Question for people that believe in evolution

[painted wolf]

See, I have to agree with George here. I can't for the life of me understand how anyone can look at the evolutionary history of life on earth and take away anything about a "creator" except that if one exists, it isn't deserving of any respect.

I suppose if you limit creation and the creative process it can be pretty undeserving.
As an artist and a biologist though, I see things differently.
I also come from a religious position that isn't tied to the western ideas of god and godliness.

What do you "internalize" when you see a male lion kill and eat all the cubs when he takes over a pride?

Sucks to be a lion... but also he is doing his best to maximize his (and his brothers, as a single lion never takes over a pride like that) genetic output and limit the genetic output of a rival.

What do you "internalize" when you see what toxoplasmosis does to a newborn baby?

Hooray for modern medicine... and aren't parasites wonderfully evolved, no matter how horrible their actions may seem to us.

What do you "internalize" when you see evidence of comets and asteroids smashing into the earth and killing almost everything on the planet?

Cosmic bad days happen... But they also open up wonderful niche space for surviving species to diversify and undergo adaptive radiation.

What do you "internalize" when you understand that the inescapable fate of the universe is death?

Everything has its time... it would be awfully boring otherwise. On the plus side death provides materials for new things.. where would we be if the first stars never died?

All I've ever seen from those who say things like "evolution adds to my belief in God" is vague, warm-fuzzy, feel-good platitudes that even a cursory examination shows to be empty. From my perspective, it looks like someone telling themselves, "I really need to believe this, so I'm going to no matter what".

See all I ever really seem to run into is people who are so caught up with the Western image of 'god' that they never seem to be able to step back from it. I don't really need to believe in creator, I just don't yet have any really good reason not to. The First Nations view on Creator is not harmed by science any more than it is harmed by bad book writing.
You seem to have me confused with someone who believes in a book bound, duel-personality complexed, daily life meddling, personal deity. Religion and faith are so much more varied than that.

wa:do

 

[Jose Fly]

I suppose if you limit creation and the creative process it can be pretty undeserving.

I don't know what you mean. It's not a question of "limiting" anything; it's a matter of looking at how things are and how they work.

Sucks to be a lion... but also he is doing his best to maximize his (and his brothers, as a single lion never takes over a pride like that) genetic output and limit the genetic output of a rival.

Sure, it makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint, which is incredibly cruel and indifferent. From a standpoint of how a "creator" does things? Logically the "creator" must also be cruel and indifferent.

Hooray for modern medicine... and aren't parasites wonderfully evolved, no matter how horrible their actions may seem to us.

????? How they "may seem to us"? So it just "seems" like what toxoplasmosis does to newborns is horrible? Just looks that way?

Cosmic bad days happen... But they also open up wonderful niche space for surviving species to diversify and undergo adaptive radiation.

And that's the very best a "creator" could do? Set up a system where "cosmic bad days happen"?

Everything has its time... it would be awfully boring otherwise. On the plus side death provides materials for new things.. where would we be if the first stars never died?

That doesn't make sense. A universe that isn't fated to die would be boring? A creator couldn't come up with a universe that continues to exist without being "boring"?

See all I ever really seem to run into is people who are so caught up with the Western image of 'god' that they never seem to be able to step back from it.

Instead of telling me what you don't believe, how about explaining what you do believe?

You seem to have me confused with someone who believes in a book bound, duel-personality complexed, daily life meddling, personal deity. Religion and faith are so much more varied than that.

No, I knew you were a believer in native, first nation style beliefs. I've seen you refer to this deity as a "creator". So logically, this entity must have created, correct? If so, then the nature of this creation should tell us some things about the nature of the creator.

 

[painted wolf]

I don't know what you mean. It's not a question of "limiting" anything; it's a matter of looking at how things are and how they work.

Of course it is... to you creation is not something that can be ongoing, it must have happened once and that is all.

Sure, it makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint, which is incredibly cruel and indifferent. From a standpoint of how a "creator" does things? Logically the "creator" must also be cruel and indifferent.

Or Creator lets lions evolve as lions... We may not like it, but that doesn't make it cruel.

???? How they "may seem to us"? So it just "seems" like what toxoplasmosis does to newborns is horrible? Just looks that way?

Not to toxoplasma.
I admit it is horrible for us and it should be avoided at all costs... but we are but one of many species and they don't all share our concerns.

And that's the very best a "creator" could do? Set up a system where "cosmic bad days happen"?

Why not? it allows for opportunities for massive evolutionary development. You seem to expect things to be "best" in your favor. Humanocentrism is a poor trait to have when looking at things scientifically.

That doesn't make sense. A universe that isn't fated to die would be boring? A creator couldn't come up with a universe that continues to exist without being "boring"?

I'd get bored. You may want to live forever, but I'm ok with having a good run and then leaving the world to my descendants. What use is today if you have an infinate number of them?

Instead of telling me what you don't believe, how about explaining what you do believe?

That would be inappropriate for this thread... we are simply talking about how I can have spiritual faith as well as scientific knowledge.

No, I knew you were a believer in native, first nation style beliefs. I've seen you refer to this deity as a "creator". So logically, this entity must have created, correct? If so, then the nature of this creation should tell us some things about the nature of the creator.

It does... but you have to avoid limiting the universe to human intrests. Creator and creation are inseperable... the sum of these processes in the universe is Creator. Creation is going on all the time, not in a one off event.

wa:do

 

[Jose Fly]

Of course it is... to you creation is not something that can be ongoing, it must have happened once and that is all.

I never said anything at all like that. I have no idea why you feel the need to project such a thing onto me.

Or Creator lets lions evolve as lions... We may not like it, but that doesn't make it cruel.

Under that framework, is there even such as thing as "cruelty"?

Not to toxoplasma.
I admit it is horrible for us and it should be avoided at all costs... but we are but one of many species and they don't all share our concerns.

Ah, so to this "creator", H. sapiens are no more special, important, or otherwise noteworthy than anything else.

This is likely where we can agree. I would certainly agree that given the history of life on earth and the nature of our universe, any creator-deity that existed would have that trait.

Why not? it allows for opportunities for massive evolutionary development. You seem to expect things to be "best" in your favor. Humanocentrism is a poor trait to have when looking at things scientifically.

See above.

I'd get bored. You may want to live forever, but I'm ok with having a good run and then leaving the world to my descendants. What use is today if you have an infinate number of them?

????? I didn't say anything about people living forever; I specifically pointed out the fate of the universe.

That would be inappropriate for this thread... we are simply talking about how I can have spiritual faith as well as scientific knowledge.

If you refuse to clarify your beliefs, you cannot act indignant when people misunderstand them.

It does... but you have to avoid limiting the universe to human intrests.

Again, I think we can agree to that point.

 

[painted wolf]

I never said anything at all like that. I have no idea why you feel the need to project such a thing onto me.

Then forgive me for misinterpreting you... It seemed to me that was where your concept of creation was.

Under that framework, is there even such as thing as "cruelty"?

There is for us... our evolutionary strategy was to maximize our social behavior. We can only define "cruel" in a limited framework.

Ah, so to this "creator", H. sapiens are no more special, important, or otherwise noteworthy than anything else.

This is likely where we can agree. I would certainly agree that given the history of life on earth and the nature of our universe, any creator-deity that existed would have that trait.

Exactly... all things are equal. We are no more or less important than anything else.

????? I didn't say anything about people living forever; I specifically pointed out the fate of the universe.

The fate of the universe is not certain and any hypothesis about it is just that, a hypothesis. We know far more about the start of the universe than we ever will about the end.

If you refuse to clarify your beliefs, you cannot act indignant when people misunderstand them.

I have no problem with clarifying them... I just don't want to hijack a thread to give a dissertation on them. To explain every facet of my faith would be unproductive here.

Again, I think we can agree to that point.

Glad to see we have some common ground to stand on.

wa:do

 

[Jose Fly]

So it actually seems we agree. I personally have no belief in any sort of "creator" deity. My point is that for those who insist on meshing a belief in such a thing with the history of life on earth and of our universe, the type of creator we're left with is indifferent, uncaring, has no sense of "cruelty", and sees us as no more important or special than anything else that has ever existed in the universe.

The only thing I'm wondering is, why bother with such a construct? What's the point?

 

[painted wolf]

Oh there are a few reasons. Cultural identity, personal preference, the fact that while creator is neutral there are other forces that are not, enjoyment of the art and traditions,agreement with the philosophy ... I could go on but you get the idea.

wa:do

 

[Jose Fly]

Oh there are a few reasons. Cultural identity, personal preference, the fact that while creator is neutral there are other forces that are not, enjoyment of the art and traditions,agreement with the philosophy ... I could go on but you get the idea.

wa:do

To a point, I guess. Cultural identity to me means "I believe it because I was told to and everyone else around me believes it", which strikes me as a kind of peer pressure system. Personal preference...I suppose, although I suspect it overlaps with the cultural identity thing. Pantheism is an interesting concept and might make a bit more sense, e.g. competing deities countering each other's activities, etc.

 

[painted wolf]

To a point, I guess. Cultural identity to me means "I believe it because I was told to and everyone else around me believes it", which strikes me as a kind of peer pressure system.

What about those that seek to rediscover/reconnect to ancestral culture?

Personal preference...I suppose, although I suspect it overlaps with the cultural identity thing. Pantheism is an interesting concept and might make a bit more sense, e.g. competing deities countering each other's activities, etc.

Perhaps, but then again we come back to the fact that evolution does not preclude faith and one can find spiritual inspiration in evolution.

wa:do

 

[Jose Fly]

What about those that seek to rediscover/reconnect to ancestral culture?

You're right. I think I'll become a druid. ;-) Seriously, just because a belief is ancient, that doesn't make it valid or realistic.

Perhaps, but then again we come back to the fact that evolution does not preclude faith and one can find spiritual inspiration in evolution.

People find spiritual inspiration in genocide too.

The point here is not that evolution precludes theism. The point I've been making the last several weeks is that if a deity is responsible, in one way or another, for the evolutionary history of life on earth, what sort of "god" does that leave you with? And as we've agreed, it leaves you with a creator that is indifferent and doesn't even have a sense of cruelty.

 

[painted wolf]

You're right. I think I'll become a druid. ;-) Seriously, just because a belief is ancient, that doesn't make it valid or realistic.

Never said it did... just countering your "peer pressure" statement.

People find spiritual inspiration in genocide too.

Just as some people get non-spiritual inspiration from it... Some humans will use any excuse they can find for killing others. Tempting Godwin's law is poor form.

The point here is not that evolution precludes theism. The point I've been making the last several weeks is that if a deity is responsible, in one way or another, for the evolutionary history of life on earth, what sort of "god" does that leave you with? And as we've agreed, it leaves you with a creator that is indifferent and doesn't even have a sense of cruelty.

We have agreed that that is one interpretation... not the only one.

wa:do

 

[fantome profane]

The point here is not that evolution precludes theism. The point I've been making the last several weeks is that if a deity is responsible, in one way or another, for the evolutionary history of life on earth, what sort of "god" does that leave you with? And as we've agreed, it leaves you with a creator that is indifferent and doesn't even have a sense of cruelty.

Are you assuming that this hypothetical “God” must be omnipotent? Or omniscient?

Would it change the equation at all if you considered the idea that this is the best this deity could do? Or that the deity didn’t see this coming?

 

[Jose Fly]

Never said it did... just countering your "peer pressure" statement.

If most of those around you subscribe to a belief system, there is naturally going to be very strong emotional and social pressure for you to join in. Trying to argue that that's not so is trying to counter reality.

Just as some people get non-spiritual inspiration from it... Some humans will use any excuse they can find for killing others. Tempting Godwin's law is poor form.

??????? I didn't say anything about Nazi's or Hitler. I simply pointed out that people get "spiritual inspiration" from just about anything you can imagine, so appealing to this inspiration is hardly a compelling argument.

We have agreed that that is one interpretation... not the only one.

Ok.

 

[Jose Fly]

Are you assuming that this hypothetical “God” must be omnipotent? Or omniscient?

No. I'm simply looking at the world around us, how it works, its history, and asking "If a god is responsible for all of that, what does that tell us about this god?"

Would it change the equation at all if you considered the idea that this is the best this deity could do? Or that the deity didn’t see this coming?

That this "god" is limited in ability and foresight is certainly one conclusion you could draw.

 

[painted wolf]

That this "god" is limited in ability and foresight is certainly one conclusion you could draw.

Or that your ability to judge gods foresight is.

wa:do

 

[Jose Fly]

Or that your ability to judge gods foresight is

Or not. Please don't go the fundamentalist "Who are you to judge God" route. They play that card whenever they're confronted with accounts of their god directing genocides and such, and I'd hate to think you'd stoop to that.

 

[painted wolf]

Or not. Please don't go the fundamentalist "Who are you to judge God" route. They play that card whenever they're confronted with accounts of their god directing genocides and such, and I'd hate to think you'd stoop to that.

Oh I avoid stooping whenever possible. I'm just pointing out the fact that as a species we are woefully limited in judging our own abilities and planning for any kind of sustainable future... trying to project ourselves to judge a deity is hubris.

nor is any of this to do with the op.

wa:do

 

[Jose Fly]

I'm just pointing out the fact that as a species we are woefully limited in judging our own abilities and planning for any kind of sustainable future... trying to project ourselves to judge a deity is hubris.

Well then, I guess I'll just believe anything and everything about every god, eh? After all, who am I to judge?

 

[painted wolf]

Well then, I guess I'll just believe anything and everything about every god, eh? After all, who am I to judge?

Believe whatever you want it makes no difference to me... just don't tell me what I do and don't believe.

now, back to the op.

Seeing how evolutionary mechanisms yield biological diversity

wa:do

 

[Jose Fly]

Believe whatever you want it makes no difference to me... just don't tell me what I do and don't believe.

I suppose it's a good thing I didn't do that.