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Question for Creationists

Ok, I am getting really frustrated with my slow internet connection at the moment.

I am going to go away and come back later when maybe my connection may be better.

I will then make a very brief reply to this thread before starting a fresh with new threads.

If I do not address something in the new threads then please just bring it to my attention, I do intend to reply to every message.

When it is one person discussing with several, it is easy to miss things out that others may deem important - please be patient.

Thank you.

(This should accomplish the 15 posts, which enables me to post links and quote people. Bizarrely when I tried to quote people previously I was told I could not quote websites so had to delete it therefore sometimes my posts did not allows read as I intended)
 

evolved yet?

A Young Evolutionist
I propose the following threads to be formed:

1) The latest proposed mechanisms of the flood and how this relates to the fossil record. (This will mostly focus on the idea that the global flood involved a number of geological events including massive tectonic plate shifts, massive amounts of new earth deposited when magma came up through the gaps in the earth's crust, massive mud slides, and of course significant amounts of rainfall).

2) A thread specific to the claims of Steve Austin around the geology of Mount St Helens, which I hope will make more sense when I am able to provide links for his work.

3) Possibly a thread on how going from A level biology (where I believed in evolution) to medical school (where I saw how the mechanism played out in a species - humans, this led me to question the mechanism of evolution, thus leading me to Creationism). This will be low on my list of threads, because basically this would be about my background, which is not important in the context of the discussions. However, a lot of questions have been asked and a lot of false allegations have been made against me so there would be questions to answers and I can show myself to be honest about my background.

4) Potentially a thread on the age of the earth.
This is basically the most important topic. If the earth is very old (billions of years) then it opens the door for evolutionary theory to be possible. However, if there is not billions of years then the theory of evolution is shown to be false. A long amount of time is required for evolution to account for the massive amount of diversity we see all around us.


Any other threads that I should include?
Maybe a summation of the evidence for the biological part of your side, not the flood part. A summation of your theory would be good to. Mutation too.
 

Danmac

Well-Known Member
I'm sure this one has been done before but not in my lifetime on this board.

Can creationists please explain why we find biological life stratified in an undeniable order of complexity from oldest strata to newer strata?

For instance, why no flowering plants in the cretaceous or before? If it was because of a flood, did they all uproot and run uphill?

The Flood
 
I'm sure this one has been done before but not in my lifetime on this board.

Can creationists please explain why we find biological life stratified in an undeniable order of complexity from oldest strata to newer strata?

For instance, why no flowering plants in the cretaceous or before? If it was because of a flood, did they all uproot and run uphill?

As soon as someone can tell me one place where we can find the entire geologic column. As well as in its correct order.
 

Krok

Active Member
Danmac, please refer us to people who don't lie. Your souce lies. Openly. From your source The Flood
Danmac's source said:
Geologist Dr. John Morris explains, "Sedimentary rocks, by definition, are laid down as sediments by moving fluids, are made up of pieces of rock or other material which existed somewhere else, and were eroded or dissolved and redeposited in their present location.
This is easy to check. From John D. Morris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wiki said:
Morris has a B.S. in Civil Engineering from Virginia Tech (1969), a M.S., University of Oklahoma (1977), and a Ph.D., University of Oklahoma (1980) in Geological Engineering.
Your sources lied. You refered us to that source. Will you make the same mistake again? John Morris is not a geologist.
 

Krok

Active Member
Danmac, please refer us to people who don't lie. Your souce lies. Openly. From your source The Flood This is easy to check. From John D. Morris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Your sources lied. You refered us to that source. Will you make the same mistake again? John Morris is not a geologist.
And Danmac, Dr Morris doesn't know what he is doing. From your source:
Danmac's source said:
Geologist Dr. John Morris explains, "Sedimentary rocks, by definition, are laid down as sediments by moving fluids, are made up of pieces of rock or other material which existed somewhere else, and were eroded or dissolved and redeposited in their present location.
This is not true. He forgets about a lot of very important sedimentary deposits. For example: loess (sedimentary deposit) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia. He forgets about aeolian deposts. Aeolian deposits are sedimentary deposits. Very important all over the world. Deposited by the wind. Dr Morris is a big proponent of "flood geology", he is not a geologist, even though he pretends to be, and somehow completely forgets about aeolian deposits. Does anyone else smell a rat? :rolleyes:
 
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Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Response to Autodidact:
Would you like a lesson in the quote function? It is customary and courteous to use it.

“Because we can observe the effect that floods have. Furthermore, how could a layer of water and silt do anything else?”
You are assuming that a global flood would be exactly the same as a local flood.
I'm assuming that the same forces would be involved, only bigger. That's how science works, and it works pretty well.
Quote:
“Not really. It's a flood. It would behave like a flood. For example, it would require quite a lot of water--more than exists on earth.”
So, you’ve not bothered to read the theories of how a global flood might happen?
Not theories, fantasies. As you will see, I have probably read more
creationist crap than you.
“Creationists don't have theories, they have wild hallucinations and, having abandoned scientific method, no way to support or disprove them.”
So I take it that you have not bothered to read their theories then?
Not theories, and yes, I have, to my sorrow.

“There is no before the flood, because there was no flood.”
That is the best way to approach a subject. Assume you are right and then continue you can dismiss everything else that might come your way.
Not assume, conclude--the exact opposite. Based on the evidence.

“I don't want to know anything, since you don't know anything I don't. What I'm asking is for a peer-reviewed scientific journal article describing the thousands of SEDIMENTARY layers that you allege were produced by the Mt. St. Helens volcano. I can't wait to read them.”
Why don’t you just read what I have referred to? The sedimentary rock layers formed by Mount St Helens are there. They are discussed on the internet web pages.
They are not in the scientific journals that you might read because there is a significant publication bias – they will not accept publications from Creationists à this is well known.
Thank you, we are done, you are wrong, they are not sedimentary layers. You cannot provide a single scientific source that says so. Apparently your so-called scientists are afraid to subject their so-called "work" to real scrutinty.
So if you only read evolutionist journals then you will never actually read Creationist work and so will sit comfortably in your theory.
translation: If you only read scientific journals you will never encounter anti-scientific tripe. True.
However, I would have thought you would want to read about this subject. It is useful to look at in the discussion of sedimentary rock layering.
Believe me, I have. It's not sedimentary. It's volcanic. Duh. Flood != volcano.
“What proposed hypothesis? For what?”
This is the latest hypothesis on the mechanism of the global flood. In combination with rain fall, there would be massive tectonic plate movements resulting in widespread geological activity as described above.
Of course. Because whenever we have a large rain or flood, we notice that continents start skating around like curling stones on ice, and it's well known that rain causes continental movement.
“And what exactly is Mr. Austin's hypothesis?”
Go and look him up. It is very easy to do. Just search for Steve Austin Geologist. Not the wrestler. J
No thanks, it's your job to make your argument.
“So I take it that in fact you cannot produce a single scientific article describing the sedimentary layers laid down by a volcano?

How can a volcano produce sedimentary rock?

This is really basic geology. Freshman geology.”
Just go and look at the work that Steve Austin did on Mt St Helens. Until you do, you will go around in circles.
That's your job, Bubba.
Evolutionist geology journals will not publish his work. Not because of his work but because of who he is.
There is no such thing as an Evolutionist geology journal. Evolution is Biology. Duh. The word you're looking for is "scientific". There is no scientific journal that will publish his anti-science rantings.
Just read his work. Then critique it. Stop making excuses for not looking at the sedimentary rock layers laid down at Mt St Helens.
So you don't have an argument? Or a source? Or a cite? Just chant "Steve Austin" over and over like a wrestling fan? That's what I figured.

“Actually, that's the subject of this thread.”
I think this thread is trying to address too many different topics. With everybody’s permission, I propose that we discuss the different topics separately.
Fine with me.

I am struggling to reply to everybody because there lots of questions that are going off topic. I am trying to stick to the topic of addressing the fossil record and how it might come about.
Any time now.

I freely admit the limitations of the theory that the global flood can account for the fossil record. My honesty in this is then being treated as an excuse for not exploring it.
Not a theory, a hypothesis. The mark of a theory is that it does explain all the facts. Yours doesn't. Not limitation, refutation. Your hypothesis is falsified by the facts. Bye.

My approach to internet discussions is that I am open and honest. I freely admit when there are limitations and when we don't have all the evidence.
You have not honestly admitted the truth, which is that your hypothesis is contradicted by the facts.

I do wish that everybody would be the same in the way that they approach these discussions.
I agree. Unfortunately YECs cannot discuss the subject without lying. If you are an exception, it will be refreshing indeed.

So, can I start a different thread for different topics?
You can start any thread you like, and will be rewarded with frubals for doing so.
 
Again, thank you for the links. After spending some time reading the provided links as well as reading several other web site and sources on the subject of the Geologic Column from both young earth and old earth perspectives I am intellectually honest and humble enough to state on this forum on this particular issue I raised (wheather or not the entire labeled geologic column can be found at any one place on earth) that I was wrong. :foot: I must say that I was surprised at some of what I found, even some of the better documented young earth creation sites admit that the column can be found in some places. One thing that surprised me the most however was to learn (as documented from both evolutionists and creation sites) that the geologic column was created in the 1800's by committed Bible believing creationists. Here is an excerpt from one of Dave Matson's sites:

"...Perhaps Dr. Hovind is not aware of the fact that by 1815 the broad outlines of the geologic column from Paleozoic times onward had been worked out by people who were mostly creationist geologists. The relative order of the strata was first determined by the principles of stratification. (The principle of superposition was recognized as early as 1669 by Steno.) By 1830 Lyell's famous textbook, Principles of Geology, came out. The captain of the H.M.S. Beagle, a very strong Bible believer, made it a point to have a copy of Lyell's book for the ship's library. That was the age of the great creationist geologists!
The principle of faunal succession in the geologic record was established by direct observation as early as 1799 by William Smith. By the 1830's Adam Sedgwick and Roderick Murchison established a correlation between the various types of fossils and the rock formations in the British Isles. It was found that certain fossils, now referred to as index fossils, were restricted to a narrow zone of strata. Studies done on the European continent soon demonstrated the universal validity of index fossils. That is, an index fossil corresponded to a very specific point in the geologic column. Once the worth of index fossils had been established on the basis of stratification studies, they could logically be used to extend the correlation of rock formations to other continents. At this point in time they were simply a useful tool for correlating rock formations.
One can hardly accuse these pioneers of evolutionary prejudice. Nearly a half-century would yet pass before Darwin's book, The Origin of Species, was published! By then, the relative ages (order) of the geologic column had already been worked out in some detail. Later, the relative ages of the strata were confirmed and made absolute by radiometric dating. Thus, it became possible to date strata directly from index fossils. Note that, in principle, evolution has nothing to do with the use of index fossils to date strata! Rather, evolution should be seen as an explanation of the faunal succession, a succession which as worked out long before evolution dominated the scene..."

You can read the entire entry from the following site: MATSON v HOVIND by DAVE MATSON GEOLOGIC COLUMN you might find it of some interest.

- From what I can determine after reading many sources on the topic, one of the main debated points is not wheather or not the column can be found, but rather, how the dating of the column is determined (which is also discussed in the above link).

- Finally, here is one of the better young earth responses to the Dakota Column that I could find, thought you might want to read it as well:

Geological column - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science you will have to scroll down to the "claims of existence" section and then "The Williston Basin in North Dakota" subsection of the web page.
 
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