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Question for Anti-Trump Democrats

ecco

Veteran Member
Well, thank you very much for proving my point.

You think I just proved your point? Really? You asked for the reasons for my left bias. Then you raised the question if my bias was based on my own observations of the right or just based on what my left wing sources tell me what the conservatives REALLY think?"

In response I posted...
Liberal Bias Confirmation:
Right Wing Conservatives want abortion banned.
Right Wing Conservatives want school prayer instituted.
Right Wing Conservatives made it impossible to pledge my allegiance to this country.
Right Wing Conservative leaders were people like Let's lie and start a war on drugs Nixon, Let's lie about nukes and invade Iraq Bush (ignoring Bin Laden), and Let's lie about everything Trump.
Right Wing Conservative sheeples believe and cheer Trump lies.
Right Wing Conservatives don't believe in AGW.
Right Wing Conservatives hate unions.
Is that enough reason?
...all based on observational evidence.

If you were right that I just proved your point, then my statement "Right Wing Conservatives want abortion banned" would have to be based on hearsay from the leftist librul media. But that isn't the case at all. There are posters on this very forum who are Right Wing Conservatives who want abortion banned.

Is the following a fake news picture? Or is it a picture of Right Wing Conservatives want abortion banned?
annual-right-life-march-passes-450w-620193926.jpg


I can make similar comments and provide similar evidence for all the items I listed.

So, no, I did not prove your point. Your point that my bias is based on what my left-wing sources tell rather than on my own observations is complete tripe.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
You think I just proved your point? Really? You asked for the reasons for my left bias. Then you raised the question if my bias was based on my own observations of the right or just based on what my left wing sources tell me what the conservatives REALLY think?"

In response I posted...

...all based on observational evidence.

If you were right that I just proved your point, then my statement "Right Wing Conservatives want abortion banned" would have to be based on hearsay from the leftist librul media. But that isn't the case at all. There are posters on this very forum who are Right Wing Conservatives who want abortion banned.

Is the following a fake news picture? Or is it a picture of Right Wing Conservatives want abortion banned?


I can make similar comments and provide similar evidence for all the items I listed.

So, no, I did not prove your point. Your point that my bias is based on what my left-wing sources tell rather than on my own observations is complete tripe.

And you are cherry picking to prove a point.
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I just watched the movie "fifth element" and one character in the movie reminded me so much of Trump that I should note it here--

This character fits Trump to a tee—


dark side.gif
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
You think I just proved your point? Really? You asked for the reasons for my left bias. Then you raised the question if my bias was based on my own observations of the right or just based on what my left wing sources tell me what the conservatives REALLY think?"

In response I posted...

...all based on observational evidence.

If you were right that I just proved your point, then my statement "Right Wing Conservatives want abortion banned" would have to be based on hearsay from the leftist librul media. But that isn't the case at all. There are posters on this very forum who are Right Wing Conservatives who want abortion banned.

You say that like it's a bad thing, ecco. *I* want abortion made unthinkable. That has to come from within the culture, not imposed by law from without, but it's becoming obvious to me that something has to be done. Me, I'm all for 'choice.' However, as soon as another human life is involved in that choice, I figure that one has made the choice and now has to deal with the consequences of it.


Is the following a fake news picture? Or is it a picture of Right Wing Conservatives want abortion banned?
annual-right-life-march-passes-450w-620193926.jpg


I can make similar comments and provide similar evidence for all the items I listed.

So, no, I did not prove your point. Your point that my bias is based on what my left-wing sources tell rather than on my own observations is complete tripe.

You are correct. Many conservatives want abortion banned. Many don't. The reason you illustrated my point regarding liberal bias is...I'll take your points individually.


ecco said:
Liberal Bias Confirmation:
Right Wing Conservatives want abortion banned.

Yes. Some do. Not all do. I want it...not 'banned,' but something no woman would think of doing, and few women would have to do because they were responsible BEFORE they had sex, and the only reason for an abortion would be danger to the physical life of the mother or her having been raped. (thus her choice was taken from her).

ecco said:
Right Wing Conservatives want school prayer instituted.

Some do. Most don't...and while the liberals characterize "they want school prayer instituted,' they mean 'school prayer at the beginning of every single class in public as well as private school, prayer to the evangelical Protestant version of God," most conservatives simply want students to have the freedom to pray themselves, on campus...to have religious school clubs that are treated like all other student clubs, and to be allowed to mention personal faith in graduation speeches. They resent very much being forbidden their own ability to pray when those same schools set aside rooms for the express purpose of allowing Muslim students to perform their Salat. That happened in the high school I went to, AMOF; two students were suspended for silently praying near the flag pole (they were not allowed to go into an empty classroom for this purpose, but Muslim students...and we have quite a few Muslims in the valley here...were given a room for the specific purpose of Salat. As far as I am aware, that classroom is still set aside for that purpose. I DO NOT OBJECT to the classroom for Salat.

I DO object to Christians being told that they can't have equal privileges to pray.

Nobody with any sense wants official school prayer, and frankly? I don't know many conservatives who want that either. As LDS, I certainly would prefer that my kids, if there is praying to be done, do it 'right,' and evangelicals (and most others) don't do it 'right." What we want...what all of us want...is the freedom that the First Amendment guarantees: that the state STAY OUT OF IT, and allow us to live our religions as we believe. That means...give the Muslims a room for Salat. Let Christians have religious after school clubs. Let students who feel the need silently pray by the flagpole...or in a place reserved for that. Give that to all religions...and allow those students who have none go merrily on their way without being forced to sit there while someone prays either correctly or incorrectly.

I believe that most conservatives would agree with this.


ecco said:
Right Wing Conservatives made it impossible to pledge my allegiance to this country.

That's your problem...and your privilege. Freedom of religion also means that you can exercise your own beliefs, and if "under God" offends them, then you have the right not to say it.

BTW, The original pledge did not have 'under God' in it, and I, personally, wouldn't mind going back to the original.

ecco said:
Right Wing Conservative leaders were people like Let's lie and start a war on drugs Nixon, Let's lie about nukes and invade Iraq Bush (ignoring Bin Laden), and Let's lie about everything Trump.

That's your political problem. On the other hand, I am not really happy with "Let's gut Social Security to fund the VietNam War" Johnson, "Let's get stupid with the economy" Carter, "I can rape, molest and do anything I want with any woman I want and then lie my assets off, and while I'm doing that, I can rob the Mormons blind, take all their land and end up doing worse for it and the ecology around it than they and the native Americans I took it from did, and everybody will love me anyway" Clinton (OK, other than that he wasn't all that bad), or "Let's make sure that healthcare premiums explode for the middle class and make it almost impossible for them to GET insurance, never mind pay for it, and I spent twenty years listening to the most racist preacher on the planet but I wasn't affected by that one little bit" Obama...

Yeah, the Republican presidents also had their problems...but Nixon ENDED the Vietnam war, Reagan ended the Cold War, and Bush handled some very nasty national emergencies pretty darned well.

I am not a Republican, btw.

ecco said:
Right Wing Conservative sheeples believe and cheer Trump lies.

And left wing sheeples believe anything that Pelosi, Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez sneeze.

ecco said:
Right Wing Conservatives don't believe in AGW.

Some don't. Some do. Most understand that the climate is changing, but that humans...though they may exacerbate it, are not solely responsible. Nor can killing off 9/10s of the human race and going back to hunter-gathering fix it. Nor do they believe, as a whole, that it's fair to blame the USA for it (and they do...) when in fact India and China produce more greenhouse gasses than America and the EU combined.

From Forbes magazine:
https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Frrapier%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F07%2FAsia-Pacific-CO2.jpg

ecco said:
Right Wing Conservatives hate unions.

Some do. Some belong to unions. I am a fan of unions which deal fairly with both workers and employers. I am NOT a fan of those (and I was forced to belong to one for years) which not only make membership mandatory for workers in specific areas (teacher's union) but gather dues and use them for political purposes that are directly opposed to the membership in general. I am opposed to unions which are politically biased...and unfortunately, most are.

Conservatives, as a rule, would agree with the above, I believe.
ecco said:
Is that enough reason?

No. You have committed a bunch of fallacies here...most of which are included under 'generalization."

Yes, there are extreme right wingers who are global warming deniers, who bomb abortion clinics and want to make all public schools into Protestant religious schools.

On the other hand, I can point to liberals who are literal communist/socialists, who want the government to take the wealth from everybody and distribute it as they decide, who want to go the way of Greece and Venezuela, thinking that even though history has shown that their economic and political ideas simply don't work, that somehow THEY can make 'em go. I can point to liberals who want to ban all religion from the country...they believe that it is 'freedom FROM religion, not freedom OF" so that they have the right to impose their beliefs and practices upon everybody...even more than some militant religious group might. These are those who sue people for putting crosses on their lawns at Christmas, who want to remove the non-profit tax provisions from anything even remotely related to a religion, who believe that children should be taught in school that there IS no God, and who believe that only the 'appropriate' humans should be allowed to reproduce, so that the population of the earth can be cut to the point that hunter-gathering would sustain the remaining people. Of course, they get to determine who is 'appropriate."

I can point to them, but I don't think you would agree that their attitudes comprise the whole, or even the majority, of liberal thought, would you?

But that's what YOU are doing to the right, and that's why I said you illustrated my point, which was that you are very biased, to the point of being unwilling to even look at what the 'other side' might say. You are swallowing the kool-aide too, ecco. Just a different flavor, is all.
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
You say that like it's a bad thing, ecco. *I* want abortion made unthinkable. That has to come from within the culture, not imposed by law from without, but it's becoming obvious to me that something has to be done. Me, I'm all for 'choice.' However, as soon as another human life is involved in that choice, I figure that one has made the choice and now has to deal with the consequences of it.




You are correct. Many conservatives want abortion banned. Many don't. The reason you illustrated my point regarding liberal bias is...I'll take your points individually.




Yes. Some do. Not all do. I want it...not 'banned,' but something no woman would think of doing, and few women would have to do because they were responsible BEFORE they had sex, and the only reason for an abortion would be danger to the physical life of the mother or her having been raped. (thus her choice was taken from her).



Some do. Most don't...and while the liberals characterize "they want school prayer instituted,' they mean 'school prayer at the beginning of every single class in public as well as private school, prayer to the evangelical Protestant version of God," most conservatives simply want students to have the freedom to pray themselves, on campus...to have religious school clubs that are treated like all other student clubs, and to be allowed to mention personal faith in graduation speeches. They resent very much being forbidden their own ability to pray when those same schools set aside rooms for the express purpose of allowing Muslim students to perform their Salat. That happened in the high school I went to, AMOF; two students were suspended for silently praying near the flag pole (they were not allowed to go into an empty classroom for this purpose, but Muslim students...and we have quite a few Muslims in the valley here...were given a room for the specific purpose of Salat. As far as I am aware, that classroom is still set aside for that purpose. I DO NOT OBJECT to the classroom for Salat.

I DO object to Christians being told that they can't have equal privileges to pray.

Nobody with any sense wants official school prayer, and frankly? I don't know many conservatives who want that either. As LDS, I certainly would prefer that my kids, if there is praying to be done, do it 'right,' and evangelicals (and most others) don't do it 'right." What we want...what all of us want...is the freedom that the First Amendment guarantees: that the state STAY OUT OF IT, and allow us to live our religions as we believe. That means...give the Muslims a room for Salat. Let Christians have religious after school clubs. Let students who feel the need silently pray by the flagpole...or in a place reserved for that. Give that to all religions...and allow those students who have none go merrily on their way without being forced to sit there while someone prays either correctly or incorrectly.

I believe that most conservatives would agree with this.




That's your problem...and your privilege. Freedom of religion also means that you can exercise your own beliefs, and if "under God" offends them, then you have the right not to say it.

BTW, The original pledge did not have 'under God' in it, and I, personally, wouldn't mind going back to the original.



That's your political problem. On the other hand, I am not really happy with "Let's gut Social Security to fund the VietNam War" Johnson, "Let's get stupid with the economy" Carter, "I can rape, molest and do anything I want with any woman I want and then lie my assets off, and while I'm doing that, I can rob the Mormons blind, take all their land and end up doing worse for it and the ecology around it than they and the native Americans I took it from did, and everybody will love me anyway" Clinton (OK, other than that he wasn't all that bad), or "Let's make sure that healthcare premiums explode for the middle class and make it almost impossible for them to GET insurance, never mind pay for it, and I spent twenty years listening to the most racist preacher on the planet but I wasn't affected by that one little bit" Obama...

Yeah, the Republican presidents also had their problems...but Nixon ENDED the Vietnam war, Reagan ended the Cold War, and Bush handled some very nasty national emergencies pretty darned well.

I am not a Republican, btw.



And left wing sheeples believe anything that Pelosi, Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez sneeze.



Some don't. Some do. Most understand that the climate is changing, but that humans...though they may exacerbate it, are not solely responsible. Nor can killing off 9/10s of the human race and going back to hunter-gathering fix it. Nor do they believe, as a whole, that it's fair to blame the USA for it (and they do...) when in fact India and China produce more greenhouse gasses than America and the EU combined.

From Forbes magazine:
https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Frrapier%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F07%2FAsia-Pacific-CO2.jpg



Some do. Some belong to unions. I am a fan of unions which deal fairly with both workers and employers. I am NOT a fan of those (and I was forced to belong to one for years) which not only make membership mandatory for workers in specific areas (teacher's union) but gather dues and use them for political purposes that are directly opposed to the membership in general. I am opposed to unions which are politically biased...and unfortunately, most are.

Conservatives, as a rule, would agree with the above, I believe.


No. You have committed a bunch of fallacies here...most of which are included under 'generalization."

Yes, there are extreme right wingers who are global warming deniers, who bomb abortion clinics and want to make all public schools into Protestant religious schools.

On the other hand, I can point to liberals who are literal communist/socialists, who want the government to take the wealth from everybody and distribute it as they decide, who want to go the way of Greece and Venezuela, thinking that even though history has shown that their economic and political ideas simply don't work, that somehow THEY can make 'em go. I can point to liberals who want to ban all religion from the country...they believe that it is 'freedom FROM religion, not freedom OF" so that they have the right to impose their beliefs and practices upon everybody...even more than some militant religious group might. These are those who sue people for putting crosses on their lawns at Christmas, who want to remove the non-profit tax provisions from anything even remotely related to a religion, who believe that children should be taught in school that there IS no God, and who believe that only the 'appropriate' humans should be allowed to reproduce, so that the population of the earth can be cut to the point that hunter-gathering would sustain the remaining people. Of course, they get to determine who is 'appropriate."

I can point to them, but I don't think you would agree that their attitudes comprise the whole, or even the majority, of liberal thought, would you?

But that's what YOU are doing to the right, and that's why I said you illustrated my point, which was that you are very biased, to the point of being unwilling to even look at what the 'other side' might say. You are swallowing the kool-aide too, ecco. Just a different flavor, is all.


Please try to remember what we are discussing. You essentially accused me of getting my opinions about Right Wing Conservatives from the leftist liberal media. I have shown that your self-serving assertion is nothing more than a self-serving assertion. I have shown that I get and have developed my opinions about Right Wing Conservatives directly from the comments and actions of Right Wing Conservatives themselves.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
There are posters on this very forum who are Right Wing Conservatives who want abortion banned.

You say that like it's a bad thing, ecco. *I* want abortion made unthinkable. That has to come from within the culture, not imposed by law from without, but it's becoming obvious to me that something has to be done.

Something was done. The Supreme Court of the United States researched and debated and ruled that abortion should be allowed. Part of its determination was based on the ideas and practices of the past. Did you know SCOTUS took historical religious views, especially Christian views, into consideration?

However, you want to go further. You believe that your views and the views of other Rightwing Religious Conservatives should be imposed on everyone.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
RE: School prayer
Some do. Most don't...and while the liberals characterize "they want school prayer instituted,' they mean 'school prayer at the beginning of every single class in public as well as private school, prayer to the evangelical Protestant version of God," most conservatives simply want students to have the freedom to pray themselves, on campus

Are you really so, how to say this nicely, out of touch? On many high school campuses, on autumn nights, before the start of football games, there is a prayer, usually ending with "In Jesus Name, Amen".


...They resent very much being forbidden their own ability to pray when those same schools set aside rooms for the express purpose of allowing Muslim students to perform their Salat. That happened in the high school I went to, AMOF; two students were suspended for silently praying near the flag pole (they were not allowed to go into an empty classroom for this purpose, but Muslim students...and we have quite a few Muslims in the valley here...were given a room for the specific purpose of Salat. As far as I am aware, that classroom is still set aside for that purpose. I DO NOT OBJECT to the classroom for Salat.

I DO object to Christians being told that they can't have equal privileges to pray.

You should object to the classroom for Salat. Prayer has no business in a public school.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Nobody with any sense wants official school prayer, and frankly? I don't know many conservatives who want that either. As LDS, I certainly would prefer that my kids, if there is praying to be done, do it 'right,' and evangelicals (and most others) don't do it 'right." What we want...what all of us want...is the freedom that the First Amendment guarantees: that the state STAY OUT OF IT

Public schools, are used by children of many different religions. Taxpayers with many different beliefs pay for those public schools. Those public schools are not there to promote any religion.

Why do you personally think it's important to allow kids to pray in school? Don't you think they can go without indoctrination for 30 hours a week?




, and allow us to live our religions as we believe.
I don't believe any government agency has sent representatives to your home or your church preventing you from expressing your religious views or practising your religion as you see fit.

Getting back to our original conversation regarding where I get my information from. Some comes from these kinds of conversations with people like you.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Right Wing Conservatives made it impossible to pledge my allegiance to this country.
That's your problem...and your privilege. Freedom of religion also means that you can exercise your own beliefs, and if "under God" offends them, then you have the right not to say it.

As I said...Right Wing Conservatives made it impossible to pledge my allegiance to this country. You think it's OK if I just skip parts of the pledge. That's always the view of those in the majority/power.

BTW, The original pledge did not have 'under God' in it,

Who put it there? Oh, right, Right Wing Conservatives.

Is this just another idea I got from listening to the librul media as you asserted?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Right Wing Conservatives don't believe in AGW.
Some don't. Some do. Most understand that the climate is changing, but that humans...though they may exacerbate it, are not solely responsible.

I'm sure you can find some who don't. Is that going to be your fall back position now?

By and large, overwhelming, Right Wing Conservatives reject AGW.

When Trump denigrates the science behind AGW at his rallies, do the Right Wing Conservative sheeples boo him or do they lock step cheer him on? I know the answer. But I didn't get it from lirul talking heads, I've seen portions of his rallies.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
Please try to remember what we are discussing. You essentially accused me of getting my opinions about Right Wing Conservatives from the leftist liberal media. I have shown that your self-serving assertion is nothing more than a self-serving assertion. I have shown that I get and have developed my opinions about Right Wing Conservatives directly from the comments and actions of Right Wing Conservatives themselves.

no, actually, you can't.

Not when your list of talking points is straight out of the far left wing propaganda attack system, consists almost wholly of generalizations that don't apply to the majority of conservatives or conservative thought.

I too can make such a list...and can tell you that I got the talking points from liberals. In fact, I did make such a list. You will find it in the post to which yours was a reply.

I heard actual liberals (including duly elected Democrats) voice those opinions.

But I don't think that those opinions are shared by the Democratic 'base' as a whole. They are examples of extremists. I know this. You know this....but you are taking positions held by extremists and applying them to the whole.

That's fallacious at the very least. It's a fallacy of composition...you know, sort of the opposite of 'No True Scot?" You are claiming that because you have seen SOME conservatives express an opinion, that ALL conservatives express that opinion.

Don't do that. As tempting and as useful as doing that can be in political (and religious) debates, it isn't very useful.

.................and it does illustrate my point. You ARE using your biases to 'inform' your opinions.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
Something was done. The Supreme Court of the United States researched and debated and ruled that abortion should be allowed. Part of its determination was based on the ideas and practices of the past. Did you know SCOTUS took historical religious views, especially Christian views, into consideration?

However, you want to go further. You believe that your views and the views of other Rightwing Religious Conservatives should be imposed on everyone.

"Imposed?" Up until a year or so ago I was against legally banning abortion. I wanted only to teach people and talk women out of abortion and into more responsible use of birth control.

I have come to believe that such a course won't work. I have come to understand that if I truly do believe that real human lives are at stake here (and they are...that is inarguable), then simply attempting to educate people is not simply avoiding responsibility, it's adding to the problem. So, here is what I want:

I want a complete and thorough class on 'sex ed,' with that education beginning in jr. high (I would far prefer the parents to take care of this, as I did with my own kids, but obviously that's not happening). This class would take a factual and uncompromising view of sex and HOW TO PREVENT PREGNANCY. Not only that, I'd make that class mandatory, with a comprehensive test which must be passed, or the class must be taken again and again until the test IS passed. If, as I did, parents have taken care of the issue at home, I would allow students to challenge the class by taking the test instead. If they pass it, they don't need the class.

The information would include all the methods of birth control available, as well as clear eyed and medically accurate information on STD's and their prevention. There would be no judgment regarding when, where, how or why (or why not) to have sex. That IS the parent's job, period. When the topic of abortion comes up, the procedure should be explained clearly and accurately, so that girls will know precisely what happens at the various stages, when they make that decision. Both boys and girls should be told the legal consequences of pregnancy. The goal of the course would be to make sure they have the medical and legal facts required to make that decision.

Birth control should be available either free or at very low cost.

Once that system is in place, THEN I want abortion for convenience' sake banned. I'm all for choice. However, when a pregnancy is the result of consenting partners who go into intercourse knowing how to prevent pregnancy, and they simply choose not to do so, then they've made that choice. When a human life is conceived, it is no longer a simple matter of convenience for the woman as to whether she stays pregnant any more than it is only HER choice whether to shoot the guy in front of her because he's blocking her view of the concert stage. There is another human life involved here, and that life was invited by the choices the couple made before they had intercourse. It's not that human life's fault that they didn't do that right; it's the risk they took. Now that conceptus is alive, and growing, and unless it is killed, it will eventually become a human adult with all the rights and privileges society allows a human adult.

I believe that this conceptus, then, has one right; the right not to be killed simply because it exists.

I can't believe that "life" begins at conception and take any other stand, not morally, ethically or logically.
 

averageJOE

zombie
For the 11 years prior to the passing of the ACA, medical costs here literally doubled due to the average rate of medical inflation being slightly higher than 9%. At first, the ACA lowered that rate down to 5%, but then all hell broke loose in 2016 and the rates jumped into the double digits. Thus, even without the ACA, we'd still have this problem of inflation.

Absolutely false. It was designed to increase the numbers of people covered and to eliminate policies that were cheap but didn't offer adequate protections. Many millions have benefited from it.

But even when passed there was the knowledge that it could not bring costs down, so the hope was that this could be worked on. However, McConnell said it "best" when he said that the Republican's #1 priority was to make Obama a 1st term president only, thus the Pubs became the "Party of No" whereas nothing substantial could be done.

Since the Pubs still control the Senate, I agree that nothing substantial is likely to get done. Trump and the Pubs repeatedly promised to replace it, and all too many Americans were gullible enough to believe this guy who has long been known as being a "con-artist".
I hope know that everything you said is the very definition of incrementalism. Mere distractions to keep from noticing that regardless of what the ACA is doing for some average people, it STILL makes private insurance companies profit by design, AND leaves millions either uninsured or under-insured. I am 100% in favor of repealing and replacing the ACA...with Medicare for All. That would be an actual change. An establishment Democrat will NEVER fight for that change. They will only maintain the status quo.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
You say that like it's a bad thing, ecco. *I* want abortion made unthinkable. That has to come from within the culture, not imposed by law from without, but it's becoming obvious to me that something has to be done. Me, I'm all for 'choice.' However, as soon as another human life is involved in that choice, I figure that one has made the choice and now has to deal with the consequences of it.
That's assuming that the sex act that resulted in pregnancy was consensual and that the woman who is pregnant is in fact a woman and not a fourteen-year-old child herself. It's also assuming that the mother could safely survive the pregnancy. I don't want abortion made unthinkable, because as soon as something is "unthinkable," people stop thinking. Moral choices are always complicated, and while I am generally opposed to abortion, I believe there are always going to be instances in which it is the best "choice."
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
That's assuming that the sex act that resulted in pregnancy was consensual and that the woman who is pregnant is in fact a woman and not a fourteen-year-old child herself.

Of course. I think I mentioned that somewhere in there; it is all about choice.

It's also assuming that the mother could safely survive the pregnancy. I don't want abortion made unthinkable, because as soon as something is "unthinkable," people stop thinking. Moral choices are always complicated, and while I am generally opposed to abortion, I believe there are always going to be instances in which it is the best "choice."

I agree. I meant 'unthinkable' in that when abortion must be considered, it is considered to be a tragic necessity that causes grief; the result of rape or danger to the life of the mother. I still think that those choices need to be between the woman and her doctor, without the 'law' interfering with that choice, but there are so many women who think that abortion is simply a good 'oops' birth control method, or who have decided for reasons of convenience to kill that unborn human life because they can't be bothered...it is THAT which I want made to be 'unthinkable,' any more than the idea of eating your neighbor is considered to be a good idea.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Not when your list of talking points is straight out of the far left wing propaganda attack system,
Why don't you specify from which "far left wing propaganda attack system" you think I'm getting my talking points.

My opinions are based on observations. Did you not see...

annual-right-life-march-passes-450w-620193926.jpg


That's not "far left wing propaganda attack system" that's actual Right Wing Conservatives protesting against an existing law that doesn't agree with their religious views.

Here's another picture that helped inform me...
4430071537_ede565a931_z.jpg

That's not "far left wing propaganda attack system" that's actual Right Wing Conservatives Sheeples protesting against something that was nothing more than falsehoods intentionally spread by Right Wing Conservative Leaders.





consists almost wholly of generalizations that don't apply to the majority of conservatives or conservative thought.
When I hear Right Wing Conservatives protesting against the anti-abortionists I will agree with you. Until then When I see anti-abortionists protesting I will continue to believe that they represent the majority of Right Wing Conservatives. Do you have any articles by Right Wing Conservatives arguing against anti-abortionists? I doubt it.

You ARE using your biases to 'inform' your opinions.
I am using a lifetime of information to inform my opinions. That's not a bias:
bi·as
/ˈbīəs/


prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair.​
There's nothing unfair about using a lifetime of information to inform my opinions.
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
"Imposed?" Up until a year or so ago I was against legally banning abortion. I wanted only to teach people and talk women out of abortion and into more responsible use of birth control.

I have seen groups of Right Wing Religious Conservatives standing outside of abortion clinics yelling at women, trying to "teach people and talk women out of abortion". It's completely disgusting.

human lives are at stake here (and they are...that is inarguable)

If it was inarguable, there wouldn't be any discussion about. Here we are having a discussion regarding your religious opinion. My secular opinion differs.


I want a complete and thorough class on 'sex ed,' with that education beginning in jr. high (I would far prefer the parents to take care of this, as I did with my own kids, but obviously that's not happening).

What you need to do is try to inform the Right Wing Religious Conservatives that teaching sex ed in jr high is a good idea. They are the ones who oppose it. They believe in "Just Say No". It wasn't liberals who started:

Virginity pledges (or abstinence pledges or purity pledges) are commitments made by teenagers and young adults to refrain from sexual intercourse until marriage. They are most common in Catholic and Evangelical Christian denominations.[1]

History
The first virginity pledge program was True Love Waits, started in 1993 by the Southern Baptist Convention.​


Birth control should be available either free or at very low cost.

Again, you would have to buck the Right Wing Religious Conservatives who, hypocritically, do not want birth control pills and even information given to school-age kids because it "promotes loose morals and encourages sexual relations". Don't you know these things?

I can't believe that "life" begins at conception and take any other stand, not morally, ethically or logically.
You are entitled to your religiously inspired opinions. You are not entitled to force those opinions on others.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
...there are so many women who think that abortion is simply a good 'oops' birth control method, or who have decided for reasons of convenience to kill that unborn human life because they can't be bothered...it is THAT which I want made to be 'unthinkable'...
Fair enough. We're on the same page then.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
There's nothing unfair about using a lifetime of information to inform my opinions.

I know that most of the southerners who were happy with the Jim Crow laws were using a 'lifetime of experience' to inform their opinions, as well, ecco.

When one limits one's experiences to one side of an issue, it doesn't matter whether one is doing it for a month...or 70 years. It's still bias. The only thing that the extra time does is cement that unfair opinion.

I too have had a "lifetime of experience." My impressions are far different from yours. Care to explain that one, if a 'life time of experience' is all that is required?
 
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