Question for Atheists...

[idea]

"Refine evil'.

What an odd concept.

Whatever do you mean by it?

Some religious groups rationalize evil as being necessary to refine - refined in the fire. While it is true that some painful experiences bring wisdom and growth, I have now seen those whose trauma has left them mentally handicapped, unable to function.

The existence of evil that doesn't refine is the reason I do not believe a loving, all-powerful god exists.

 

[Audie]

Some religious groups rationalize evil as being necessary to refine - refined in the fire. While it is true that some painful experiences bring wisdom and growth, I have now seen those whose trauma has left them mentally handicapped, unable to function.

The existence of evil that doesn't refine is the reason I do not believe a loving, all-powerful god exists.

OK, another special "spiritual" definition.
It sure does not match the dictionary.

So- it's not the evil that is "refined" but the injured
person that is improved.

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger"
like " it's never too late" irs one of those
annoyingly trite, and, untrue truism.

I heard a number of well meaning but super unhelpful
aphorisms in the weeks after I was raped.

Two weeks of that in the hospital, and the ongoing
range of post trauma mental issues. Terrif.

There's no way it has been some spiritual or other
refinement for me. It did not make me stronger.

I suppose it did harden my shell some, I no longer get so
upset, for example, by yet another aphorism.

Or get outraged by someone chirping about how
It's all some gods plan and further along I will
understand why.

And no doubt be grateful. For the Love.

Well such people will believe as they wish, no matter what.

 

[idea]

OK, another special "spiritual" definition.
It sure does not match the dictionary.

So- it's not the evil that is "refined" but the injured
person that is improved.

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger"
like " it's never too late" irs one of those
annoyingly trite, and, untrue truism.

I heard a number of well meaning but super unhelpful
aphorisms in the weeks after I was raped.

Two weeks of that in the hospital, and the ongoing
range of post trauma mental issues. Terrif.

There's no way it has been some spiritual or other
refinement for me. It did not make me stronger.

I suppose it did harden my shell some, I no longer get so
upset, for example, by yet another aphorism.

Or get outraged by someone chirping about how
It's all some gods plan and further along I will
understand why.

And no doubt be grateful. For the Love.

Well such people will believe as they wish, no matter what.

Correct, many religious people fully embrace blaming victims - it's all God's will, they need to be cut down to be refined etc. Privilege is rationalized, as is suffering - really warped. Unfortunately, I used to be one of those people - cognitive dissonance is real, brainwashing is real, it takes personal experience to wake up. So sorry to hear what you went through.

 

[Bird123]

No, they are your claims. You have given no evidence to show they are facts.

And I would say that you seek to confirm your belief that there is a God.

And I would say the same about my answers.

And I would disagree. Those that think critically come to very different conclusions (from you and from each other, I might add).

Evidence.

I could say the same about you. From my perspective, you are tied to a false belief in a deity. You need to open your mind to other possibilities.

And I have taken a journey and not found this to be true. I have been thinking and asking questions for the last 50 years or so. At one time I believed as you do now. But I realized that I was just playing games with myself. That is why I doubt your claims.

I don't discount the possibility. But I don't find the current evidence to be convincing, or even all that relevant. So, you make claims that what you are 'facts', but I don't see it that way. What I see is you starting with a position and being subject to confirmation bias while refusing to consider alternative possibilities.

A belief in a God *is* a religious belief. So, yes, you have religious beliefs since you think a God exists.

Again, this is why some see you as arroagant: you claim to have 'truth', but provide no evidence. You only give vague hand-waving positions and say others have to search. But when we do search, we don't find what you claim.

Understood. Many disagree.

OK, I make a statement. You do not believe my statement. Does that really mean I do not have the facts?

I do not serve up beliefs like religion. I point to where you can Discover the truth for yourself. You do not want to go. You want me to serve up beliefs for you to accept or reject. Is it really supposed to bother me you do not seek God? Of course not because your believing is not the goal. I am merely copying God. God places Truth in the world , then allows people to choose for themselves. Sound like what you have been getting from me?

I do not believe in God. I know God exists. If God does not exist, then you do not exist. Interaction is the evidence for both. I know you exist. I know God exists. I can not go back to Beliefs. Beliefs are the beginning not the end of a journey.

So you have been on a journey for 50 years asking questions. Have you come up with any answers? Did you put any pieces together? Does any of it add up for you? Did you incorporate Ebb and Flow into your investigation? Can you see how anything fits together at all? Did you realize that a Being capable of creating universes has to be very smart? Did you use Advanced Thinking and reasoning? Did you look beyond the surface and the hurt to see what is? Did you hunger for the Real Truth after finding so much said about God doesn't add up and can't be true?

Do you see a pattern? One who seeks will have a million questions,. The questions never end. One does not stop when the journey gets hard. There is so much to Discover that I can not see the end to the journey. Why would anyone give up that really needed to know the truth?

Perhaps, you should question yourself first to Discover what is it you really seek?

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

So you claim. But you might consider that I have also 'been there' and realized that it was all illusions and falsehoods.

You are assuming I have never had the types of experiences you claim. I have. And I realized that they were illusory and false.

Do you think this world is a mess? Why would a Being of High Intelligence, able to create universes create a mess. Back up and look at the easy parts. Are the physics a mess? Are the balances that make it all work a mess? Is evolution a mess? Are fractals a mess? Is quantum entanglement a mess? Is there really no purpose to anything? What have you overlooked over the years?

The people factor has many more variables. The more variables and more complex things are the harder it is to acquire Understanding.

Are you using advanced thinking and reason on multiple levels with multiple views. Are you doing any stretching or is it all about having it made and not hurting.

When did you reach the point and stopped questioning? Have you really been there?

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

Again, this is why you come across as arrogant. You think you have the truth and that others are just missing something obvious. But many of us have traveled the same or a similar path, had similar experiences, and realized they were false.

Please consider the possibility that you might be wrong. Think outside the box you have made for yourself. Or, don't. Your choice. There is no reason you *need* to actually search for the truth by being skeptical of claims without evidence.

People may see me as arrogant because what I say does not agree with their beliefs. That is perfectly ok. Does it really matter what people think? I am walking toward High Intelligence. Why? That is where the knowledge is taking me. My journey has not ended. There is always more to Discover.

You want answers before you Discover them. Does it all really work that way? One must be brave enough to venture into undiscovered country.

You are right. People can wander. The base at which one should not fall below is that everything about God, this world and universe will add up perfectly. This includes the people factor. If it doesn't, you are wandering.

You might look around and see a mess. I look around and see a Masterpiece. I will know you are getting there when you see a Masterpiece. I do realize it is not easy. On the other hand, I think everyone can Discover something.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

Yes. An inability to support one's claims tells others that the odds are that you are wrong. And yes, your obvious lack of understanding is probably why you cannot support your claims. If you would only apply your own rather ignorant spiel to yourself you might realize that you have only made yourself look silly.?


If you really believe that you are right then please try to explain why you are right. Don't just post inane nonsense.

You are wanting the answers first. Does it really work that way? Answers do not come before the Discovery.

I copy God. God places truth in the world then allows everyone free choice. Is this not what you have been getting from me?

If you choose to think I am silly, that is your free choice. You have my blessing. On the other hand, saying I am silly doesn't make it so. There is method to what I am pointing.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

I am writing my assessments given what you claim. You hold religious views that you deny are relgious, for some reason. Denying that your belief in God isn't religious is another level of curiosity of your position.

There are no gods known to exist. That you claim a God exists is a typical religious position, and none who claim this have ever been able to demonstrate a God actually exists outside of human imagination. You are not different. You don't even try to argue for your idea of God existing, you just claim it does.

You are emphatic that we critical thinkers accept your "discovery" and other beliefs. I wonder if your way of thinking lacks the self-awareness of doing this. Me and others have indicated this, yet you ignore what we say.

This is ironic. My approach on these boards is to understand what is factually true, or at least likely true, and critical thinkers make conclusions based on factual evidence. You are often vague in your claims, but what you do post is cookies cutter religious belief, that you seek truth, but then reveal you believe that God exists despite not showing any evidence. Why would any thinker assume, or believe, or pretend to know, that a God exists when there is no evidence or explanation offered?

False. Your answers and beliefs are valid to YOU, and other believers. They aren't valid to critical thinkers who require evidence and critical analysis of the evidence to form valid conclusions. In logic and debate claims made by folks are considered UNTRUE by default, and the claimant has a burden of proof to demonstrate what they claim is true in reality, and that comes with evidence and a cherent explanation. You offer none of this.

You want us to accept your claims at face value, and you are too lazy defend what you claim. You then make false accusations about me because you assume you are correct, and therefore I must be wrong by contrast. But you don't show how your beliefs are true.

OK, prove a God exists, and that it has parts, half of which is intellectual. My prediction is that you have no evidence for this claim. Yet you expect me to take your word for it. Why?

Who told you a God exists, and why did you believe them? What makes you think God is a real thing outside of you imagine?

OK, take your time and present evidence that all these statements are true. That means providing evidence and a coherent explanation. You insist I (and others) aren't understanding, but you aren't doing a good job at explaining. These are your beliefs, yet you are terrible at being comprehensible, and then blame me. Is it possible you just believe in some religious ideas and don't know why? Could it be you that doesn't understand reasoning and evidence and how to come to valid conclusions? Don't be closed minded, is it possible the problem is you and your thinking?

What is it that a mortal interacts with that you consider a God? How does a mortal know that they are interacting a real God and not imagining it? Use facts.

As an open minded person God (if any siuch beings exists) has an open invitation to make contact. Thus far in my life, not even a whisper. Now you might be tempted to accuse me of not listening (how would you know, you wouldn't, but you seem eager to accuse non-believers of things that you can't know are true), but that would suggest God is so weak that he can't get the attention of a mortal. So don't blame mortals for not hearing a God that by all accounts is absent, or non-existent.

More details about God that you didn't explain is true in reality, so I throw this out until you provide more than your belief and claims. Can you do it? I don't believe you can, so that's on you.

More of your arrogance. Why do you think you are so special, especially when you can't provide any evidence that you are correct? Why be critical of thinkers who follow the rules of analysis so they don't end up believing in false ideas?

Little ole me, Special???? I am a Child of God just as you are. I am you!!! There are things I know that you do not. There are things you know that I do not. Is it really that hard? Let's not make it something that it's not.

It's simple. You underestimate God. You have no knowledge of what is really going on. You have no point of reference. You see what you want to see. Your view is narrow. A visit from God would intimidate your choices from that point on. Could you peddle fast enough to keep up? Wouldn't you just end up being confused by the experience?

Is there a reason for a visit? For me, God's visit was to confirm much of what I Discovered. Up until that moment, all I had were beliefs and the knowledge of how everything added up so well.

Have you talked to a ant lately? We are ants. God is High Intelligence working on multiple levels with multiple views. Our capabilities are very limited. Worry not because you already know God. In time, you will be with God again.

I have pointed the direction I took in order to acquire Understanding. I realize this is no easy journey. I simply placed the Real Truth in the world because I have Discovered it.

There are no demands. There are no rules. Choose freely. I'm Happy!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

I used to believe evil was necessary to refine. I've since witnessed/experienced things that absolutely do not refine.

"It's just the laws of nature." Is a less painful mindset for me now.

It has never been about judging, good or evil.

You can look at a person and see a physical body. After Discovering more, you see the well of knowledge runs very deep when you hit the DNA level. There is always more to Discover.

You are right. Look around and Discover what Is. So much is said about God that simply isn't true. The True knowledge of God surrounds us all.

You already know God whether you know you know or not. When you bump into God again, you are going to realize you really like God. God doesn't value so many of the petty things mankind holds so dear. There will be no baggage or garbage. There is only Unconditional Love. You really have no worries at all.

That's what I see, It's very clear!!

 

[F1fan]

OK, I make a statement. You do not believe my statement. Does that really mean I do not have the facts?

If you claimed you ate a ham sandwich for lunch we might take your word for it. These sandwiches exist and are eaten for lunch. But if you claimed you ate a ham sandwich and it gave you the power to fly, well, that isn't something plausible, so we won't take your word for it. Your claims are religious (whether you like it or not) and they aren't plausible or factual, so we can't take your word for it. That's why we need evidence, and you offer none.

I do not serve up beliefs like religion.

Yes you do. It isn't typical eligious talk, but it's religious. You refer to God existing as if we all know it, and that is religious.

I point to where you can Discover the truth for yourself.

Discover is a verb, why do you capitalize it?

You do not want to go. You want me to serve up beliefs for you to accept or reject. Is it really supposed to bother me you do not seek God? Of course not because your believing is not the goal. I am merely copying God. God places Truth in the world , then allows people to choose for themselves. Sound like what you have been getting from me?

Not only do you not offer any specifics, but you assume we critical thinkers haven't had our own journies and experiences. Your attitude is disrespectful. You have a negative attitude about critical thought, as your posts reveal.

I do not believe in God. I know God exists. If God does not exist, then you do not exist. Interaction is the evidence for both. I know you exist. I know God exists. I can not go back to Beliefs. Beliefs are the beginning not the end of a journey.

Yet you can't demonstrate that you are correct. So we have no alternative but to reject what you claim. Want to be taken seriously? Show respect and provide evidence.

 

[Polymath257]

ou are right. People can wander. The base at which one should not fall below is that everything about God, this world and universe will add up perfectly. This includes the people factor. If it doesn't, you are wandering.

See? You admit you have an assumption that you will not 'fall below'. In actuality, I think, it is one you cannot rise above.

 

[YoursTrue]

If you claimed you ate a ham sandwich for lunch we might take your word for it. These sandwiches exist and are eaten for lunch. But if you claimed you ate a ham sandwich and it gave you the power to fly, well, that isn't something plausible, so we won't take your word for it. Your claims are religious (whether you like it or not) and they aren't plausible or factual, so we can't take your word for it. That's why we need evidence, and you offer none.

Yes you do. It isn't typical eligious talk, but it's religious. You refer to God existing as if we all know it, and that is religious.

Discover is a verb, why do you capitalize it?

Not only do you not offer any specifics, but you assume we critical thinkers haven't had our own journies and experiences. Your attitude is disrespectful. You have a negative attitude about critical thought, as your posts reveal.

Yet you can't demonstrate that you are correct. So we have no alternative but to reject what you claim. Want to be taken seriously? Show respect and provide evidence.

The apostle Paul believed in God before he became a Christian. That's what I get from reading about him in the Bible.

 

[YoursTrue]

See? You admit you have an assumption that you will not 'fall below'. In actuality, I think, it is one you cannot rise above.

I am surely not aware of @Bird123 's beliefs about God and religion in particular, but I know mankind is not perfect, although I remember someone a while back who wanted to argue with me that we all are perfect. After a while of trying to reason, you know like people with deformities, and brain damage, he kept insisting, and I kind of shrugged my shoulders and went on with my work at the time.

 

[F1fan]

The apostle Paul believed in God before he became a Christian. That's what I get from reading about him in the Bible.

Not a reputable source to assume accurate. Besides, some guy in a primitive society picking up some other religion is not exactly impressive. Heck people do it all the time today. I'm not sure why you think this means anything.

 

[idea]

You really have no worries at all.

Just the laws of nature. No hypocritical two-faced imagined child molesting God and his sick priests - just the unconscious laws of nature.

The kids who are athiests are doing better now.

The kids who are still trapped in that hell belief of God- they are in therapy, mentally ill, eating disorders, suicide attempts, cutting themselves - I do worry about them, and will save from their evil beliefs in that imagined nightmare of a god.

 

[F1fan]

Little ole me, Special???? I am a Child of God just as you are. I am you!!! There are things I know that you do not. There are things you know that I do not. Is it really that hard? Let's not make it something that it's not.

None of this is factual.

It's simple. You underestimate God. You have no knowledge of what is really going on. You have no point of reference. You see what you want to see. Your view is narrow. A visit from God would intimidate your choices from that point on. Could you peddle fast enough to keep up? Wouldn't you just end up being confused by the experience?

None of this is factual, either.

Is there a reason for a visit? For me, God's visit was to confirm much of what I Discovered. Up until that moment, all I had were beliefs and the knowledge of how everything added up so well.

You are very close to violating the rules, as people are supposed to present arguments, not make unverifiable claims of truth.

Have you talked to a ant lately? We are ants. God is High Intelligence working on multiple levels with multiple views. Our capabilities are very limited. Worry not because you already know God. In time, you will be with God again.

We aren't ants, there are no Gods known to exist.

I have pointed the direction I took in order to acquire Understanding. I realize this is no easy journey. I simply placed the Real Truth in the world because I have Discovered it.

None of us see you pointing. You are proselytizing.

There are no demands. There are no rules. Choose freely. I'm Happy!!

This is incoherent.

 

[Bird123]

If you claimed you ate a ham sandwich for lunch we might take your word for it. These sandwiches exist and are eaten for lunch. But if you claimed you ate a ham sandwich and it gave you the power to fly, well, that isn't something plausible, so we won't take your word for it. Your claims are religious (whether you like it or not) and they aren't plausible or factual, so we can't take your word for it. That's why we need evidence, and you offer none.

Yes you do. It isn't typical eligious talk, but it's religious. You refer to God existing as if we all know it, and that is religious.

Discover is a verb, why do you capitalize it?

Not only do you not offer any specifics, but you assume we critical thinkers haven't had our own journies and experiences. Your attitude is disrespectful. You have a negative attitude about critical thought, as your posts reveal.

Yet you can't demonstrate that you are correct. So we have no alternative but to reject what you claim. Want to be taken seriously? Show respect and provide evidence.

It's time to get in the Real World. Flying ham sandwiches????Do you really think everything in the world fits within your belief system? Get Real!!

Ok, so you have made your own journey and found nothing, what are you doing wrong? What are you missing? Is your view too narrow? Do you want God not to exist so badly that you are ignoring things? Do you really not want to take the journey? Is advanced thinking hard to come by? Do you choose to see no purpose because it tasks you to investigate further? Maybe, you just give up too easily. Maybe, the journey will be easier when you Discover others have made it. Perhaps, there is something you missed in the first journey.

Negative attitude??? I have no attitude at all. I point the way. It's about what is. I find it curious that when people do not hear what they want to hear the names start coming: Rude, Arrogant and even the Devil. Truth will not always be an agreeable thing.

Those boxes of beliefs might be comfortable but one does not move forward within them. There is always more to Discover, leading one Learning, Growing, and ever Moving Forward. You might place labels and names on things like Critical, however it serves no purpose except to feed the Ego and perhaps to limit one's view. True Thinkers never limit themselves from all possibilities. Further, they Question constantly rather than merely accept Beliefs.

I placed Real Truth in the World. Feel free to accept or reject any Belief you have. Whether I am taken seriously is once again one's free choice. As for evidence, I have pointed the direction by which one can Discover that evidence for themselves. Of course, One must Seek that evidence if one ever expects to find it.

An action of God: God doesn't just give knowledge out. One must struggle to acquire knowledge because Wisdom is acquired on the journey to Discover that knowledge. I try to copy God the best I can because it is High Intelligence in so many ways.

Maybe, Religion has corrupted your thinking into believing all knowledge is served up on a plate to be accepted or rejected. It doesn't work that way !! In time, you will Discover this for yourself.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

See? You admit you have an assumption that you will not 'fall below'. In actuality, I think, it is one you cannot rise above.

You ignore the meaning and the wisdom of what I said. This statement was about wandering along a journey. It has nothing to do with assuming at all.

We all have the power to Choose what we deem important.
One can choose to try and find any and all reasons not to change OR one can choose to consider all the possibilities.

There was this small town. A new person moved to that town. This new person was quiet and kept to himself. Since the new person wasn't that friendly of close to others, the people in the town started bad talking the new guy as being strange. The new guy did things differently. The people in the town each took turns saying what they thought was strange. These people were critical is so many ways because it wasn't their way. Finally, it came to one last old man from the town. This old man said: "Wait a minute everyone!! Look closely for there is Method to the stranger's Madness!!"

What is isn't about what one wants to see. In time, this is a lesson we all will Learn!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Not a reputable source to assume accurate. Besides, some guy in a primitive society picking up some other religion is not exactly impressive. Heck people do it all the time today. I'm not sure why you think this means anything.

Assuming Paul (formerly known as Saul) existed during biblical times, he was probably familiar with Greek mythology and its various gods and goddesses, which means that he may have copied and adapted some of these myths and attributed them to the stories about Jesus (also assuming that he existed) to make him appear to be god-like or even the God of the Bible, meaning he is both fully God and fully human (referring to the hypostatic union doctrine).

 

[Bird123]

Just the laws of nature. No hypocritical two-faced imagined child molesting God and his sick priests - just the unconscious laws of nature.

The kids who are athiests are doing better now.

The kids who are still trapped in that hell belief of God- they are in therapy, mentally ill, eating disorders, suicide attempts, cutting themselves - I do worry about them, and will save from their evil beliefs in that imagined nightmare of a god.

Isn't one supposed to advance beyond the sum of all their teachings? Do not shelter the kids from the so called evils of the world. Teach them how to deal with it.

Religion is mankind's attempt to understand God. People fill the gaps of their knowledge with Beliefs that are not always right. Religion reflects mankind more than anything else. I have found no religion that really understands God at all.

Like mankind, religions value so many petty things that mankind holds so dear. Clearly, you can see some of the results of this. On the other hand, it's a mixed bag. There are some people in religions that are wise enough to focus on the Love parts.

I think it should be about What actually is rather than running to the opposite extreme just to escape. On the other hand, in a time-based causal universe, those Free Choices, in time, will lead one where one wants and needs to be.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!