Question for Creationists

[Meow Mix]

I'm sure this one has been done before but not in my lifetime on this board.

Can creationists please explain why we find biological life stratified in an undeniable order of complexity from oldest strata to newer strata?

For instance, why no flowering plants in the cretaceous or before? If it was because of a flood, did they all uproot and run uphill?

 

[Verdadero]

I believe in evolutionary creationism

 

[Meow Mix]

I believe in evolutionary creationism

Ok, then I guess we sit back and wait to see how common descent deniers explain it

 

[Verdadero]

Well I had a pastor tell me one time that satan put dino bones in the earth to mislead humanity. Needless to say I don't go to his church anymore but I imagine that is a belief that others hold too

 

[Danmac]

I'm sure this one has been done before but not in my lifetime on this board.

Can creationists please explain why we find biological life stratified in an undeniable order of complexity from oldest strata to newer strata?

For instance, why no flowering plants in the cretaceous or before? If it was because of a flood, did they all uproot and run uphill?

No they floated uphill silly.

 

[Meow Mix]

No they floated uphill silly.

I'm assuming that was in jest

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The usual argument from a Biblical fundamentalist perspective is that during the flood the stronger animals were able to climb higher before drowning than the weaker (or simpler animals) and were thus fossilized at a higher strata.

Of course like all creationist arguments this one walls apart under even minor scrutiny when you consider the fact that animals such as tortoises are found higher than, say, a raptor or T-rex.

 

[Autodidact]

I'm assuming that was in jest

Prepare to be amazed.

 

[Autodidact]

No they floated uphill silly.

The flowering plants "floated uphill" but the giant ferns did not? Why not? Why are all the giant fern fossils always found in layers beneath the flowering plants?

Could you be more specific, and address why the oldest and deepest fossil layers always contain the earlier, more primitive species, including flying species, while the higher levels always include the more recent species, such as all mammals, including say moles and sloths?

 

[Wotan]

I'm assuming that was in jest

You know what they say about assuming.

Anyway if you not familiar with AIG here is their answer.

There is on another site a poster who is on the facility at Liberty U. He is most adamant defender of a global yr long flood. And he is quite good at it.

His defense on this point is two fold. 1st who are assuming that there is a "progression" in species. You are further assuming an old earth. Neither assumption is justified. What the record actually shows is a layer by layer mud flow laid down over several months in which the creatures were deposited. Any "reading" of these layers beyond that simple understanding is pure speculation and guesswork. And since we have an eye witness account of the entire event such speculation is pointless.

Hey, I'm just quiting here.

 

[Meow Mix]

You know what they say about assuming.

Anyway if you not familiar with AIG here is their answer.

There is on another site a poster who is on the facility at Liberty U. He is most adamant defender of a global yr long flood. And he is quite good at it.

His defense on this point is two fold. 1st who are assuming that there is a "progression" in species. You are further assuming an old earth. Neither assumption is justified. What the record actually shows is a layer by layer mud flow laid down over several months in which the creatures were deposited. Any "reading" of these layers beyond that simple understanding is pure speculation and guesswork. And since we have an eye witness account of the entire event such speculation is pointless.

Hey, I'm just quiting here.

lol. I wouldn't so much call him good at it.

Why would all the dragonflies and other insects be much worse at getting away than the birds and other insects (which we would call more modern ones)?

 

[The Neo Nerd]

You know what they say about assuming.

Yes that you make an *** of you and some guy called ming.

-Q

 

[Wotan]

lol. I wouldn't so much call him good at it.

Why would all the dragonflies and other insects be much worse at getting away than the birds and other insects (which we would call more modern ones)?

Which is more likely to correct. The written record of an eyewitness or speculation by others thousands of years after the fact?

 

[Gunfingers]

I was reading through the article Odin linked and i found something interesting.

Fossils of sea creatures are found in rock layers high above sea level...If the Genesis Flood, as described in Genesis 7-8, really occurred, what evidence would we expect to find?

They formed a hypothesis, made a prediction, and tested it! Holy crap! This is huge! Hell, if you ignore all the other geological information indicating the contrary it's even a reasonable conclusion. If we can get them to keep doing that they'll eventually figure out what really happened and stop with this nonsense!

 

[Man of Faith]

The usual argument from a Biblical fundamentalist perspective is that during the flood the stronger animals were able to climb higher before drowning than the weaker (or simpler animals) and were thus fossilized at a higher strata.

Of course like all creationist arguments this one walls apart under even minor scrutiny when you consider the fact that animals such as tortoises are found higher than, say, a raptor or T-rex.

With this post you actually refuted the OP when you say that more complex beings are not always in the right order.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

With this post you actually refuted the OP when you say that more complex beings are not always in the right order.

Where did I say that and how, exactly, does that refute the OP?

 

[Autodidact]

With this post you actually refuted the OP when you say that more complex beings are not always in the right order.

More complex? What are you talking about? Are you under the misapprehension that animals always evolve to become more complex? Do you intend to ever learn what ToE actually says, or continue to try to attack it without actually understanding it? It's not about which is more complex, after all, new viruses are emerging constantly, and you wouldn't call them more complex than elephants, would you? The point is that the newer species, such as mammals, which evolved more recently, are always in the higher, newer layers of rock, while the extinct species, such as giant ferns and pterodactyls, are always in older, lower layers of rock. Every time. Just as ToE predicts. So once again ToE makes literally millions of predictions, all of them borne out. Every time. 100%. Meanwhile, this completely falsifies your hypothesis. If there is a flood, and everything dies, then you would see a thick sedimentary layer, all over the world, on every continent, with a mishmash of every sort of creature in it, all at the same time. There is no such layer. Your hypothesis is falsified.

 

[Meow Mix]

With this post you actually refuted the OP when you say that more complex beings are not always in the right order.

There is an order of complexity but not every single organism is going to be more complex than the last... this should be obvious to someone who really understands common descent.

I already gave the example of flowering plants only being found after the cretaceous.

Let's say that if you take different biological "innovations" and put them on a timeline you'd end up with something that looks like a branching tree. How could a flood organize critters in such a way?

 

[Man of Faith]

There is an order of complexity but not every single organism is going to be more complex than the last... this should be obvious to someone who really understands common descent.

Your OP states that there is an order of complexity in the strata and now you are back-tracking, that's fine.

I already gave the example of flowering plants only being found after the cretaceous.

Let's say that if you take different biological "innovations" and put them on a timeline you'd end up with something that looks like a branching tree. How could a flood organize critters in such a way?

Plants and animals lived in different evological zones. For example, tigers don't live in the water, but fish do. We wouldn't expect to find plants or animals in certain parts of the geological column as much as we wouldn't expect to find a rabbit fossil in the ocean.

"There are many geological, behavioral, and physiological factors expected to affect the sorting of animals into strata during a flood as described in the Bible, such as evological zonation, hydrological sorting and liquefaction, differential escape, biogeographic zonation, and tetonic activity." "The fossils in the geological column demonstrate this expected trend. The first organisms to be buried were the bottom dwelling creatures, followed by free-swimming marine life forms, cold blooded, then warm-blooded, and then humans. It is obvious that organisms possess varying abilities to survive environmental stress (i.e. cold blooded animals such as reptiles are extremely sensitive to temperature fluctuations, and amphibian will die upon contact with salt water)."
Fossil sorting - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Your OP states that there is an order of complexity in the strata and now you are back-tracking, that's fine.

She isn't "backtracking". There is an undeniable order of complexity in the geological strata.

Plants and animals lived in different ecological zones. For example, tigers don't live in the water, but fish do. We wouldn't expect to find plants or animals in certain parts of the geological column as much as we wouldn't expect to find a rabbit fossil in the ocean.

You do realize that finding things at various geological strata has nothing to do with them just the particular environment the organisms inhabited, right? Stratas form over time.

"There are many geological, behavioral, and physiological factors expected to affect the sorting of animals into strata during a flood as described in the Bible, such as evological zonation, hydrological sorting and liquefaction, differential escape, biogeographic zonation, and tetonic activity." "The fossils in the geological column demonstrate this expected trend. The first organisms to be buried were the bottom dwelling creatures, followed by free-swimming marine life forms, cold blooded, then warm-blooded, and then humans. It is obvious that organisms possess varying abilities to survive environmental stress (i.e. cold blooded animals such as reptiles are extremely sensitive to temperature fluctuations, and amphibian will die upon contact with salt water)."
Fossil sorting - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science

Then why do we find dinosaur fossils (including airborne dinosaur fossils) at lower levels in the geological strata than, say, mankind's aquatic ancestors? You realize that what is being stated by this source of yours is not only badly quote-mined but entirely irrelevant.