy to die in the same way that Jesus Christ had died.
James the Just, the leader of the church in Jerusalem, was thrown over a hundred feet down from the southeast pinnacle of the Temple when he refused to deny his faith in Christ. When they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat James to death with a fuller's club. This was the same pinnacle where Satan had taken Jesus during the Temptation.
James the Greater, a son of Zebedee, was a fisherman by trade when Jesus called him to a lifetime of ministry. As a strong leader of the church, James was ultimately beheaded at Jerusalem. The Roman officer who guarded James watched amazed as James defended his faith at his trial. Later, the officer walked beside James to the place of execution. Overcome by conviction, he declared his new faith to the judge and knelt beside James to accept beheading as a Christian.
Bartholomew, also know as Nathanael, was a missionary to Asia. He witnessed to our Lord in present day Turkey. Bartholomew was martyred for his preaching in Armenia when he was flayed to death by a whip.
Andrew was crucified on an x-shaped cross in Patras, Greece. After being whipped severely by seven soldiers they tied his body to the cross with cords to prolong his agony. His followers reported that, when he was led toward the cross, Andrew saluted it in these words: "I have long desired and expected this happy hour. The cross has been consecrated by the body of Christ hanging on it." He continued to preach to his tormentors for two days until he expired.
The apostle Thomas was stabbed with a spear in India during one of his missionary trips to establish the church in the subcontinent.
Jude, the brother of Jesus, was killed with arrows when he refused to deny his faith in Christ.
Matthias, the apostle chosen to replace the traitor Judas Iscariot, was stoned and then beheaded.
Barnabas, one of the group of seventy disciples, wrote the Epistle of Barnabas. He preached throughout Italy and Cyprus. Barnabas was stoned to death at Salonica.
The apostle Paul was tortured and then beheaded by the evil Emperor Nero at Rome in A.D. 67. Paul endured a lengthy imprisonment which allowed him to write his many epistles to the churches he had formed throughout the Roman Empire. These letters, which taught many of the foundational doctrines of Christianity, form a large portion of the New Testament.
The details of the martyrdoms of the disciples and apostles are found in traditional early church sources. These traditions were recounted in the writings of the church fathers and the first official church history written by the historian Eusebius in A.D. 325. Although we can not at this time verify every detail historically, the universal belief of the early Christian writers was that each of the apostles had faced martyrdom faithfully without denying their faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Reference: Jeffrey, Grant R., "The Signature of God", Frontier Research Publications, Inc. (1996), p.254-257

 

[The Seeker]

How come Europe was the only area that deserved to hear about the word of the christian God, and had a chance for salvation?

What I mean to ask is why did Europe get the word of the Bible, while most countries outside of the area did not get a chance to hear the word of God?

Australia did not get the Bible until 1788 AD (year of European settlement). North America did not get the Bible until 1492 AD. There are a great deal many other countries that I could list with this. So why did the natives of these countries, and many others have to wait many centuries, or even more than a millenia, to receive the word of God, and have a chance for salvation?

Very good questions. What I also don't understand is why he relied on man to spread the gospel. Why didn't he just send angels to do it?
Why did God wait so long to decide to spread the gospel to the world?

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

Who says that those who didn't hear the Gospel are damned? That is not the ancient teaching of the Church (look at the tradition of the harrowing of hell, for instance). Only sola scriptura Protestants could possibly have such a weird view of salvation, with all who lived prior to a book appearing in their land are damned. As others have said, the Bible wasn't ever confined solely to Europe. There were early churches throughout the middle east, in Africa and in India and within the first 6 centuries or so Christianity was represented from Ireland to China, but the earliest church was not Coptic as someone claimed. The Patriarchate of Alexandria was early as it was founded by a disciple of St. Peter, but there was no such church as the Coptic church until that patriarchate split in two after the council of Chalcedon, and besides both Jerusalem and Antioch are older Sees, and plenty of others are contemporary with Alexandria having also been founded by Apostles - Ephesus, Rome, Tomis, Corinth, India to name but a few.

James

As a kid I went to church in the U.S. South, very sola scriptura, Hellfire and Brimstone kind of places, where I was told if I died with even one unconfessed sin on my heart I would go to Hell. I became convinced at a very early age that there was no way I could possibly expect to live up to the standards set so I gave up on the whole idea of ever going to Heaven.

The subject of the OP came up and I heard some accounts that suggested that the "Pygmies in Africa" (for some reason they were always the example of people who didn't have access to the Gospel) would get to go to Heaven because they never heard about Jesus. I immediately felt ripped off because those Pygmies living in blissful ignorance had a trip to Heaven "locked up" while I was forced to go to Church Sunday morning, Sunday night and Wednesday night, having to live to impossible standards, only to be sent to Hell if I got mowed down by a bus and my last word on Earth was a swear word!!!!

This early issue as well as the inconceivability of the whole Young Earth, Literal Flood led me on what has become a lifelong pursuit into theology, which I originally hoped would lead me to being able to accept God/Jesus while maintaining some degree of intellectual honesty, but which ultimately led me to the certainty that there was no more reason for me to buy into the Jesus phenomenon than there was for the Greeks to buy into the Zeus phenomenon.

So, that being said, don't think that the concept emboldened above is so rare, many of us on the boards that grew up in the American South were raised on just such philosophies.

B.

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

How come Europe was the only area that deserved to hear about the word of the christian God, and had a chance for salvation?

What I mean to ask is why did Europe get the word of the Bible, while most countries outside of the area did not get a chance to hear the word of God?

Australia did not get the Bible until 1788 AD (year of European settlement). North America did not get the Bible until 1492 AD. There are a great deal many other countries that I could list with this. So why did the natives of these countries, and many others have to wait many centuries, or even more than a millenia, to receive the word of God, and have a chance for salvation?

Firstly, it is a great error to think that the Bible is the 'Word of God' - it is merely a collection of literary 'words' about God. As I have explained before, the 'Word of God' = 'Logos' = Divine 'Name' = Spiritual/Ineffable 'Essence' of God.

No one before Moses (i.e. c. 1300 BCE) had any books of the Bible, this includes people such as Noah, Enoch, Abraham, etc. etc. - but they all knew the Word of God!

Quite simply, the true 'Word' of God is ALIVE, and is revealed only by Prophets of God. The written words are merely frozen ideas and beliefs about the Truth.

 

[joeboonda]

As a kid I went to church in the U.S. South, very sola scriptura, Hellfire and Brimstone kind of places, where I was told if I died with even one unconfessed sin on my heart I would go to Hell. I became convinced at a very early age that there was no way I could possibly expect to live up to the standards set so I gave up on the whole idea of ever going to Heaven.

The subject of the OP came up and I heard some accounts that suggested that the "Pygmies in Africa" (for some reason they were always the example of people who didn't have access to the Gospel) would get to go to Heaven because they never heard about Jesus. I immediately felt ripped off because those Pygmies living in blissful ignorance had a trip to Heaven "locked up" while I was forced to go to Church Sunday morning, Sunday night and Wednesday night, having to live to impossible standards, only to be sent to Hell if I got mowed down by a bus and my last word on Earth was a swear word!!!!

This early issue as well as the inconceivability of the whole Young Earth, Literal Flood led me on what has become a lifelong pursuit into theology, which I originally hoped would lead me to being able to accept God/Jesus while maintaining some degree of intellectual honesty, but which ultimately led me to the certainty that there was no more reason for me to buy into the Jesus phenomenon than there was for the Greeks to buy into the Zeus phenomenon.

So, that being said, don't think that the concept emboldened above is so rare, many of us on the boards that grew up in the American South were raised on just such philosophies.

B.

I would run from a religion like that, too!!! First off, when Christ died for our sins, he died for all the sins of all the world, past, present, and future. Which would include every single sin you had or ever would commit EVER. Nobody can live up to such 'standards' as religion sets, that is why Christ died to set us FREE from the Law. We are not under ANY rules or laws for salvation:

Romans 4

4 When a man works, his pay is not considered a gift. It is owed to him. 5 But things are different with God. He makes evil people right with himself. If people trust in him, their faith is accepted even though they do not work. Their faith makes them right with God. 6 King David says the same thing. He tells us how blessed some people are. God makes those people right with himself. But they don't have to do ANYTHING in return. David says,

7 "Blessed are those
whose lawless acts are forgiven.
Blessed are those
whose sins are taken away.
8 Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord never counts against him." —(Psalm 32:1,2)

God does not want us to live in fear. ALL our sins are forgiven and fully paid for already. Trust me, when I was in my early twenties (I'm 42 now), even knowing the security of my salvation, I still worried that I wasn't "good enough", that I had developed many bad habits and sins and that I "fell short'. It was only through much prayer and reading some great books that I found that Jesus loves me, no matter what, no matter what I did or didn't do, and there was nothing I needed to do or could do about it. Martin Luther had the same problem, then one day he had a dream or vision or something in which he saw a giant scroll filled with every sin he ever comitted. Then he saw the blood of Christ cover every word completely, and he realized that ALL his sins were paid in full and removed and forgotten by God! See, some folks still preach the 'ministry of condemnation', but we are to preach the 'ministry of reconciliation'. I told God long ago that If I had to reach some certain level of performance and sinlessness that there was no way I could be saved if that were the means. But it is NOT the means. Salvation is a completely, totally, absolutely FREE GIFT, "even to those who believe on his name". This is the Gospel, salvation is free to all who have believed in Christ, trusted that he did pay in full their sin debt. That's it, having done nothing to earn or merit salvation, we do nothing to keep or lose salvation, God keeps us, Jesus died for us, its all been taken care of. I won't go into the Flood and age of the earth right now, but I will say, don't quit searching, studying, reading, purchasing wisdom, and seeking God with all your heart. Christianity is not a religion, it is a person who loves you unconditionally. It is only when we understand this that we have any real desire to love others unconditionaly and love God freely and gladly. Serving God out of fear of "losing salvation' or any such nonsense is religion and is not Christ. I have lived in East Tennessee over half my life now, and I have seen what some of these 'religions', certain denominations, have done to people. Thank God I did not give up and I learned what true grace is. Well, thanks for reading this whoever does, and God bless you.
Mike

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

I would run from a religion like that, too!!! First off, when Christ died for our sins, he died for all the sins of all the world, past, present, and future. Which would include every single sin you had or ever would commit EVER. Nobody can live up to such 'standards' as religion sets, that is why Christ died to set us FREE from the Law. We are not under ANY rules or laws for salvation:

Romans 4

4 When a man works, his pay is not considered a gift. It is owed to him. 5 But things are different with God. He makes evil people right with himself. If people trust in him, their faith is accepted even though they do not work. Their faith makes them right with God. 6 King David says the same thing. He tells us how blessed some people are. God makes those people right with himself. But they don't have to do ANYTHING in return. David says,

7 "Blessed are those
whose lawless acts are forgiven.
Blessed are those
whose sins are taken away.
8 Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord never counts against him." —(Psalm 32:1,2)

God does not want us to live in fear. ALL our sins are forgiven and fully paid for already. Trust me, when I was in my early twenties (I'm 42 now), even knowing the security of my salvation, I still worried that I wasn't "good enough", that I had developed many bad habits and sins and that I "fell short'. It was only through much prayer and reading some great books that I found that Jesus loves me, no matter what, no matter what I did or didn't do, and there was nothing I needed to do or could do about it. Martin Luther had the same problem, then one day he had a dream or vision or something in which he saw a giant scroll filled with every sin he ever comitted. Then he saw the blood of Christ cover every word completely, and he realized that ALL his sins were paid in full and removed and forgotten by God! See, some folks still preach the 'ministry of condemnation', but we are to preach the 'ministry of reconciliation'. I told God long ago that If I had to reach some certain level of performance and sinlessness that there was no way I could be saved if that were the means. But it is NOT the means. Salvation is a completely, totally, absolutely FREE GIFT, "even to those who believe on his name". This is the Gospel, salvation is free to all who have believed in Christ, trusted that he did pay in full their sin debt. That's it, having done nothing to earn or merit salvation, we do nothing to keep or lose salvation, God keeps us, Jesus died for us, its all been taken care of. I won't go into the Flood and age of the earth right now, but I will say, don't quit searching, studying, reading, purchasing wisdom, and seeking God with all your heart. Christianity is not a religion, it is a person who loves you unconditionally. It is only when we understand this that we have any real desire to love others unconditionaly and love God freely and gladly. Serving God out of fear of "losing salvation' or any such nonsense is religion and is not Christ. I have lived in East Tennessee over half my life now, and I have seen what some of these 'religions', certain denominations, have done to people. Thank God I did not give up and I learned what true grace is. Well, thanks for reading this whoever does, and God bless you.
Mike

I thought that it was only satanists and masochists that believed in blood sacrifices.

 

[joeboonda]

I thought that it was only satanists and masochists that believed in blood sacrifices.

APPARENTLY NOT:
Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mark 14:24
And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
Luke 22:20
Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood...
Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Colossians 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself...
Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Hebrews 9:13-14
For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Hebrews 9:18
Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Hebrews 9:19-20
For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Hebrews 9:16-17
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

[Booko]

If the Gospel has been spread in all of the other areas of the world, how come there are no oral records of this, if not cave art depictions or so forth? Apart from the obvious conclusion that it did not occur, what possible reason could there be? Was the message not worthy of spreading? Did the people prefer their own religions?

Christianity is the most widespread religion on the fact of the planet today.

Were you upset about God's timeframe or just the idea that some believe those not exposed to the Gospel would fry eternally? The latter I can easily understand, but it is not a universally held belief even in Christianity.

From my point of view, there isn't anyone who's been left without some guidance, but then, I don't think Jesus was the only possible source either.