Question for Most Christians: God being Spaceless, and Immaterial

[Terry Sampson]

1. Looks like an interesting read.
   
2. From the introduction and references to the Hebrew Bible it seems clear that God’s Body isn’t a physical body at all,
3. not in the sense that you and I have physical bodies.

I agree with 1 and 3. Not so much with 2. IMO, to speak of God's Body requires a reevaluation of our common definition of "physical".

 

[Etritonakin]

I understand that it is a general Christian Belief that God is a person without a Body, And if God is without a Body, he is Spaceless, not dwelling in the Universe.

My question is does this belief have any scriptural doctrine behind it? And why would a belief of God having a Body and dwelling in this Universe be false?

From reading the Bible there seem to be multiple verses suggesting that God does have a corporeal nature.
Genesis 1:26-27 God made man in his image
Exodus 33:11 Moses spoke with God face to face
Genesis 32:30 Jacob saw God face to face

I'd love to read your response.

Technically, the being Moses, etc., dealt with was the Word -who became Christ.
However, though he is not the Father, he is also "God" (as in when "God' said "let us" go down and confuse their speech, etc.), and the fact that the same being was the Word, "I AM", Melchizedek. Christ, etc. shows that a body is simply an interface with all else -and an expression to all else.

When a human dies, their spirit returns to God. That which makes them the person they are inwardly is stored -awaiting resurrection within (at least eventually) a body "like unto his glorious body" -like that of Christ's glorious body -in which he will return, and similar to what Moses saw "according to the working thereof he is able to subdue all things unto himself -which means we will also have extreme power and ability. If we then consider the Father, his power is certainly by some means of interface -some sort of body -an arrangement of that which exists which allows for God-like attributes -and his very existence as a "self" is SOMEthing arranged as him which allows for thought, interaction, etc.

If the universe/creation once did not exist, then it must be by arrangement of that which did previously exist -which indicates that there are things MORE BASIC than what became arranged as the universe. More correctly, the complexity of the universe is an arrangement of more basic things.
Heb 11:3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
In other words, things which are seen ARE made of things which are not apparent.

Our bodies -and everything else we consider "physical" -are complex arrangements of more basic things. Therefore, we interface ON THAT LEVEL.
Changes we wish to make must be made through our present bodies -and our present bodies actually LIMIT our capability for that reason.
By creating extensions to our bodies, we can interface on other levels, but we do not really know the actual "resolution" of our reality -what might be the MOST basic building block, etc.
We have increased our abilities thereby, but the potential exists for increased abilities to be internalized as part of our own interface.
By different arrangements, both our minds and bodies could be capable of different things.
(The thought of man self-evolving makes me cringe, as it would likely be a horribly messy process -fortunately, God has it all worked out))

(I'm not saying the following is absolutely true, but this represents my present thoughts on the subject..... )
An "original" who was the sum of all things -"built" or developing from the most basic simplicity -from the most basic building blocks and developing/waking as a self every step of the way until self-aware and completely self-knowledgeable (rather than being mass-produced as we are and suddenly becoming awake within an already-complex and capable body) -would (perhaps ironically) be in a position to be "the Most High".
That position -and a complete understanding of the nature of the most basic things -of which that one would be composed -both that which could act and that which could be acted upon -would afford Godlike ability.
In other words, EVERYTHING IS GOD (the Father) -though the part of everything which allows for his thoughts, etc., might be considered the mind of God -and everything else the body/environment.
God (the Father) would not need a body to move around in an environment external to his overall self -as the sum of all things, but could create an environment for himself within himself by logical separation/arrangement -and arrange it in such a way as to interface with it all by will.
He would also be able to represent himself within himself as he willed.
Very little is written about why the Word/Christ is not in ultimate authority and the Father is in authority -why he is the Son of God, etc., but the closest thing I can think of or liken it to based on what is written in scripture is that the Word/Christ was God's first self-replication. He is called "the firstborn of many brethren" (though the angels [created greater than us, but in relative ignorance -being instructed but lacking experience] are called sons of God, the human experience was designed to make us the children of God -who would one day judge the affairs of the angels -as we were made "a little while lower" than the angels to gain the necessary experience."

Another way to look at it is that everything which now exists -including ourselves -is by subdivision and arrangment of "God" -which can apparently be done infinitely, as it is written...
"Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end"

 

[Skys]

Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." And I believe that shape is the very shape of man. And man was created in His shape because God the Son would become man and the exact image of God in every aspect. (Heb. 1:3) "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person

Thank you for those scriptures. It's very interesting to see the different understandings Christians have about the nature of God in this thread.

 

[Skys]

I have given up trying to visualise God.
Even the bible struggles to describe or explain his nature.
Most churches accept that he is outside time and space, but make little if any attempt to describe him or his nature.
The concept of the Trinity is inexpiable, except by the artifice of inventing other parallel concepts.

I suggest that we must be satisfied with the belief that God is benevolent towards both the universe and toward us.
If we are Christians we are likely to believe that Jesus was in some way his son, that his teachings are a true reflection of God, and that Jesus has now returned to God, and that we are watched over by the Holy spirit, until such time as Jesus will return.
The nature and role of Saints, Angels and the Heavenly Host, is more speculative than explained.
We may or may not understand or believe in a Trinity in the form defined by the Nicene creed.

God may not have all the attributes that we associate with him. We simply do not know the extent of his abilities and knowledge.
On the other hand he may have powers and abilities far greater and wider than we can comprehend.

I agree, it is difficult to get an accurate depiction/understanding of God, especially with some scriptures in the Bible that seemingly contradict each other.

You've given up trying to visualize God, does that affect the way you worship at all? or does it not matter?

 

[YoursTrue]

Thank you for those scriptures. It's very interesting to see the different understandings Christians have about the nature of God in this thread.

It seems to me that God describes Himself in the scriptures. It is not always easy to explain. Aside from some illustrations, Daniel and other places, Psalm 100 helps me to realize. The Scriptures help us to understand.
Psalm 100:3
Holman Christian Standard Bible
"Acknowledge that Yahweh is God. He made us, and we are His -- His people, the sheep of His pasture." I hope that adds to understanding.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I agree, it is difficult to get an accurate depiction/understanding of God, especially with some scriptures in the Bible that seemingly contradict each other.

You've given up trying to visualize God, does that affect the way you worship at all? or does it not matter?

Although I have tried, I have never been able to visualise God. So there is no change.
Except that I worship God not Jesus and find the Holy Spirit my main main point of contact and influence.
Jesus is my teacher and example.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

It seems to me that God describes Himself in the scriptures. It is not always easy to explain. Aside from some illustrations, Daniel and other places, Psalm 100 helps me to realize. The Scriptures help us to understand.
Psalm 100:3
Holman Christian Standard Bible
"Acknowledge that Yahweh is God. He made us, and we are His -- His people, the sheep of His pasture." I hope that adds to understanding.

That passage says nothing about God.
It speaks only of our relationship to God
All the passages in the Bible assume that we know what a god is, and the extent and the nature of his being.

 

[Paradorian64]

I agree with 1 and 3. Not so much with 2. IMO, to speak of God's Body requires a reevaluation of our common definition of "physical".

Take the Jehovah's Witnesses who tend to see everything in the sense of physicality, and involving the organic. The material sense of things.
But what becomes evident with study, is that the greater reality existent is not what we see as physical, or material, or organic. Rather, it is referred to as Spirit, and, involving the timeless.
(Apart from, "space/time")
This situation is referred to by St. Paul, when he speaks to the Greeks regarding their acknowledgement of the "Unknown God", and, "in Whom we live, and move, and have our being." If the greater reality is about eternity, infinity, or the timeless, then what does that make of the world ensconced in, "space/time"?
Is the Almighty bound in space and time? Or, is He Transcendent?

 

[Terry Sampson]

This situation is referred to by St. Paul, when he speaks to the Greeks regarding their acknowledgement of the "Unknown God", and, "in Whom we live, and move, and have our being." If the greater reality is about eternity, infinity, or the timeless, then what does that make of the world ensconced in, "space/time"?
Is the Almighty bound in space and time? Or, is He Transcendent?

Head's up... I am a devout, "baptized", and "confirmed" Antirelativist and have been for going on 40 years. From a self-acknowledged agnostic atheist, I received the following, in the early 2000s, and here say and affirm that:

• "Space", as in Newton's "Absolute Space", is an abstract noun that refers to a set, the elements of which are dimensionless points.
  • Space can be most simply imagined to be an infinite (i.e. boundless), three-dimensional nothingness that neither moves nor can be moved, nor stretched, nor shrunk.
• "Time", as in Newton's "Absolute Time", is an abstract noun that refers to a set, the elements of which are dimensionless instants.
  • Time can be most simply imagined to be infinite, (i.e. without beginning or end), and--unlike "time-keeping" phenomena that are or consist of physical objects--Time neither flows, runs, moves, stretches, nor contracts.
• All that actually and really is, is ensconced--your word, not mine, but sufficiently meaningful--and moves through Space during some period of time. Ergo, I say, the Almighty--who is neither Space nor Time--does indeed occupy Space and Time; has always done so and will continue to do so forever. And, I say, an Almighty who transcends Space and Time doesn't make sense to me and is, therefore, IMO, nonsense. In such an Almighty, it is possible--as Paul said--to live, move, and have our being. In fact, I can't imagine any other possibility.... unless ...

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