Question for trinitarian christians

[sandy whitelinger]

Mark 1:9-11 King james version

9.And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.


10.And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:


11.And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.





So how is this possible? And DO NOT tell me its figurative. There is no reason god would say this unless they are seperate personages.

They're the same but different.

 

[Muffled]

That is what Arias' group taught. "that Christ was a "similar substance" (homoiousios) as the Father."

Orthodox Christianity teaches "that the Son is "of the same substance" (ὁμοούσιος) as the Father." Notice the difference between being just "similar" and being the "same".

In A.D. 325, the First Council of Nicaea debated the denotations of the Greek words homoousios (same substance) and homoiousios (similar substance). Ousia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even "same" falls short. God is not a different entity because He is in Jesus or in us. God is one no matter where He is.

 

[Muffled]

They're the same but different.

This is a tautological false statement.

Different referentail titles do not equate to different persons. I have the title "son" because I am one and the title "father because I am one but I am not two persons.

 

[tomspug]

Mark 1:9-11 King james version

9.And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.


10.And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:


11.And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.





So how is this possible? And DO NOT tell me its figurative. There is no reason god would say this unless they are seperate personages.

Who said the trinity isn't separate personages? That's why it's called three-in-one, not one-in-one. Jesus also said "I am in the Father and the Father is in me". He never said "I am the Father". He said he was the way to the Father.

 

[Katzpur]

They're the same but different.

Come on, Sandy. What kind of an answer is that?

 

[Muffled]

Who said the trinity isn't separate personages? That's why it's called three-in-one, not one-in-one. Jesus also said "I am in the Father and the Father is in me". He never said "I am the Father". He said he was the way to the Father.

I say it because there is no evidence for it in the Bible.

That isn't a quote from the Bible!

That is exactly why He is only one person otherwise the statment would be false.

True but the Father has said it and Jesus said what amounts to the same thing when he answers Philip by saying that he who has seen Jesus has seen the Father.

Duh! Since Jesus is the Father in the flesh then Jesus is the way to Him.

 

[herushura]

Mark 1:9-11 King james version

9.And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
10.And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11.And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
So how is this possible? And DO NOT tell me its figurative. There is no reason god would say this unless they are seperate personages.

God and Jesus are seperate, "Son of God - Son of Man " are comman titles in the old testements and can refer to anyone.

Genesis 6:4
The "Nephilim(Giants-most likely, refers to Kings)" were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the SONS OF GOD went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Job 25:6
how much less man, who is but a maggot— a son of man, who is only a worm!"

Ezekiel 2:1
[ Ezekiel's Call ] He said to me, "Son of man, stand up on your feet and I will speak to you."

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

 

[Muffled]

That is what Arias' group taught. "that Christ was a "similar substance" (homoiousios) as the Father."

Orthodox Christianity teaches "that the Son is "of the same substance" (ὁμοούσιος) as the Father." Notice the difference between being just "similar" and being the "same".

In A.D. 325, the First Council of Nicaea debated the denotations of the Greek words homoousios (same substance) and homoiousios (similar substance). Ousia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Since Jesus says: I and my father are one, then they have to be one substance and Arias is wrong.

However the Bible is quite clear that God is a spirit. That means God is not fleshly and the body of Jesus is not one substance with God. It then leaves the spirit that dwells within the body to say I am one with the Father and that is His true identity not the body although the body has an attached identity temporally. So what I am saying is that the son is represented by the spirit and the body and that combination is not one substance with the Father. However the Holy Spirit (The Spirit of God) is the same spirit in Jesus and in the old testament and in the Paraclete.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Mark 1:9-11 King james version

9.And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.


10.And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:


11.And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.





So how is this possible? And DO NOT tell me its figurative. There is no reason god would say this unless they are seperate personages.

How is what possible? That Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

This is a tautological false statement.

Different referentail titles do not equate to different persons. I have the title "son" because I am one and the title "father because I am one but I am not two persons.

I'll assume, then, that you are not the triune God.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Come on, Sandy. What kind of an answer is that?

Flippant.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Mark 1:9-11 King james version

9.And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.


10.And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:


11.And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.





So how is this possible? And DO NOT tell me its figurative. There is no reason god would say this unless they are seperate personages.

In order for Christ to be able to sacrifice Himself for sin He would need to not be under the curse of death that came upon all men through Adam. In order for that to happen it would need be that Christ recieve his flesh from another source than Adam, ergo, God, as Christ, put on flesh in order to be able to sacrifice Himself.

 

[RomCat]

"He who sees me, sees the Father.
The Father and I are one."
Jesus also said, "He who receives
you, receives me. And he who
receives me receives the Father
who sent me."
Of course we are not the same
substance as God but God's love
for us bridges the gap.

 

[InGodWeTrust]

In order for Christ to be able to sacrifice Himself for sin He would need to not be under the curse of death that came upon all men through Adam. In order for that to happen it would need be that Christ recieve his flesh from another source than Adam, ergo, God, as Christ, put on flesh in order to be able to sacrifice Himself.

What you mean is that his death would have been meaningless if he was no different than us because we are all deserving of death, being sinners? OK, that makes sense, but I do not understand the "flesh" thing.
It sounds like, from your description, that he may have been like anyone being born, but he is given a flesh not, strictly speaking, like ours.
Don't you think Jesus was any different, other than what source of flesh he had?

 

[InGodWeTrust]

"He who sees me, sees the Father. The Father and I are one." Jesus also said, "He who receives you, receives me. And he who receives me receives the Father who sent me."
Of course we are not the same substance as God but God's love for us bridges the gap.

You have two statements that seem to be in opposition to each other. They are one, and one sent the other.
Did he send himself?
There is another verse that says Jesus was sanctified and sent. What does that mean, to you? Being sanctified.

 

[RomCat]

There are Three Persons in God.
But there is only One God.
It is the mystery of the Trinity. A mystery
we can never fully understand even though
we spend all eternity in Heaven contemplating it.
Only the Infinite can understand the Infinite.

 

[InGodWeTrust]

There are Three Persons in God. Only the Infinite can understand the Infinite.

So, is that why there is a godhead? So they can undertand each other? Jesus said he made his Father known to his disciples. Was that just a figure of speach?
How was the Son born? Just curious if you have an opinion on that.
Jesus said he came out of his Father. He also said he would be in us.
How differant are we from God?
I think Jesus would have to be very simalar to us, since he was human. I think it may have been necessary to have a Son in order to have anything about the Father that anyone could directly relate to.

 

[Muffled]

You have two statements that seem to be in opposition to each other. They are one, and one sent the other.
Did he send himself?
There is another verse that says Jesus was sanctified and sent. What does that mean, to you? Being sanctified.

It means to me that Jesus has the Holy Spirit otherwise He would not be Holy.

I have answered this question "Yes" before but now wish to amplify my answer. God wishing to enter a human body isn't sitting around Heaven going "If I wish this to happen why isn't it happening?" God acts. That means that the conception that He created does not aoutmatically have the spirit of God or any other spirit until that spirit is attached to the body. That process of attaching the spirit to the body can be called a sending. God sent His own spirt into the body by attaching it to the body. In the same way He detaches His spirit from the body before the body dies on the cross and in a sense returns it to an unattached state which is called "The Father."

 

[Muffled]

I'll assume, then, that you are not the triune God.

Since there is no Triunity you are correct.

My point is that you can't assume that referential titles prove that there are different persons. If you say God is different from me in this way, you also have to prove that.