Question About Western Universities and Criticism of Islam or Islamism

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

As someone from the Middle East and firmly of the belief that Islamism poses a threat not just to the West but to our own region...

I'm from the West (US) and I can state firmly that I'm of the belief that "Christianity poses a threat not just to the West but to the Middle East...." See how wrong that sounds?

It's the broad brush strokes painting ALL the adherents of this or that religion as a threat that bothers me. It's not the religion, it's the fanatics of a religion that need to be called out. Ya'll have those types in the Middle East and here, they're called terrorists. We have those types in the States, export 'em all over the world and they're called missionaries. "My God is the only God, and by God, you'll come around to my way of thinking or else!" That's fanaticism.

But in both instances, there are quiet, unassuming practitioners of their faith who know and love God, irrespective of the Name they use to address that God and/or their prophets. Again I say, it's not any of the religions that are the problem, it's the fanatics who sully them.

Edit: And what I have found is that when a faithful one has an experience of God by practicing the tenets of their faith--no matter which one it is--it is the death of fanaticism in that devotee.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

A friend who studies political science in London has told me that at her university, professors and teaching assistants subtract grades from papers they disagree with and also treat papers criticizing Islam or Islamism as they would racism.

As someone from the Middle East and firmly of the belief that Islamism poses a threat not just to the West but to our own region, this deeply upset me. However, I would like to know from members living in the West how common such things are in the universities of their respective countries.

Is it common to lose grades, fail a course, etc., for criticizing Islam or Islamism? Are dissenting views given lower grades even if they contain arguments explaining why the author of the paper holds said views?

On a side note, please don't give me links to some far-right website stating the sky is falling because of Islam or Muslims. I'm looking for objective, factual answers.

Thanks in advance!

Didnt happen in any of my classes.

 

[icehorse]

It's the broad brush strokes painting ALL the adherents of this or that religion as a threat that bothers me. It's not the religion, it's the fanatics of a religion that need to be called out.

I find many of the IDEAS in both Christianity and Islam to be problematic.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Also, I did try to push things some to see how far could take things. A research presentation I gave atva research symposium featured an image of Muhammad and was "runner up" in the considering for best presentation.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

I find many of the IDEAS in both Christianity and Islam to be problematic.

I hear ya. But it's important, too, to acknowledge that in many instances, it's powerful fanatics themselves (long ago and still today) who have misinterpreted the original teachings. Man has an uncanny ability to distort the Truth to suit. For instance, Christian scripture used to teach the concept of reincarnation. But some dude in Constantinople long ago thought, "Doggone, that gives a devotee just too much time to get his act together, so we'll eliminate it in this rewrite of the Bible. Done!"

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'm from the West (US) and I can state firmly that I'm of the belief that "Christianity poses a threat not just to the West but to the Middle East...." See how wrong that sounds?

If you had said "Evangelical Christianity" or "conservative Christianity" instead, then no, I wouldn't have found that wrong.

Notice I said "Islamism"--which often refers to fundamentalist, fanatic strains of Islam rather than the whole religion--and not "Islam" full stop.

It's the broad brush strokes painting ALL the adherents of this or that religion as a threat that bothers me. It's not the religion, it's the fanatics of a religion that need to be called out. Ya'll have those types in the Middle East and here, they're called terrorists. We have those types in the States, export 'em all over the world and they're called missionaries. "My God is the only God, and by God, you'll come around to my way of thinking or else!" That's fanaticism.

I wasn't even thinking of terrorists when I made the statement. I was thinking of the far more common ones: homophobes, sexists, and religious bigots who want to restrict others' rights and persecute minorities they disagree with.

And I agree about the broad brush painting all adherents as a threat. That's not what I said, though--I didn't even say "Islamists." I'm often careful to specify when I'm talking about ideologies rather than people.

But in both instances, there are quiet, unassuming practitioners of their faith who know and love God, irrespective of the Name they use to address that God and/or their prophets. Again I say, it's not any of the religions that are the problem, it's the fanatics who sully them.

You're not telling me anything I don't know, since I'm sure we've both dealt with many moderate practitioners. That's still beside the point I made about a specific ideology, though.

Edit: And what I have found is that when a faithful one has an experience of God by practicing the tenets of their faith--no matter which one it is--it is the death of fanaticism in that devotee.

I suspect a few years of living in one of the more conservative Arab countries and actively seeking to gauge opinions on certain issues (e.g., same-sex marriage) or looking up studies and polls about prevalent beliefs in some parts of the Middle East could probably change your mind.

The idea that most Muslims, at least ones in the Arab world, don't have any extremist or harmful religious beliefs is probably as naive and incorrect as the idea that most Muslims support terrorism.

 

[Debater Slayer]

It would depend on the context of the assignment. Instructors get to set the parameters for an assignment and what their expectations of it are. Often that involves some sort of rubric they use to more objectively assess papers.

For example, if the assignment specifies a student is to write an essay that examines both the merits and flaws of some particular ideology but the student instead writes something one-sided, they would be docked accordingly for failing to follow instructions. It's not that it is wrong to only write about the merits or the flaws, but that isn't what the assignment asked for.

When I would write papers for philosophy courses, considering points and counterpoints is simply expected form. You are supposed to anticipate objections and shed light on how the other side can be reasonable given different sets of assumptions. This style of writing helps students to think more critically about the subject and see the merits in other points of view, even if it isn't the perspective they are arguing for in their paper. I never did a college-level political science course, so maybe the style standards are different there, though.

Also to add, most of the time students are making excuses or don't understand the assignment. I see this happen a lot. The sad fact is a lot of college students are shockingly bad writers given their level of education. There are stories I can tell about that, but I'll just share this one.

There's one lab course within our curriculum for instance that holds students to a higher standard than they are used to for their lab reports. I usually get at least one student each semester complain to me about this course and how they were docked points for "trivial" things. I explain to them how this course is intending to prepare them for a professional level of writing that will be expected of them when they enter the workforce as a scientist. I'll remind them that the university has an office dedicated to helping students with written assignments. Most importantly, I'll aim to inspire them to rise to the challenge - yes, it's hard, but you can do it! Nobody writes a perfect lab report the first time - it's just a very different style. But you can learn that style if you work at it!

Thanks a lot! Knowing your background of working in academia, I appreciate your informative posts even more.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Was her argument sound, well supported with data? Maybe herr argument ingored entire sets of data and more rigorous analysis. Students often make bad arguments.

I have no idea. I didn't ask her to send me the essay itself, of course.

 

[Debater Slayer]

It might be a bit off topic to say it, but has she considered putting her Islamism paper online in the form of a blog or something so we can view it?

She hasn't written one herself, but I think she would consider putting one online if she wrote it.

 

[Debater Slayer]

hmmm.. I've heard her talk and debate concerning Islam many times, and I've never heard anything like "far-right lunatic". Do you have a link?

Yes, but I think that's way off topic in this thread. I'd rather keep that can of worms for another thread.

I'm a moderate liberal, and I think the fact that almost 2 billion people chose to adhere to Islam is a HUGE problem. The ideas contained in Islam are, anti-human rights, misogynistic, homophobic, theocratic, and supremacist, just to name a few.

Is the sky falling? No, but Islam is still a huge problem.

I've met pro-LGBT, feminist, and secularist Muslims. It almost entirely depends on what interpretations or version of Islam one follows. Clearly, the religion itself isn't irreconcilable with modern humanist values if there are such Muslims, whom I believe everyone should support and encourage instead of labeling them "fake" or "casual" believers.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

If you had said "Evangelical Christianity" or "conservative Christianity" instead, then no, I wouldn't have found that wrong.

Notice I said "Islamism"--which often refers to fundamentalist, fanatic strains of Islam rather than the whole religion--and not "Islam" full stop.



I wasn't even thinking of terrorists when I made the statement. I was thinking of the far more common ones: homophobes, sexists, and religious bigots who want to restrict others' rights and persecute minorities they disagree with.

And I agree about the broad brush painting all adherents as a threat. That's not what I said, though--I didn't even say "Islamists." I'm often careful to specify when I'm talking about ideologies rather than people.



You're not telling me anything I don't know, since I'm sure we've both dealt with many moderate practitioners. That's still beside the point I made about a specific ideology, though.



I suspect a few years of living in one of the more conservative Arab countries and actively seeking to gauge opinions on certain issues (e.g., same-sex marriage) or looking up studies and polls about prevalent beliefs in some parts of the Middle East could probably change your mind.

The idea that most Muslims, at least ones in the Arab world, don't have any extremist or harmful religious beliefs is probably as naive and incorrect as the idea that most Muslims support terrorism.

Thank you for taking the time to reply at such length! You are correct, I did not distinguish (nor did I realize the need to distinguish) between Evangelical/Conservative Christianity vs. Christianity and Islamism vs. Islam. I do believe, however, we are both speaking about the fanatical adherents of those faiths. Your preciseness in wording is appreciated and acknowledged.

I will still respectfully disagree, however, with your final statements. If a "devotee has an experience of God" and still has elements of religious bias, extremism and judgment in their character, then that itself is conclusive evidence that they have NOT had a true experience of God. Those experiences are rare, by the way.

 

[epronovost]

I have no idea. I didn't ask her to send me the essay itself, of course.

I'de be curious to read her essay too. If it's on slavery, it's right down my alley. I'm a college history teacher.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm from the West (US) and I can state firmly that I'm of the belief that "Christianity poses a threat not just to the West but to the Middle East...." See how wrong that sounds?

No. The texts of Christianity condemn many people to death, it permits slavery, promotes misogyny, and many Christians have zero respect for other humans, especially when their is something about that ither human the Christian doesn't approve of. Amd, of course, there is its history, which is rife with examples of being a serious threat to many.

 

[Tambourine]

"Criticism" can take many different forms, which can be more or less acceptable to others based on context.

If you ascribe "criticism" in a form that is not appropriate to an academic environment, and in a context where that specific subject is not considered appropriate (say, while writing an assignment that has absolutely nothing at all to do with Islam, or Muslims, or even religion) then I would say it makes total sense to make students known that their criticism is not appropriate to that venue.

If my German class was doing writing assignments and one of my students wrote a rant on how Islam is evil, then I'd dock them points, too, for not following the outline of the assignment in question.

 

[icehorse]

Yes, but I think that's way off topic in this thread. I'd rather keep that can of worms for another thread.

You opened the door, but okay..

I've met pro-LGBT, feminist, and secularist Muslims. It almost entirely depends on what interpretations or version of Islam one follows. Clearly, the religion itself isn't irreconcilable with modern humanist values if there are such Muslims, whom I believe everyone should support and encourage instead of labeling them "fake" or "casual" believers.

What I think we should do is encourage a reform and new version of Islam.

 

[Tambourine]

What I think we should do is encourage a reform and new version of Islam.

Because you consider the latest versions of Christianity pioneers of enlightened tolerance and pro-science thinking?

 

[icehorse]

Because you consider the latest versions of Christianity pioneers of enlightened tolerance and pro-science thinking?

Oh! A guessing game!

Nope, bad guess, care to try again?

 

[gnomon]

A friend who studies political science in London has told me that at her university, professors and teaching assistants subtract grades from papers they disagree with and also treat papers criticizing Islam or Islamism as they would racism.

As someone from the Middle East and firmly of the belief that Islamism poses a threat not just to the West but to our own region, this deeply upset me. However, I would like to know from members living in the West how common such things are in the universities of their respective countries.

Is it common to lose grades, fail a course, etc., for criticizing Islam or Islamism? Are dissenting views given lower grades even if they contain arguments explaining why the author of the paper holds said views?

On a side note, please don't give me links to some far-right website stating the sky is falling because of Islam or Muslims. I'm looking for objective, factual answers.

Thanks in advance!

Are they criticizing Islam or Wahhabism? There is a difference. And I'm just taking a guess at this point. I have never experienced anything like that but I am twenty years out from university.

Dissenting views should be accepted if they are presented in a logical manner. I don't know how your friend presented their argument......

So.....to be honest I doubt the validity of this post.