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Question for Monotheists

If you are a monotheist, do you believe at conception a person is a human in God's eyes?


  • Total voters
    15

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
one cannot know all that the absolute knows but one can know enough about self to know something about God. what are you within yourself? what are you within that is outside of self. can god only go so far then he is limited and separated from her Absoluteness?

"He who knows himself knows God,"[1] and, as it is Written in the Koran

we see the same idea being conveyed in Luke

Luke 11:52
“Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”

I believe the best translations is know [of] God. Your response did not address your assertion.

Fool said:
"meister eckhart, rumi, jesus, and a host of others would disagree with you."

The problem of arrogant egocentric claims remains. Too many conflicting claims as to who knows God, Jesus Christ obviously in all humility did not claim to know God, as cited.

I do not believe Rumi claimed to 'know' God.

By degrees we know [of] God.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I believe the best translations is know [of] God. Your response did not address your assertion.

Fool said:
"meister eckhart, rumi, jesus, and a host of others would disagree with you."

The problem of arrogant egocentric claims remains. Too many conflicting claims as to who knows God, Jesus Christ obviously in all humility did not claim to know God.

By degrees we know [of] God.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Are all of us Monotheists united in the "simple-minded" belief that God forms a human being in the womb at conception with an immortal soul? Meaning, in the eyes of God, it is a human being at conception?

PLEASE do not turn this into a debate about pro-life pro-choice views!! That isn't my intention. I've started enough of those ugly threads. My only intention here is to find out if Monotheists (Christians, Muslims, Jews, other) are all in agreement, that in God's eyes a human being is a human being at conception. Please let's keep it there. Thanks! :)


What has the question got to do with monotheism, that's a separate issue, and from the looks of it you're trying to get a "pro-life" jab in there And for the record, I'm a monotheistic deist and don't believe we actually become human until we acquire full self-aware consciousness. A single cell zygote with human DNA is essentially equivalent with all other life forms that start with a single cell. Can such a cell make moral choices?
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
What has the question got to do with monotheism, that's a separate issue, and from the looks of it you're trying to get a "pro-life" jab in there And for the record, I'm a monotheistic deist and don't believe we actually become human until we acquire full self-aware consciousness. A single cell zygote with human DNA is essentially equivalent with all other life forms that start with a single cell. Can such a cell make moral choices?
I was simply wondering if monotheists were united in the belief that life begins at conception in God's eyes

No, a cell can't make moral choices.

I'm taught a fetus has a soul at conception though.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
Are all of us Monotheists united in the "simple-minded" belief that God forms a human being in the womb at conception with an immortal soul?
{snip}

My only intention here is to find out if Monotheists (Christians, Muslims, Jews, other) are all in agreement, that in God's eyes a human being is a human being at conception.

I don't it's possible for any group of people to be totally united in any belief.

IMO, the soul is implanted by G-d onto the fetus.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
I was simply wondering if monotheists were united in the belief that life begins at conception in God's eyes

Does monotheism mean religion by committee? If not, what is the source authority that initiated monotheism, and which brand of it?

No, a cell can't make moral choices.

I'm taught a fetus has a soul at conception though.[/QUOTE]

If a cell can't make moral choices, what does make moral choices, and when/how does that start ? So you believe a fetus has a soul at conception because you've been taught that way? So you believe what you've been taught to believe because you've been taught to do so? How long does that string of hearsay take you back, and how do you know it goes back to God...because you've been taught that too?

I don't it's possible for any group of people to be totally united in any belief.

Why? We're all waterians who not only believe but know that we will die in about 3 days without it. (I could have started with Airians in 2 minutes, but it sounded to nazified.)

IMO, the soul is implanted by G-d onto the fetus.

Who implanted your belief?
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Does monotheism mean religion by committee? If not, what is the source authority that initiated monotheism, and which brand of it?

No, a cell can't make moral choices.

I'm taught a fetus has a soul at conception though.

If a cell can't make moral choices, what does make moral choices, and when/how does that start ? So you believe a fetus has a soul at conception because you've been taught that way? So you believe what you've been taught to believe because you've been taught to do so? How long does that string of hearsay take you back, and how do you know it goes back to God...because you've been taught that too?



Why? We're all waterians who not only believe but know that we will die in about 3 days without it. (I could have started with Airians in 2 minutes, but it sounded to nazified.)



Who implanted your belief?[/QUOTE]
I'm currently Catholic, because that is the religion that makes the most sense to me and relieves the most of my human misery and gives me the most Joy . That religion teaches that life begins at conception. I won't consider it a personal attack if you label me a fool for believing such things
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I'm currently Catholic, because that is the religion that makes the most sense to me and relieves the most of my human misery and gives me the most Joy . That religion teaches that life begins at conception. I won't consider it a personal attack if you label me a fool for believing such things

Not a fool, but self fulfilling belief in what gives you the most joy, and fulfills your desire belief is 'oh so' common for a wide diversity of conflicting beliefs of the world, and I consider a weak reason for belief.

If the shoes fit comfortably they are not likely the right shoes.
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
Are all of us Monotheists united in the "simple-minded" belief that God forms a human being in the womb at conception with an immortal soul? Meaning, in the eyes of God, it is a human being at conception?

PLEASE do not turn this into a debate about pro-life pro-choice views!! That isn't my intention. I've started enough of those ugly threads. My only intention here is to find out if Monotheists (Christians, Muslims, Jews, other) are all in agreement, that in God's eyes a human being is a human being at conception. Please let's keep it there. Thanks! :)

I believe that we existed as spirit children of God long before we were born and became "human beings". When we left our heavenly home and entered our newly formed physical body, our mortal life began. I don't know when this happens in the pregnancy and birth cycle. Some fellow Mormons have strong personal opinions as to if this happens at conception, sometime later in the pregnancy, or at birth when the child takes it's first breath. Or perhaps it's not at the same time for every person. Our doctrine, our revelations, don't specify.
 
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idav

Being
Premium Member
Are all of us Monotheists united in the "simple-minded" belief that God forms a human being in the womb at conception with an immortal soul? Meaning, in the eyes of God, it is a human being at conception?

PLEASE do not turn this into a debate about pro-life pro-choice views!! That isn't my intention. I've started enough of those ugly threads. My only intention here is to find out if Monotheists (Christians, Muslims, Jews, other) are all in agreement, that in God's eyes a human being is a human being at conception. Please let's keep it there. Thanks! :)
There are various interpretations from monotheists. Some believe the first breath is when the soul enters while some believe souls choose their parents even before conception. Also montheism can include the idea of one soul for all of life.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I was simply wondering if monotheists were united in the belief that life begins at conception in God's eyes

No, a cell can't make moral choices.

I'm taught a fetus has a soul at conception though.
I wasn't quite sure how to answer, so I didn't vote. Unlike other Christians, Mormons believe that each of us had a pre-mortal life and existed as cognizant spirit beings who lived with God prior to our birth here on earth. So, in a sense, since a spirit is essentially a life force, we were alive long before conception. I'd say that in order to be "a living soul" (which would be a spirit residing within a physical body), we would have to have actually been born for this to be the case. I'm not sure whether the LDS Church even has made an official statement as to when "mortal life" begins, in other words, whether it's a conception, at birth, or at some time in between.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Is there anything in the Bible or Book of Mormon that talks about this prior spirit life. Or is it just something someone made up, like so many other beliefs?
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Behold, said he, thou art with child, and thou shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Ismael, because the Lord hath heard thy affliction.” (Genesis 16:11

I know that doesn't answer your question but scripture says "before I formed you in the womb I knew you"
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Is there anything in the Bible or Book of Mormon that talks about this prior spirit life. Or is it just something someone made up, like so many other beliefs?
The Bible alludes to the concept that we existed prior to our birth, as do The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price (all of which are part of the LDS canon of scripture. The verses in the Bible that I'm thinking of make sense to Mormons within this context, although other Christian religions would probably interpret them differently. I can elaborate if you're interested. PopeADope mentions one of these passages in his post 54 (just above this one).
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST ONE OF TWO

While I am unsure of the specific nuance of the existence of a pre-mortal spirit as it applies specifically to the O.P.s question, I believe that the early Judeo-Christians and their belief in the existence of a cognizant spirit existing before birth is more coherent and rational and more intuitive than the later Jewish and Christian interpretations.


MULTIPLE JUDAO-CHRISTIAN TEXTS DESCRIBE PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE AND IT’S RELATIONSHIP TO PRESENT CONDITIONS

Many, many of the earliest Judao-Christian sacred Texts, relate the expansive doctrine of the pre-mortal realm and the nature of spirits there and God’s purposes for creation. The theme of pre-creation and what happened there is written into the early sacred texts, their hymns contain the doctrine; virtually ALL of the ascension literature contains the doctrine, the war in heaven texts certainly contain the doctrine; the earliest liturgies contain the doctrine; the midrashic texts contain the doctrine, the Jewish Haggadah contains the doctrine, the Zohar contains it; the testament literature is full of it. One simply cannot READ the earliest sacred Judao-Christian texts without reference to this early Christian doctrine. This vast early literature is part of the context for early christians and illuminates their understanding of biblical texts that reference this pre-creation time period and what happened there.


Enoch, in his vision of pre-creation heaven, relates seeing the spirits that have populated and will populate the earth during it’s existence : ”... I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1st Enoch 40:1)

The great scribe Enoch is commanded by the angel to : ... write all the souls of men, whatever of them are not yet born, and their places, prepared for eternity. 5 For all souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth.” (2nd Enoch 23:4-5)

In his vision the angel bids Enoch, “Come and I will show you the souls of the righteous who have already been created and have returned, and the souls of the righteous who have not yet been created.”

After seeing various pre-existent souls, the ancient midrashic explanation is given us by himself Enoch regarding these many souls says : “the spirit shall clothe itself in my presence” refers to the souls of the righteous which have already been created in the storehouse of beings and have returned to the presence of god; and “the souls which I have made” refers to the souls of the righteous which have not yet been created in the storehouse.” (3rd Enoch 43:1-3)

The vast ascension literature, describes the pre-creation realm of spirits. Abraham, in his ascension Vision describes the unnumbered spirits he sees, many of whom are waiting to come into mortality. The angel says to Abraham : “Look now beneath your feet at the firmament and understand the creation that was depicted of old (i.e. planned). Among other things Abraham says “I saw there a great crowd of men and women and children, half of them on the right side of the portrayal, and half of them on the left side of the portrayal.”... He asks : “Eternal, Mighty One! What is this picture of creation?” 2 And he said to me, “This is my will with regard to what is in the council and it became good before my face (i.e. according to his plan).. “These who are on the left side are a multitude of tribes who existed previously...and through you. some (who have been) prepared for being put in order (slav” restoration”), others for revenge and perdition at the end of the age....those on the right side of the picture are the people set apart for me of the people with azazel; these are the ones I have prepared to be born of you and to be called my people (The Apocalypse of Abraham 21:1-7 and 22:1-5 and 23:1-3)

The doctrine of pre-mortal existence of the spirits within men permeates the biblical text as well. A knowledge of this simple principle explains and underlying so many of the quotes in many other texts as well. In the Old testament it was said : “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (ecclesiates 12:7). This principle is mirrored in multiple other early Judao Christian texts as well : When God the Father commands the son to “Go, take the soul of my beloved Sedrach, and put it in Paradise.” The only begotten Son said to Sedrach, “give me that which our Father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born.” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5).

When the Son finally DOES take the Soul of the Mortal Sedrach, he simply takes it back to God “where it came from”. God’s statement to the prophet Sedrach is simply a rephrase of what God said in Old Testament Ecclesiastes 12:7...” and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” This principle is repeated in this same ancient usage in many of the ancient sacred texts from the earliest periods.

“Jesus said, “Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the Kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return.” (THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS v 49)

Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4)

The Early Christian usage of Ecclesiates 12:7 was used in this same way by the Apostle Peter as he explained to Clement that "This world was made so that the number of spirits predestined to come here when their number was full could receive their bodies and again be conducted back to the light." (Recognitions)

In this same ancient context, the question God asked Job; “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?”; was NOT simply rhetorical, but it was a REMINDER :

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4-7)

In this early Judao-Christian context, Job KNEW the answer when God asked where Job was when God laid the foundations of the earth “and all the sons of God shouted for joy”. The texts are explicit that the spirits were taught regarding God’s plan to send the spirits of men to earth. They knew they would undergo a fall of Adam and Of the pre-mortal Redeemer. The savior describes this period of time to the ancient Prophet Seth when sons of God shouted for Joy. The redeemer said regarding this time period before creation in a assembly of jubilant spirits : “And I said these things to the whole multitude of the multitudinous assembly of the rejoicing Majesty. The whole house of the Father of Truth rejoiced that I am the one who is from them.... And they all had a single mind, since it is out of one. They charged me since I was willing. I came forth to reveal the glory to my kindred and my fellow spirits.” (The second treatise of the Great Seth)


In explaining the relationship the pre-mortal realm of spirits, to the current time when individuals do as they please, unhampered (as it were), by a remembrance of pre-mortal relationships, the messiah remarked : Quote: “After we went forth from our home, and came down to this world, and came into being in the world in bodies, we were hated and persecuted, not only by those who are ignorant, but also by those who think that they are advancing the name of Christ, since they were unknowingly empty, not knowing who they are, like dumb animals. They persecuted those who have been liberated by me, since they hate them...” (The second treatise of the Great Seth)

The early Christian doctrine of Pre-mortal existence removed arbitrariness out of the accusation that God himself created spirits unequally. IN this ancient model, the spirits are partly responsible for their own nature upon entering this life. Instead of arbitrarily creating spirits with defects (the very defects for which spirits may be punished for later), in this early christian context, the Lord creates the body in relationship to certain characteristics the spirit has already obtained (or did not obtain) in it’s heavenly abode over vast periods of time. For example, Napthali explains this to his sons from the testament literature :

For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit,” and, because the Lord knows and has known the spirit over eons, “ the Lord knows the body to what extent it will persist in goodness, and when it will be dominated by evil. For there is no form or conception which the Lord does not know since he created every human being according to his own image.” (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2-5)

In the context of the spirit of man existing long before other spirits, Jewish Haggadah relates that Instead of being the last, man is really the first work of creation...With the soul of Adam the souls of all the generations of men were created. They are stored up in a promptuary, in the seventh of the heavens, whence they are drawn as they are needed for human body after human body.” The Haggadah (The Soul of Man)

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST TWO OF TWO


This it the very same teaching the Apostle Peter taught the Christian convert Clement
. The Apostle Peter tells the young christian convert Clement about the pre-earth council and man’s place within this plan : "which (plan) He [God the Father] of his own good pleasure announced in the presence of all the first angels which were assembled before Him. Last of all He made man whose real nature, however, is older and for whose sake all this was created." (Recognitions)

The principle that man’s spirit pre-exists the creation was one of the FIRST things the Apostle Peter teaches Clement. I believe there is a reason the Apostle Peter taught the principle of Pre-Existence to Clement at an early stage in Clements conversion to Christianity. Perhaps, for such theists, the key to understanding what God is doing with mankind is contained inside of the concept that we are eternally spiritual.

Many early Judao-Christian texts are quite explicit in explaining the doctrines underlying the New Testament Theology on this subject. For example : Speaking of the souls of men and the manner after which they are sent from their heavenly dwelling place to earth, the Haggadah relates : “The soul and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived...God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it – whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all it’s other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. “Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, “Bring me the soul so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so.” The angel brings the designated soul, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before him.”

Occasionally the spirit is reluctant to leave the untainted pre-mortal heaven for an earth where she knows her existence will be more difficult as she gains her moral education by coming to earth. In such accounts, God is NOT angry but the text says “ God consoles her. The text relates God telling the soul that Quote: “The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than the world in which you have lived hitherto, and when I created you, it was only for this purpose.

The entire chapter regarding the soul of man discussed in detail what happens with spirits before they enter the body and it relates their forgetting of their prior preparation and existence with God. (I might mention that souls anciently are all described in the female gender - like ships are - in modern parlance)

Such principles in the Haggadic text (which is related to the talmudic history) is mirrored in several other texts. For example, the Zohar confirms the doctrine as it relates essentially the same description. : “At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each soul was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this and this place, into this and this body.” Yet often enough the soul would reply: “Lord of the world, I am content to remain in this realm, , and have no wish to depart to some other, where I shall be in thralldom, and become stained.” Whereupon the Holy One, be blessed, would reply: “Your destiny is, and has been from the day of thy forming, to go into that world.” Then the soul, realizing it could not disobey, would unwillingly descend and come into this world. (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)

In very symbolic language, the Zohar relates the creation of the souls in heaven to the point that they become formed and cognizant and take on characteristics they will keep with them when they are placed into bodies at birth, even to the point of having gender. Speaking of these fully developed souls it says : “the soul of the female and the soul of the male, are hence preeminent above all the heavenly hosts and camps.The question in the sacred text is then asked : " It may be wondered, if they [the souls] are thus preeminent on both sides, why do they descend to this world only to be taken thence at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day. [...]Speaking of those left behind who mourn it was taught “Withal, the village people weep for the departure of the king’s son from among them. But one wise man said to them: ‘Why do you weep? Was this not the king’s son, whose true place is in his father’s palace and not with you?...’ “If the righteous were only aware of this, they would be filled with joy when their time comes to leave this world. For does it not honor them greatly that the matron comes down on their account, to take them into the King’s palace, where the King may every day rejoice in them?....And so, happy are the righteous and in the world to come, ... (THE ZOHAR - A SEAL UPON YOUR HEART).


THE LOSS OF MANY EARLY DOCTRINES

The centuries following the death of Christ were described by a logia of Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas as follows : “Jesus said, “The kingdom of the [father] is like a certain woman who was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking [on the] road, still some distance from home, the handle of the jar broke and the meal emptied out behind her [on] the road. She did not realize it; she had noticed no accident. When she reached her house, she set the jar down and found it empty.

This logia is one of many sad descriptions of the failed attempt to pass on the doctrines and traditions of the early Christianities to later generations, however, in the last days, when one looks inside of modern Christian Churches, one finds that much of the doctrinal substance that gave the early Church it’s value, is no longer to be found in it. The modern Christians have lost much of the precious knowledge for which the agnostics and philosophers have been clamoring and debating over for 1700 years.


THE POTENTIAL SUPERIORITY OF ANCIENT JUDEO-CHRISTIAN RELIGION AND ITS DOCTRINES AND INTERPRETATIONS COMPARED TO LATER JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN RELIGION WITH THEIR DOCTRINES AND INTERPRETATIONS.

From a historical standpoint, a return to this early Judeo-Christian model has multiple advantages over the modern religious models :
This early Judeo-Christian doctrine relates pre-creation conditions to current conditions in mortality better than the later "modern" theory of ex-nihilo creation of spirits "in an instant" (e.g. at birth).

The early Judeo-Christian doctrine of spirits existing prior to birth changes religious speculations in wonderful ways that add logic and a rational intuitiveness that is not present in ex-nihilo creation of spirits “at an instant”.

The early Judeo-Christian doctrine of spirits existing prior to birth contains mechanisms that restore fairness and remove some arbitrariness of mortality in ways that the modern doctrines of ex-nihilo creation of spirits “in an instant” can never do.

The early Judeo-Christian doctrine of spirits existing prior to birth and a study of pre-mortal conditions improves the logical and rational conditions surrounding the Fall of Adam.

I believe the earliest Judeo-Christians had better doctrines and better worldviews than the later Jews and Christians developed and adopted.

In any case, whether the early Judeo-Christians who believed in this doctrine were correct or the later doctrines from the ages of the theologians, I hope individuals considering their own models on these points come to their own understanding and beliefs on these issues.

Clear
φυφυτωω
 
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