Question for Christians

[comradesoul]

Why do Christians consider the Old Testament as scripture relating to them? I don't get it . There is so much in there that is clearly not relevant to the teaching of Christ like warring against other cultures, killing everyone and taking their land.

You won't find Jesus Christ instructing His disciples to engage in such barbaric conduct. Reminds me more of extremist Islam than Christianity.

 

[Ba'al]

Reminds me more of extremist Islam than Christianity.

The Quran does not teach of such violence as in the Old Testament.

 

[Harshtotem]

the old testament is that which many subverted as they try even now to subvert he new this wll not happen

 

[John D]

The OT have more functions than being a storybook or a history journal. It is a mirror to modernman's soul - If you take the time to look.
You don't have to, though. As in everything - the choice is yours.

 

[comradesoul]

The OT have more functions than being a storybook or a history journal. It is a mirror to modernman's soul - If you take the time to look.
You don't have to, though. As in everything - the choice is yours.

Can you give an example of whatyou mean John?

 

[rusra02]

Why do Christians consider the Old Testament as scripture relating to them? I don't get it . There is so much in there that is clearly not relevant to the teaching of Christ like warring against other cultures, killing everyone and taking their land.

You won't find Jesus Christ instructing His disciples to engage in such barbaric conduct. Reminds me more of extremist Islam than Christianity.

Jesus believed and taught from the Hebrew scriptures (wrongly called OT) throughout his life. He referred his hearers to these scriptures as his authority.
He frequently introduced an important point by saying: “It is written.” (Matt. 4:4; 21:13) In his recorded words, he quoted directly from or referred indirectly to over half of the books of the Hebrew Scriptures.
There are no teachings in the Hebrew Scriptures inconsistent with Christ's teachings.
The Law and prophets pointed to the Christ and Jesus fulfilled the Law.
The wars God's people fought at his command against his enemies were to remove a people who practiced child sacrifice and other detestable practices. These people were destroyed for their evil conduct. Those few who accepted true worship, such as Rahab and the Gibeonites, had their lives spared.
The Christian scriptures speak of a far greater destruction than what happened to the Canaanites in the Hebrew scriptures. And who will take the lead in this? Jesus Christ (Matthew 25:31-46) He will end the lives of all who oppose God and God's kingdom.
Just as God's war against the idol-worshipping Canaanites was righteous, the war of Armegedon will remove all wicked ones, and is also a righteous war.

 

[chuck010342]

because Jesus often quoted scripture

 

[comradesoul]

Sure sounds like what is coming from the mouths of the Islamofacists today. Do you as a Christian believe you have a right to kill the idol worshipers around you or in some other land? I doubt it. Stoning women for adultry was a law also but Jesus wanted no part of it.

Now as someone admittedly not well read in the OT or NT I sure am in no position to debate all these points but even as a casual reader I can sure see a big difference between the gospels and the OT." Love thy neighbor"," Do good to those that despitefully use you" etc.

 

[Ba'al]

The wars God's people fought at his command against his enemies were to remove a people who practiced child sacrifice and other detestable practices. These people were destroyed for their evil conduct.

There is little evidence the Canaanites actually practiced child sacrifice. Archeology shows the Canaanite culture was almost indistinguishable from that of the Israelites. Mark Smith in "The Early History of God: Yahweh and Other Deities of Ancient Israel" states "Despite the long regnant model that the Canaanites and Israelites were people of fundamentally different culture, archaeological data now casts doubt on this view. The material culture of the region exhibits numerous common points between Israelites and Canaanites in the Iron I period (ca. 1200–1000 BC). The record would suggest that the Israelite culture largely overlapped with and derived from Canaanite culture. "

If you want to talk about the killing of children and other genocide though, look no further than:

Deuteronomy (2:34) "So we captured all his cities at that time and utterly destroyed the men, women and children of every city. We left no survivor."

Deuteronomy (7:2) "and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy."

Joshua (6:21) "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and donkey, with the edge of the sword."

 

[2nd mouse]

Why do Christians consider the Old Testament as scripture relating to them? I don't get it . There is so much in there that is clearly not relevant to the teaching of Christ like warring against other cultures, killing everyone and taking their land.

You won't find Jesus Christ instructing His disciples to engage in such barbaric conduct. Reminds me more of extremist Islam than Christianity.

Hello everyone, this is my first post and first time using a web forum.

I think in order to even begin to understand the bible rightly, old testament included, you have to understand a couple critical truths. The First and foremost I think is that after Adam screwed things up for the world, the world at that moment became the enemy of God. There were a very few exceptions of course. When Abram came along God found someone He could covenant with. God did not have covenant with all people only those that came through the line of Isaac. Those that weren't partnered in covenant with Him remained as they were, enemies. The context of the entire old testament I think is based on a loving God pursuing after an obstinate people whom He had covenant with. I believe all that carnage you refer to is God fighting against enemies of His beloved covenant people for one reason or another.
All the time past up until Jesus came God's covenant people resisted Him. As a group they even resisted Jesus, with some exceptions of coarse, and still do today. But God through Jesus Christ decided to offer the covenant life He had been trying offer His chosen people for 4000 years to all who would receive it in an attempt, at least in part, to provoke His chosen ones to jealousy.


Your brief comment on the seeming irrelevancy of the old covenant in relation to the new covenant is true in general. That is to say that the old covenant is now obsolete and God will now withhold His wrath against those who resist until the end of days. However without understanding the history you cannot rightly understand the new covenant. Sadly most of the Christian church today only has a superficial understanding of the gospel mixed with a lot of erroneous teachings. In Jesus day the church was hostile to Him. I'm sad to say I believe it will be the same when He comes back.

 

[Ba'al]

All the time past up until Jesus came God's covenant people resisted Him. As a group they even resisted Jesus, with some exceptions of coarse, and still do today. But God through Jesus Christ decided to offer the covenant life He had been trying offer His chosen people for 4000 years to all who would receive it in an attempt, at least in part, to provoke His chosen ones to jealousy.

You seem to believe the Jews should follow the New Testament to be "updated" in their beliefs. Why haven't you "updated" your beliefs by reading the Quran? Is it that you beieve the Jews and Muslims have it all wrong and you are right?

 

[comradesoul]

Deuteronomy (2:34) "So we captured all his cities at that time and utterly destroyed the men, women and children of every city. We left no survivor."

Deuteronomy (7:2) "and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy."

Joshua (6:21) "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and donkey, with the edge of the sword."

This is the type of thing I am talking about. Sorry I don't see the God consciousness in this type of behavior.

Do all the Christians here see this type of behavior compatable with the teachings of Christ?

 

[comradesoul]

Your brief comment on the seeming irrelevancy of the old covenant in relation to the new covenant is true in general. That is to say that the old covenant is now obsolete and God will now withhold His wrath against those who resist until the end of days. However without understanding the history you cannot rightly understand the new covenant. Sadly most of the Christian church today only has a superficial understanding of the gospel mixed with a lot of erroneous teachings. In Jesus day the church was hostile to Him. I'm sad to say I believe it will be the same when He comes back.

Interesting 2nd mouse. I must say I don't see the Jews as being anymore dear to the Lord than any of His other children. I think the Jews who wrote those books obviously did and that is why we hear it all through the Jewish perspective and not a universal one. I believe the voice which speaks true about God has a universal vision which seems only obvious since the entire universe has come from the same God.

I would like to ask you if you draw much inspiration from reading such accounts of warring tribes slaughtering each other or not. If so how is helpful to your Christian path?

BTW This is only my 2nd day here so we are both newcomers.

 

[2nd mouse]

You seem to believe the Jews should follow the New Testament to be "updated" in their beliefs. Why haven't you "updated" your beliefs by reading the Quran? Is it that you beieve the Jews and Muslims have it all wrong and you are right?

Update? It's not about updating. It's about what the bible teaches. Throughout the old testament it speakes of a coming messiah. Christians believe Jesus is that messiah and the Jews do not.
The jews do not have it "all" wrong. What they have wrong, to use your word, is that they are still waiting for their messiah. They don't realize that Jesus is the messiah.
The religion of Islam is not relevent to this thread.

 

[Ba'al]

They don't realize that Jesus is the messiah.
The religion of Islam is not relevent to this thread.

Oh, so you are saying they have it wrong. The Quran is as relevant to this thread as the New Testament is to the Old Testament.

 

[2nd mouse]

Interesting 2nd mouse. I must say I don't see the Jews as being anymore dear to the Lord than any of His other children. I think the Jews who wrote those books obviously did and that is why we hear it all through the Jewish perspective and not a universal one. I believe the voice which speaks true about God has a universal vision which seems only obvious since the entire universe has come from the same God.

I would like to ask you if you draw much inspiration from reading such accounts of warring tribes slaughtering each other or not. If so how is helpful to your Christian path?

BTW This is only my 2nd day here so we are both newcomers.

well keep in mind, first of all, that this is not my opinion, but rather clearly stated through out the old testament. I mean you don't have to know anything about the bible to know that the Jewish people are the primary focus of the old testament scriptures. That focus mainly consists of the Jewish peoples obstinence and resistance to God. Your response implies that the Jewish people had a certain arrogance about that somewhat elevated position in Gods eyes, and you are correct, they did, and for the most part the orthadox Jews still do. That arrogance was completely unwarranted however. That elevated state has absolutely nothing to do with anything they contributed but solely on the covenant that God made with Abraham. I am convinced and the bible states in few places that God multiple times was irritated with them.

Yes, God through the new covenant has openly invited all of mankind into the relationship that the Jewish people so far have rejected.

Do I draw inspiration from all that bloodshed and carnage? What I gleen from those accounts is a God that will stop at nothing, even things that would offend our modern minds, to fulfill his promises and defend those who He has covenanted with. I don't know about you, but this is the kind of person I want on my side.

 

[comradesoul]

Do I draw inspiration from all that bloodshed and carnage? What I gleen from those accounts is a God that will stop at nothing, even things that would offend our modern minds, to fulfill his promises and defend those who He has covenanted with. I don't know about you, but this is the kind of person I want on my side.

Not me. I could never love such a small minded being as God. Jesus teaches to love equally are enemies as well as our friends. I would expect the Supreme Being to love all His children the same and not pick a handful to favor with His grace and salvation while condemning the vast majority to an eternity of damnation.

So far there has only been one response which even attempted to describe how such accounts as in Deuteronomy above could be inspiring to them. That says alot right there I think.

 

[John D]

Can you give an example of whatyou mean John?

Try reading the OT as a possible example of how to resolve a problem in your life -eg - Forgifeness and reconciling - The story of Joseph and his brothers.
- Hatred - Look at the consequences of this (killing of innocents)
- creation of a religion - the traps, hatred and war.
- seeking truth - look at the inner fight of some of the prophets, king David.
- feeling lost in the dessert of doubt and unbelieve - Israels 40 years
- Questions - what is my destiny - look at the way they conquered the enemy and claim the land ( spiritualise it and look for the "enemy" in your own soul and conquer your "promised land" - your soul and inner being. )

There is lots more, but you must apply it to your own life and search. You will learn a right way of doing things and be shown the consequences of wrong choices - or - You can read it as a story of one people's history and get fed-up with it all and become an athiest or whatever.

It is a book of hidden knowledge
It is a book that brings division
It is a book that you hate or love.
It is a book with purpose.

 

[benjaminvende]

are there more christians or boudism...

 

[sonofskeptish]

The Quran does not teach of such violence as in the Old Testament.

While the god of the OT sure seems to take the sadism crown, doesn't the Quran contain it's fair share too? Aren't amputation, crucification, immuring, flogging, etc. all acceptable punishments detailed in the Quran? How about descriptions of "Judgment Day"... people swallowed by boiling oceans, devoured by wild beasts, etc.?

I admit that I haven't looked into it in depth... Islams treatment of women as described by Ayaan Hirsi Ali is enough for me to reach my conclusion.