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Question for all jws

Misty Woods

A Child of Our Almighty Creator Jehovah
Yes, God's spirit is what sustains life. Adam's life depended on it. If he had only listened, and obeyed, he would have been sustained for ever, just as obedient ones of the great crowd will be.
Yes, God's spirit is what sustains life. Adam's life depended on it. If he had only listened, and obeyed, he would have been sustained for ever, just as obedient ones of the great crowd will be.


Matthew 10:37 “Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me”

Matthew 19:29 “And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit everlasting life”

Luke 14:26“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple”

It seems as though that perfect human Adam must have loved his wife more than he loved our father Jehovah. Not only did Adam accept his wife’s disobedience to our Creator, but he chose to join her in her disobedience.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
There is no teaching of an immortal soul in the ancient Jewish texts.

Bible and Jewish religion hadn't been so monolithic. There were different views on death and afterlife.

OT: All dead go to back to earth (Sheol) and stay there. No resurrection.

OT: Spirit of the dead prophet Samuel.

OT: Resurrection of the righteous in the world to come.

OT: Resurrection and judgment of the dead, both wicked and righteous.

OT (Wisdom): "But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and no torment will ever touch them. In the eyes of the foolish they seemed to have died, and their departure was thought to be an affliction, and their going from us to be their destruction; but they are at peace. For though in the sight of men they were punished, their hope is full of immortality."

NT: Elijah and Moses on the mount Tabor.

NT: The dead are conscious, dwelling somewhere in realms beyond, and awaiting, either in torment or comfort, the final judgment. Like rich man and Lazarus (with Abraham) for example.

Josephus: already cited.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
Tthe fact that you stated that this was "in the time of Jesus" is important.....please tell me what good things Jesus had to say about the Pharisees and their teachings...

Martyrs were those who had the courage to face death for their faith. Jesus did not even mention the Essenes.

"The Essenes probably were killed or forced to flee from their wilderness community c. AD 68, yet some of their ideas can still be traced in the ministry of John the Baptist (who might have been an Essene) and in the thought world of the New Testament." (Britannica)

Gospels were not written when things happened. They mention past things but in the light of current situation.

... most scholars date the composition of the Christian gospels to between 70 and 100 CE, a time after Christianity had separated from Judaism (and after Pharisaism emerged as the dominant form of Judaism). Rather than an accurate account of Jesus' relationship to Pharisees and other Jewish leaders, this view holds that the Gospels instead reflect the competition and conflict between early Christians and Pharisees for leadership of the Jews, or reflects Christian attempts to distance themselves from Jews in order to present themselves in a more sympathetic (and benign) light to Romans and other Gentiles...

Some scholars believe that those passages of the New Testament that are seemingly most hostile to the Pharisees were written sometime after the destruction of Herod's Temple in 70 CE.[76][77] Only Christianity and Pharisaism survived the destruction of the Temple, and the two competed for a short time until the Pharisees emerged as the dominant form of Judaism. When many Jews did not convert, Christians sought new converts from among the Gentiles.[78] Christians had to explain why converts should listen to them rather than the Non-Messianic Jews, concerning the Hebrew Bible, and also had to dissociate themselves with the rebellious Jews who so often rejected Roman authority and authority in general. They thus were perceived to have had presented a story of Jesus that was more sympathetic to Romans than to Jews. (Wiki)

More on early Christianity and Judaism: Jewish Christian - Wikipedia
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
Ah, but most JWs are Gentiles, and a few of them say THEY are the part of the 144,000--more false JW doctrine...

Acts 15:14 ....Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.''
1 Peter 2: 9 ''But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies” of the One who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 For you were once not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not been shown mercy, but now you have received mercy.''

these people do not have to be Jewish. they are invited/chosen from the nations . all believing that Jesus is the Christ .
 

Misty Woods

A Child of Our Almighty Creator Jehovah
Bible and Jewish religion hadn't been so monolithic. There were different views on death and afterlife.

OT: All dead go to back to earth (Sheol) and stay there. No resurrection.

OT: Spirit of the dead prophet Samuel.

OT: Resurrection of the righteous in the world to come.

OT: Resurrection and judgment of the dead, both wicked and righteous.

OT (Wisdom): "But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and no torment will ever touch them. In the eyes of the foolish they seemed to have died, and their departure was thought to be an affliction, and their going from us to be their destruction; but they are at peace. For though in the sight of men they were punished, their hope is full of immortality."

NT: Elijah and Moses on the mount Tabor.

NT: The dead are conscious, dwelling somewhere in realms beyond, and awaiting, either in torment or comfort, the final judgment. Like rich man and Lazarus (with Abraham) for example.

Josephus: already cited.

Exactly what scriptures from the Old Testament, and New Testament are you getting these thoughts ?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Acts 15:14 ....Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.''
1 Peter 2: 9 ''But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies” of the One who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 For you were once not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not been shown mercy, but now you have received mercy.''

these people do not have to be Jewish. they are invited/chosen from the nations . all believing that Jesus is the Christ .

The CHURCH is Gentile and Jewish. The 144,000 in Revelation 7 are JEWS, named by birth tribe.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
do you perhaps under stand what it means to be a spiritual Jew? i am referring to Acts 15:14 and 1 Peter 2: 9 . they are people that act and think more like what the jew's should of been doing than were the Jew's that were born Jew.
the book Revelation is a book written using symbols to illustrate the events of the future . little of it can be taken literally.
(Romans 2:29) But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people.
(Galatians 3:29) Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise
Romans 9
6 However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
Exactly what scriptures from the Old Testament, and New Testament are you getting these thoughts ?
OK. Here are some examples of the changing and evolving beliefs.

1. All dead go back to earth (Sheol) and stay there. No judgment and no resurrection.

Genesis 3:19

Job 14:10-12

Psalms 146:4

Ecclesiastes 3:20

2. Spirit of the dead can come back, communicate and know the future

1 Samuel 28

3. Resurrection of the righteous (only) in the world to come. The wicked will end in Sheol.

Psalms 49:13-15

Isaiah 26:19

4. Resurrection and judgment of the dead, both wicked and righteous.

Daniel 12:2-3

5. The dead are conscious in other realms and waiting for the final judgement

Luke 16:19-31

Luke 23:43

1 Peter 3:18-20

1 Peter 4:6

Revelation 6:9-11

Revelation 7:9-12

Mark 12:27

(Find more here: What the Bible Says About Death, Afterlife and the Future)
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
OK. Here are some examples of the changing and evolving beliefs.

1. All dead go back to earth (Sheol) and stay there. No judgment and no resurrection.

Genesis 3:19

Job 14:10-12

Psalms 146:4

Ecclesiastes 3:20

2. Spirit of the dead can come back, communicate and know the future

1 Samuel 28

3. Resurrection of the righteous (only) in the world to come. The wicked will end in Sheol.

Psalms 49:13-15

Isaiah 26:19

4. Resurrection and judgment of the dead, both wicked and righteous.

Daniel 12:2-3

5. The dead are conscious in other realms and waiting for the final judgement

Luke 16:19-31

Luke 23:43

1 Peter 3:18-20

1 Peter 4:6

Revelation 6:9-11

Revelation 7:9-12

Mark 12:27

(Find more here: What the Bible Says About Death, Afterlife and the Future)
ummmm no
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Matthew 10:37 “Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me”

Matthew 19:29 “And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit everlasting life”

Luke 14:26“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple”

It seems as though that perfect human Adam must have loved his wife more than he loved our father Jehovah. Not only did Adam accept his wife’s disobedience to our Creator, but he chose to join her in her disobedience.
What was Adam thinking? ;)
 

Misty Woods

A Child of Our Almighty Creator Jehovah
OK. Here are some examples of the changing and evolving beliefs.

1. All dead go back to earth (Sheol) and stay there. No judgment and no resurrection.

Genesis 3:19

Job 14:10-12

Psalms 146:4

Ecclesiastes 3:20

2. Spirit of the dead can come back, communicate and know the future

1 Samuel 28

3. Resurrection of the righteous (only) in the world to come. The wicked will end in Sheol.

Psalms 49:13-15

Isaiah 26:19

4. Resurrection and judgment of the dead, both wicked and righteous.

Daniel 12:2-3

5. The dead are conscious in other realms and waiting for the final judgement

Luke 16:19-31

Luke 23:43

1 Peter 3:18-20

1 Peter 4:6

Revelation 6:9-11

Revelation 7:9-12

Mark 12:27

(Find more here: What the Bible Says About Death, Afterlife and the Future)
Wow, you got a lot going on there, but I greatly appreciate your response. It really helped me at honing my research, and I do hope that I hear back from you. Take good care
Job 14:10 “But a man dies and lies powerless;When a human expires,
where is he?
”(Ecc 3:19,20) (Ecc 9:10) (Gen 3:19) (Ps 104:29) (Ecc 3:20) (Ecc 9:5) “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, ,,, (Ps 146 :4) “His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.”
Job 14:12 “Man also lies down and does not get up. Until heaven is no more, they will not wake up, Nor will they be aroused from their sleep.”(Ps.13:3) (John 11:11) “After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.”( Act 7:59,60) “As they were stoning Stephen, …… he fell asleep in death.”
Reading further into Job 14, looking into verses 13 and 14, it says; That you would hide me until your anger passes by, That you would set a time limit for me and remember me!If a man dies, can he live again? I will wait all the days of my compulsory service Until my relief comes.”
(John 11:25)
Jesus said The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;
(Acts 26:8) Why is it considered unbelievable among you that God raises up the dead?(1 Cor 15:12) “Now if it is being preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how is it that some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead?” (Rev 20:13) “And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Grave gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.
At Job 14:15 “You will call, and I will answer you”
One of the most beautiful scriptures is (Isa.26:19)
“Your dead will live. My corpses will rise up. Awake and shout joyfully,
You residents in the dust! For your dew is as the dew of the morning, And the earth will let those powerless in death come to life.”

(Daniel 12:13) but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days. (John 5:28,29) all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.” -------
(John 11:43,44) The man who had been dead came out with his feet and hands bound with wrappings, and his face was wrapped with a cloth.
(Acts 24:15) there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
Concerning King Saul and the spirit medium
The setting was a battlefield in northern Israel. King Saul and his forces were confronted by a fearsome Philistine army. When Saul got to see the camp of the Philistines, “his heart began to tremble very much.” At this point in his kingship, Saul had abandoned true worship. (1Sam 15:23) “for rebelliousness is the same as the sin of divination, and pushing ahead presumptuously the same as using magical power and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of Jehovah, he has rejected you from being king.” As a result, his pleadings to Jehovah were answered with silence. (1 Sam. 28:3, 5, 6)
Saul begged the spirit medium to “bring up Samuel” from the dead. The medium summoned an apparition. This “Samuel” told Saul that the Philistines would prevail and that Saul and his sons would die in battle. (1 Samuel 28:7-19) Was that really Samuel returned from the dead?
Think about it. The Bible states that at death a person “goes back to his ground” and that “his thoughts do perish.” (Psalm 146:4) Both Saul and Samuel knew that God condemned contact with spirit mediums (Lev.19:31) (Lev 20:6) ”As for the person who turns to the spirit mediums and the fortune-tellers so as to commit spiritual prostitution with them, I will certainly turn against that person and cut him off from his people.”(Deut 18:10-12) In fact, Saul had earlier taken the lead in ridding the land of spiritistic practices!
If faithful Samuel were still alive as a spirit, would he violate God’s law and cooperate with a spirit medium in order to meet Saul? Jehovah had refused to talk with Saul. Could a medium, in effect, force God Almighty to communicate with Saul by means of dead Samuel? Logically, No. Clearly, this “Samuel” was not God’s faithful prophet in any form. It was a spirit—a wicked demon pretending to be dead Samuel(1Sam 16:14-17) Now the spirit of Jehovah had departed from Saul, and a bad spirit from Jehovah terrorized him. The servants of Saul said to him: “You see that a bad spirit from God is terrorizing you. ……. Whenever a bad spirit from God comes upon you, ,,,,,, (1 Sam 18:10) a bad spirit from God gripped Saul, and he started to act strangely inside the house,,,, (1 Sam 19:9) And a bad spirit from Jehovah came upon Saul.. Notice that this bad spirit had been tormenting Saul for some time before he gave in to the demon and consulted with a spirit medium at 1Sam 28.
(1 Chron.10:13) Saul died….because he had not obeyed the word of Jehovah, also for consulting a spirit medium
(Luke 16:19-31) This is one of Jesus many parables, and therefore is not meant to be taken literally. Jesus here uses the rich man to represent the Jewish religious leaders, including not only the Pharisees and the scribes but the Sadducees and the chief priests as well. This proud rich-man class views the poor, common people with utter contempt, calling them ‛am ha·’aʹrets, or people of the earth. The beggar Lazarus represents these people to whom the religious leaders deny proper spiritual nourishment and privileges. Hence, like Lazarus covered with ulcers, the common people are looked down upon as spiritually diseased and fit only to associate with dogs. Yet, those of the Lazarus class hunger and thirst for spiritual nourishment and so are at the gate seeking to receive whatever meager morsels of spiritual food may drop from the rich man’s table.
(Luke 23:43) This promise made to the criminal hanging next to Jesus was not the promise to be in “the paradise of God” mentioned at Re 2:7, since that promise was made to “the one who conquers,” that is, Christ’s corulers in the heavenly Kingdom. (Lu 22:28-30) This criminal was not a conqueror of the world with Jesus Christ; nor had he been “born from water and spirit.” (Joh 3:5; 16:33) He will evidently be one of “the unrighteous” who are resurrected as earthly subjects of the Kingdom when Christ rules over the Paradise earth for a thousand years.—Ac 24:15; Re 20:4, 6.
(1 Peter 18-20) Jesus was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day,” …….. If you’ve been following along thus far, then you must be aware of the existence of bad spirits. (Jude 6) “And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place, he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.” See also (2 Peter:4) Eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day seems to indicate that they are greatly restricted, unable again to materialize as they did prior to the Flood. They were cut off from the spiritual light of God’s organization, and they have only everlasting destruction awaiting them. (James 2:19) “You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.”
Since the time of the Flood, God has not permitted these demon angels to take on fleshly bodies, so they cannot directly satisfy their unnatural sexual desires. Yet they can still exercise dangerous power over men and women. In fact, with the help of these demons Satan is “misleading the entire inhabited earth.” (Revelation 12:9) Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.”
Paul said: We have a wrestling . . . against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.Ephesians 6:11-13.
(Acts 16:16-19) a servant girl with a spirit, a demon
At (Mark 12:18-27), Jesus knew the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, yet supposedly accepted the writings of Moses, were trying to entrap him so that they would have sound reason to persecute him. So Jesus quoted from Moses writings “But concerning the dead being raised up, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account about the thornbush, that God said to him: ‘I am the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob’? He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living. ... At that time, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had been dead for many years. Each of them were faithful servants of the True God Jehovah. Do you believe that Jehovah would no longer consider Himself their God? Obviously the Sadducees failed to entrap Jesus.
(Revelations)adds its testimony to many other Bible prophecies, showing that our father Jehovah God purposes to create new heavens and a new earth. (Isaiah 65:17; 66:22; 2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1-5) Primarily, its message is addressed to anointed Christians, whom Jesus has bought with his blood to become corulers with him in the new heavens. (Revelation 5:9, 10) Who are the anointed? (Rev.7:4) (Rev.14:1) And who will the anointed Christians that are with Jesus rule over? (Rev.7:9,10) (Isa.2:2)
2 Timothy 3:16,17
“All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work”
So which is wiser?
To make the clear statements of scripture conform to our imperfect human conceptions of what may be implied?????
Or
To believe the clear teaching of our Creator’s Inspired Scripture, and accept that these perceived implications might be due to our misunderstanding of scripture or completely in error?????
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
]1 Samuel 28:7-19) If faithful Samuel were still alive as a spirit, would he violate God’s law and cooperate with a spirit medium in order to meet Saul?
Thank you for your reply. Yes, I still think it was Samuel. Samuel himself didn't violate God's law because he didn't contact the medium and he didn't call a spirit from the dead. The bad spirit tormenting Saul is a different one.

(Luke 16:19-31) This is one of Jesus many parables, and therefore is not meant to be taken literally.
I continued this discussion in another thread:
Do you think this points to the body having a spirit that goes beyond death?

I am sorry, I joined the discussion here - it was meant only for jw. I'm just interested in different views.
So which is wiser?
To make the clear statements of scripture conform to our imperfect human conceptions of what may be implied?????
Or
To believe the clear teaching of our Creator’s Inspired Scripture, and accept that these perceived implications might be due to our misunderstanding of scripture or completely in error?????
The teaching is not so clear.
1. Scripture is inspired not dictated.
2. History was mixed with myth.
3. Inspired message was expressed through imperfect human understanding and that at some temporary stage of development.

I don't pretend to be infallible and know everything. I think it's wise to make things clear by study, research and divine inspiration.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Gen.3
12 "The man said: “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree, so I ate.” Adam was obviously NOT thinking to accept his own responsibility. ;)
First time I noticed... Adam sounds like a two year old blaming his eight year old sister. :grin:
 
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