Question for Christians from a Godless Atheist

[johnhanks]

God didn't ask it of him.

I refer you back to your original exculpation: God didn't even let him go through with it for goodness sake. God may not have asked for the girl to be burned, but you'd think he might have let Jephthah know if he disapproved.

And the bible warns against vows to God. He shouldn't have done it.

OK, he shouldn't have done it. And for that our loving god lets him put his daughter to a horrible death?

Now what I don't get is why his daughter seemed more upset about her virginity than dying, but I digress.

Interesting digression, though. Perhaps because the whole (probably fictional) story was written by a man for a male readership in a highly patriarchal society which put huge value on daughters' virginity?

 

[Thana]

I refer you back to your original exculpation: God didn't even let him go through with it for goodness sake. God may not have asked for the girl to be burned, but you'd think he might have let Jephthah know if he disapproved.
OK, he shouldn't have done it. And for that our loving god lets him put his daughter to a horrible death?

God lets people do terrible things every day. If you're going to blame God for letting him kill his daughter then you might as well blame God for 9/11 while you're at it.

Everyone in the bible did bad things, made mistakes and peeved off God. And He let them do it, because it's how they learned. It's how they grew. It's the same for us.

Interesting digression, though. Perhaps because the whole (probably fictional) story was written by a man for a male readership in a highly patriarchal society which put huge value on daughters' virginity?

Or maybe she just really wanted to have sex.

 

[johnhanks]

... If you're going to blame God for letting him kill his daughter ..

I'm not going to blame an imaginary being for anything; I'd rather blame the people for whom "I did it for god" excuses any atrocity (including 9/11). Then again, excusing whatever behaviour suits your purposes is one of the things religion is for...

... And He let them do it, because it's how they learned.

Didn't do a lot for Jephthah's daughter's education, did it? Face it, this is an awful story, written down and believed by sadly benighted people who really thought their god liked having young girls burned for him.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, you've got the gist of it. Except I don't really care for being more human, because humans are terrible creatures.

And the point isn't killing your child, the point is whether or not you are willing to give up everything you have for God. Everything including your sense of morality, your ideals, your relationships and even your self. Absolutely everything.
Clearly you don't have anything worth that kind of sacrifice so you can't understand.

Unless you're considering people as posessions, your son is not part of "everything you have".

Just because somethings matters to us doesn't mean it's ours to give away.

You're much too hung up on the killing child part. God didn't even let him go through with it for goodness sake.

The whole point of the test was to demonstrate Abraham's willingness to commit atrocities for God. Even if God didn't want Abraham to kill his son right there and then, the message was that God wants and rewards followers who are willing to kill their sons (or do other horrible acts, presumably).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

God lets people do terrible things every day. If you're going to blame God for letting him kill his daughter then you might as well blame God for 9/11 while you're at it.

Yes, we should.

If God is real, then he's heard every cry for help from every victim in human history, but just watched and did nothing.

I have no problem condemning a human being who watches a murder and doesn't intervene to help at zero personal risk. I see no reason to judge God less harshly than I would a human being in this regard.

 

[Thana]

I'm not going to blame an imaginary being for anything; I'd rather blame the people for whom "I did it for god" excuses any atrocity (including 9/11). Then again, excusing whatever behaviour suits your purposes is one of the things religion is for...

Ah, so you're only willing to entertain the hypothetical until you have nothing more to rebut with. Typical.

Didn't do a lot for Jephthah's daughter's education, did it? Face it, this is an awful story, written down and believed by sadly benighted people who really thought their god liked having young girls burned for him.

Aye, there's the rub. My faith and your lack of.
His daughter probably didn't need any more education, she was probably more faithful than her father and had no need of her life anymore. Or maybe God gave her life for one specific purpose, to die at her fathers hand to teach him and therefore the rest of us the consequences of vows made in haste. It really makes no difference either way.

Technically, God kills us all. So your focus on specific cases is rather... petty.

 

[Thana]

Unless you're considering people as posessions, your son is not part of "everything you have".

Just because somethings matters to us doesn't mean it's ours to give away.

Your love for your son is yours though. Most importantly, if that love is valued higher than your love for God. So no, you don't possess your son. But you do possess your feelings toward him.
And it's God's right to ask you to give up the things He gave you.

The whole point of the test was to demonstrate Abraham's willingness to commit atrocities for God. Even if God didn't want Abraham to kill his son right there and then, the message was that God wants and rewards followers who are willing to kill their sons (or do other horrible acts, presumably).

No, that's not the point.
That's just your very biased interpretation.

 

[GodlessHeathen]

Yes, you've got the gist of it. Except I don't really care for being more human, because humans are terrible creatures.

And the point isn't killing your child, the point is whether or not you are willing to give up everything you have for God. Everything including your sense of morality, your ideals, your relationships and even your self. Absolutely everything.
Clearly you don't have anything worth that kind of sacrifice so you can't understand.

You're much too hung up on the killing child part. God didn't even let him go through with it for goodness sake.

You say "God didn't even let him go through with it" as if it's a good thing. You yourself said that you would probably find it difficult, if not impossible, to carry such an act on your own child. Abraham is a human just like you. Imagine the anguish he must have suffered in thinking he had to kill his own child. Imagine the fear in innocent Isaac's heart as he was tied up and was seconds away from his own loved and trusted father knifing and burning him. The fact that God stopped it at the last second doesn't make it okay.

You're right. I don't understand what could possess anyone to inflict death upon someone else (their own child, no less) for their God. If I was in Abraham's position, I would gladly spend an eternity in Hell than murder my child in cold blood to appease a God. But clearly you and I are very different people. At the very least, even if I couldn't disagree with you more strongly, thanks for at least answering the questions directly and honestly. It's appreciated.

 

[Thana]

You say "God didn't even let him go through with it" as if it's a good thing. You yourself said that you would probably find it difficult, if not impossible, to carry such an act on your own child. Abraham is a human just like you. Imagine the anguish he must have suffered in thinking he had to kill his own child. Imagine the fear in innocent Isaac's heart as he was tied up and was seconds away from his own loved and trusted father knifing and burning him. The fact that God stopped it at the last second doesn't make it okay.

You're right. I don't understand what could possess anyone to inflict death upon someone else (their own child, no less) for their God. If I was in Abraham's position, I would gladly spend an eternity in Hell than murder my child in cold blood to appease a God. But clearly you and I are very different people. At the very least, even if I couldn't disagree with you more strongly, thanks for at least answering the questions directly and honestly. It's appreciated.

No worries. I hate it when people beat around the bush anyway. Say what you mean, mean what you say.

And I'm sure you would choose your morality over God. That's why you're an Atheist, no? I'm pretty sure you'd choose a glass of lemonade over God.

 

[GodlessHeathen]

No worries. I hate it when people beat around the bush anyway. Say what you mean, mean what you say.

And I'm sure you would choose your morality over God. That's why you're an Atheist, no? I'm pretty sure you'd choose a glass of lemonade over God.

It would certainly be more refreshing.

 

[Thana]

It would certainly be more refreshing.

Nice, heh.

Well.. Enjoy your lemonade

 

[Kartari]

Hi Godless,

Your morality is not constant either. As you've clearly demonstrated by your honest replies (for which I am most thankful for you directly answering the question and not dancing around it), whatever you believe God says to be moral, is moral. If God says today that eating cake is moral and tomorrow it is immoral, you would be compelled to believe that without question. God can and does clearly change His mind. After all, He commands Abraham to kill his son, but whispers to Moses "Thou shalt not kill". Then commands the Israelites to slaughter a few of their neighbours. He's hot and He's cold, He's yes and He's no. Or something like that. You know...Katy Perry.

If God were to pop down from the clouds and command you to rape a child, in your mind, that would be moral. If God were to pop down from the clouds and command you to commit mass genocide, in your mind, that would be the right thing to do. Like Abraham, you wouldn't pause for a minute to consider the harm you are causing to others (even to those you personally know and love) because you would blinded by the confusing and maniacal demands of your God. Morality isn't nearly as wishy-washy as you make it out to be. There is never a circumstance where ordering a father to kill his son for the reason of "prove your loyalty to me" is moral or "the right thing to do" and I guarantee you they'll not only still think that in 100 years, but even in 1000 years should humans survive it.

Why on Earth you would choose to base your morality unquestioningly on such an objectionable figure is beyond me.

Not to intrude too much into this poll for Christians, but I do feel the strong need to respond to this post.

Indeed, the perception that obedience to a perceived ultimate authority figure in God as being the paramount virtue in life is very troubling. When someone perceives that murdering their own child is the right thing to do when it's believed to have been commanded by a "God" (however that is imagined by the believer), even a person of average empathy and reason must be taken aback with horror and fear at what can perhaps best be described as sociopathy. We see the same basic framework in play among Islamist extremists, who commit mass murder because they believe Allah has commanded it.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No. I don't think God even literally asked Abraham to do that, if Abraham was even an actual historical person in the first place.

 

[johnhanks]

Ah, so you're only willing to entertain the hypothetical until you have nothing more to rebut with. Typical.

So, for how long would you prefer I "entertain the hypothetical"? Clearly, as an atheist I'm bound to evaluate the Abraham/Isaac and Jephthah stories in the light of what they tells us about the people who wrote and believed them, not what they tell us about a non-existent sky-god.

Technically, God kills us all. So your focus on specific cases is rather... petty.

Really? What else is there, apart from specific cases?

On edit: for some reason, the entire middle section of this post (though present in the edit window) won't appear in the actual post. I'll try tacking it on the end:

Aye, there's the rub. My faith and your lack of.

Of course. Wasn't that obvious from the start of this exchange?

His daughter probably didn't need any more education, she was probably more faithful than her father and had no need of her life anymore. Or maybe God gave her life for one specific purpose, to die at her fathers hand to teach him and therefore the rest of us the consequences of vows made in haste.

So you really are prepared to contemplate a deity that has innocent people killed to make a point. She "had no need of her life" any more? The wailing about her virginity that you referred to suggests otherwise.

 

[Thana]

So you really are prepared to contemplate a deity that has innocent people killed to make a point. She "had no need of her life" any more? The wailing about her virginity that you referred to suggests otherwise.

Innocent people? That's amusing.
And yes I'm totally fine with whatever God decides for all our lives, whether it's to live and die a farmer or a politician or just to make a really good point. Life is all you have, so you consider it more valuable than it actually is.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, that's not the point.
That's just your very biased interpretation.

What's your interpretation?

 

[JustWondering]

I think the main question is: how do we know it is really God asking?

For instance, I am sure Satan could be pretty good at impersonating God, being the Ultimate deceiver, considering also that God does not have an Id or some easy ways to be identified.

Or mentally ill.

 

[Muffled]

Wow. It is hard to believe it took you this long to find someone interesting.

 

[Muffled]

I think the main question is: how do we know it is really God asking?

For instance, I am sure Satan could be pretty good at impersonating God, being the Ultimate deceiver, considering also that God does not have an Id or some easy ways to be identified.

Ciao

- viole

I believe it takes faith to believe God would not allow the deceiver to do the masquerade and yes God does have an ID.

 

[viole]

I believe it takes faith to believe God would not allow the deceiver to do the masquerade and yes God does have an ID.

How is that relevant? Masquerades are masquerades, independently from being approved by God or not.

The question is: how do you know you are not having a personal relationship with a phony?

Ciao

- viole